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Carstein Playtesting Thread

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
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Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,916
#1
Having found collecting playtesting data all in one thread a bit too confusing, I have decided to create threads for each of the Bloodlines.

In here you should post your experiences using the Bloodline stat changes, powers and optional army lists. You can also post your army lists here for feedback.

Any relevant feedback will be collated in this first post.
 
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
734
#2
Played a 3000 point game with the carsteins yesterday against wood elves . My list had ;

Vampire lord , level 3 , shield , cadaverous cuirass ,crown of the damned , sword of might , book of arkhan , quicksliver , walking death , silver tounged .

Vampire Lord , level 3, sword of battle , shield , nightshroud , staff of damnation , dispel scroll , quicksliver , abomination , walking death .

Blood Dragon , strength of steel , quicksliver , defender , dispel scroll x2 .

Vampire , bsb , flag of the blood keep heavy armour , shield , quicksliver .

Vampire , flaming death , heavy armour , shield , quicksliver , walking death .

Vampire , heavy armour , shield , abomination , quicksliver , power stine , dispel scroll .

Grave Gaurd x18 , Command , Banner of strigos .

Skeletons x28 , Command , Endless nightmare .

Skeletons x28 , Command ,Warbanner .

Zombies x20

Zombies x25

Ghouls x10

Dire Wolves x5

Dire Wolves x5

Black Knights x6 , banner , hellish vigour

The Wood Elves had ;

Highborn , Alter Kindred , bow of loren , pageant of shrikes .

Highborn , wardancer kindred , Blades of loec , amber pendant , elynetts brooch .

Spellsinger , level 2 , staff of sorcery .

Spellsinger , level 2 , dispel scroll x2 .

Spellsinger , level 2 , dispel scroll , deepwood sphere .

Spellsinger , level 2 , calaignors stave , dispel scroll

Glade Gaurd x10

Glade Gaurd x10

Glade Gaurd x10

Glade Riders x5

Dryads x10

Dryads x10

Dryads x10

Scouts x5

Waywatchers x5 , sentinel

Waywatchers x5

Wardancers x10 , command

Wildriders x10 , command , warbanner

Warhawk riders x5

Well , the game went quite badly for me . The powers worked well as they do in other games but the dice gods were not on my side . Maybe its because we played on a game with 5 forests .

Anyway onto a some what battle report .

I won the first turn , which i swiftly took to avoid as much asrai archery as possible . The magic phase kicked off with the bounds to try and draw out the dispel dice . They did no such thing . The wood elf player decided to save ther dice for vanhels . They didnt need to do that . Out of all my invocations to try and make a zombie unit of doom i raised 5 zombies . I then tried vanhels moonwalk which swiftly miscasted and ended the magic phase .
The wood elves charged the black knights , who didnt dare to use there ethereal movement in a forest , with the wild riders and did very little other movement .Te wood elf magic phase was just as uneventful as mine but thet was largely because of my dispel pool and many scrolls . He only managed to cast a single spell on the wild riders giving them more attacks . Then the dreaded shooting phase . The asrai managed to kill noth units of dire wolves , the unit of zombies
and the ghouls . In the combat phase the wild riders mercilessly cut down the black knights .
My next movement phase I charged the wild riders with my skeletons . I finished my movement by moving ever closer to the asrai battle line . This magic phase was more productive . I raised a unit of zombies behind the elves and invoked it to twenty men strong . All my vanhels attempts were dispeled . In combat i achieved some vengence for the knights and destroyed the wild riders
Wood elf turn 2 the wardancers and the warhawks dual charged the zombies i had on the flank . The dryads moved across an the opposite flank while the waywatchers moved to a better sniping position with the alter highborn . In there magic phase the wood elf swiftly miscast killing the spellsinger and two glade gaurd . No spells got through . Their shooting was somewhat less eventfull this turn with almost all archers aiming at the grave gaurd killing 6 of them . In the combat the wardancers did the dance of many attacks and obliterated the zombies overruning perilously close to the other big skeleton unit . The warhawks chose not to over run .
Next turn the zombies charged the archers and the grave gaurd failed a charge ( half an inch out :rolleyes: ) . In the magic phase all i managed was to raise the fallen grave gaurd and miscast again trying to cast vanhels this time i rolled a double 1 on the table and a vampire killed himself along with 3 skeletons . The wizards in this game really suck .
In the combat the zombies beat the glade gaurd who fled into the grave gaurd and were destroyed .
Next asrai turn the wardancers charged the flank of the skeletons while the dryads charged the other unit of skeletons . And te rest of the asrai got as far away from my units as possible . This magic phase was really the only good won of the game . He succesfully cast all spells and I only dispeled one and that was with a scroll :mrgreen: . In the shooting phase the asrai could only shoot at the grave gaurd and killed 1 ! In the combat the wardancer lord challenged one of my vampires i accepted with the champion and the lord did the full 6 wounds for over kill the other wardancers fluffed all there attacks and i killed two with skeletons . Thanks to walking death i won the combat by one but the wardancers held . The dryads amazingly also did very little . I only lost that combat by one .
Next turn I charged some archers with the generals unit . The archers failed there fear and swiftly ran off the table with a spellsinger . In the magic phase i miscast yet again wounding a vampire . Combat phase i beat the dryads by who fled and one was cut down . The wardancer lord challenged again . A lord accepted and was killed . In revenge i killed 2 more wardancers . The wardancers held again .
The asrai charged with the warhawks against the skeletons and the dryads rallied . The asrai magic was severely blunted and no spells were cast . Te shootin phase took 12 grave gaurd . In combat the asrai beat the skeletons by a long way and the unit was brought down to 10 models .
My next turn i charged more glade gaurd eho fled off the table carrying another spellsinger . I also charged the two remaining dryad units . magic did nothing . I lost both combats . One skeleton unit was destroyed and the other brought down to 20 men .
Final turn of the game the asrai charged the grave gaurd with the war dancers . the magic gave bupkiss and the shooting had nothing to shoot at . In the final combat my lord and his were in a challenge . I killed his lord and finished off his wardancers . I also managed to kill one unit of dryads .
The game ended in a minor victory to him . If i didnt spend so many points on dispel power and my magic wasnt as horrible as it was maybe the game would have been different .
My opponent thought that this list was better than the official one so thats a result .
Sorry for the overly long post .
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#3
I just realised that I never replied to this - very rude of me :redface:

Thank you for the feedback, however could you comment more on the powers, what your opponent thought?

Also is there a chance of more games where perhaps you could use some of the more poweful Carstein powers?
 
Joined
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Messages
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#4
No worries about the belated reply .
On the more powerful powers I'm already planning a game for next week using the true blood power . The reason I never tried the master of storms is because I find it hard to just leave my lord standing still but I will try it as well next week .
The powers on a whole were alright but quick sliver might be a little cheap . I think silver tongue might make more sense if only your general could have it because I think that they would probably be a better orator than their thralls . The one foible my opponent had was the blood dragon thrown in .
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#5
Ok, well I look forward to seeing your next report then. Yes it seems that Quicksliver may be too cheap or perhaps shouldn't be included at all......
 
Joined
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Messages
19
#6
If you dont mind answering this question, but unless i've missed something... The Carstein list does not include a price for a Nightmare (unless you have to buy Dread Knight), however, it does include a price for barding...

If i've missed the price of the various steeds, please could you fill me in?

Thanks :)
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
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#8
So I finally got off my butt and got a game in the other day. I also have a game schedulded for today. First game was Dwarves, but I'm not telling you the outcome yet (you have to wait)! Second game today is unknown (for sure), it'll likely be Dark Elves, since that's the toughest army my opponent has.

Here's my list for both games:

2 said:
Drakkon von Carstein (Lord)
- Lord of the Dead, Crown of the Damned, Book of Arkhan, Dispel Scroll, Magic Level 3, Great Weapon, Rightful Ruler, Aura of Command, Silver Tongue

Karl von Carstein, BSB
- Walking Death; Walach's Bloody Hauberk, Great Weapon, Vampiric Aura

Malice von Carstein
- Talisman of Lycni, Flayed Hauberk, Black Periapt, Great Weapon, Beast Affinity

Rand the Slaughterer (Blood Dragon Vampire)
- Enchanted Shield, Balefire Spike, Dispel Scroll, Full Plate, Barded Warhorse, Horsemaster, Strength of Steel, Quicksilver

15 Skeleton Warriors, Standard; Champion, Banner of Hellfire
15 Skeleton Warriors; Standard; Champion, War Banner
10 Skeleton Warriors, Champion
3 Fell Bats
10 Dire Wolves, Doom Wolf
Corpse Cart, Unholy Loadstone

17 Grave Guard; Standard; Champion, Banner of the Barrows
6 Black Knights, Standard; Champion, Royal Standard of Strigos

Total Army Cost: 2,249
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#9
A very nice looking list there Bishop - it looks like you have gone with the standard army list? Look forward to seeing the results.
 

Bishop

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#10
Been really busy as of late. But, as promised here are the results of the first game I had last weekend.

My list is posted above...

Opponents list is:
Dwarf Lord - Sheildbearers, 4+ ward, +1 To, Flaming Attacks, Double Str. Sh
BSB - +1 CR, range 12"
Runesmith - dispel scroll, +1 Str, Flaming akts, +1 save, Sh
Runesmith - PD stealing item, +1 save, Flaming atks, Sh, GW

10 Xbows, Sh, Mus
10 Thunderers, Sh, Mus
10 Thunderers, Sh, Mus
19 Warriors, FC, Sh, GW
19 Ironbreakers, FC, Immune to Terror, MR1
18 Hammerers, FC, MR1, +1 CR
Cannon, Eng
2 Bolt Thowers, Eng

Deployment:
Dwarves L-R
XBows (flanked by a swamp on the left side), Ironbreakers, Hammers, Warriors, Thunders (in front of the hill that the 2 BTs and Cannon were on), Thunders off to the side of the hill (facing forward though).

VC L-R
Skeletons (Cart behind), Grave Guard (Skel Bunker behind), Skeletons, Rock formation, Wolves (Black Knights behind), Fell Bats (hding behind some rocks).

Only other terrain that will matter is some rocks in front of the Bats, ruins in front of the Wolves, and trees near the XBows.

Spells:
Drakkon: IoN, Gaze, Curse, Summon Horde
Karl: IoN, Raise Dead (dropped Wind)
Malice: IoN, Gaze
Rand: IoN

VC 1st Turn:
Move: Summon Wolves, and moved them up the flank of the art hill. Managed to get past the Thunderers (ie in their flank). Wolves and Knights marched forward, Bats over the hill. The main force just moved forward 4".
Magic: Only spell off was Gaze of Nagash at the Cannon... killed 3 crew and Wounded the Cannon.

Dwarves 1st turn:

Minimal movement. Iron breakers and Hammers moved forward slightly, Warriors angled toward the Knights.
Shooting: Cannonball stuck in the ground. BTs killed a single Knight. Thunderers killed half the big Wolf unit, and all of the Bats. XBows killed a couple Grave Guard.

VC 2nd turn:
Both Wolves charged the flank unit of Thunderers (no S&S due to range). Malice snuck through the line and charged a BT. Knights charged the Warriors.
Magic: Managed to get a Curse of Years off on the Hammers... 3 of them died!
CC: Wow.. did VERY well. Wolves forced the Tunderes to flee... overran into the BT that Malice was fighting. Dead BT. Knights did 9 wounds to the Warriors... barely managed to break them (with the BSB reroll). Knight overrun into the other BT.

Dwarves 2nd turn:
Moves: Hammers and Irons move forward.. looks just shy of my charge range. XBows rotate around for something to do (since the other dwarf moves and terrain block forward LoS).
Magic: Dispelled Curse
Shooting: Malice killed by the Sniper Cannon
CC: Wolves and Thunderers both fan... I lose by Musician, 1 wolf dies. Knights kill off the other BT and then run off the table (hatred).

VC 3rd turn:
Move: Other Wolves rear charge then Thunderers. Knights back on the board moving toward he rear of the hammerers. My main force holds their ground.
Magic: Only spell was an IF Gaze at the Cannon... probably a good thing!
CC: Wolves break the Thunderers and run them down.

Dwarves 3rd turn:
MOves: Iron Breakers turn around and move slightly to try and intercept the knights. The Hammers march forward and turn slightly (again trying to avoid the knights.)
Shooting: XBows at the Knights, 1 Knight dies

VC 4th turn:
MOves: I moved the main line back, moved the knight out of the LOS of the Ironbreakers.. the dwarf player was not impressed.
Magic: Only thing I got off was an IoN, raising back the 2 Grave Guard that died.

Dwarf 4th turn:
Moves: Dwarf player grumbled, and decided that there was no point if I was just going to avoid his units. He decided to concede.

Thoughts (only on the powers that actually came up):

Beast Affinity:
Me - I like it. Adds a nice von Carstein feel. Seems point costed fairly. It's just unfortunate that it's the only power you can have if taken on a Hero.
Him - Seems a little powerful. After letting him know its 50 points, one shot, limited range. He seemed okay with the power level.

Silver Tongue:

Me - It allows a little flexibility in a list which should have a fair number of connections to other vampire persons/families.
Him - indifferent.

Aura of Command:
Me - Seems balanced. Adds a bit of flexibility to your deployment.
Him - 25 pts seems fair for that ability.

Blood Dragon Powers:
Me - individually they seem point costed fine. When using them all together, could start to be busted.
Him - his thoughts are similar in regards to ability stacking. Having only IoN seems a good compromise for added combat ability.

The other Powers never came up in game.

Overall:
Me - Like the feel of the list. Will be using the list variation in my next battle as well. Hopefully that will improve the feel even more.
Him - Really likes that the list chooses a focus and plays different then alot of VC lists. Magic didn't seem that unbalanced without having access to all kinds of bonus spells and power dice.


Report 2 to follow... hopefully tommorrow night.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
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Messages
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#11
My expecte opponent was a no show... thankfully I was still able to get a game in though. Without further ado...

Von Carstein list

Drakkon von Carstein (Lord)
- Lord of the Dead, Crown of the Damned, Book of Arkhan, Dispel Scroll, Great Weapon
- Rightful Ruler, Aura of Command, Silver Tongue
Karl von Carstein, BSB
- Walking Death; Walach's Bloody Hauberk, Great Weapon, Vampiric Aura
Malice von Carstein
- Talisman of Lycni, Flayed Hauberk, Black Periapt, Great Weapon, Beast Affinity
Rand the Slaughterer (Blood Dragon)
- Enchanted Shield, Balefire Spike, Dispel Scroll, Full Plate, Barded Warhorse, Horsemaster, Strength of Steel, Quicksilver

15 Skeleton Warriors - Champion, Banner of Dead Legion
15 Skeleton Warriors - Champion, War Banner
10 Skeleton Warriors - Champion
3 Fell Bats
6 Dire Wolves - Scout
9 Dire Wolves - Doom Wolf

17 Grave Guard - Halberd; Champion, Banner of the Barrows

6 Black Knights - Barding; Champion, Royal Standard of Strigos

Total Army Cost: 2,250

VC Spells:
Drakkon: IoN, Raise Dead (drop Curse), Van Hel's, Gaze
Karl: IoN, Curse
Malice: IoN, Van hel's
Rand: ION


LM list - 2250

Saurus Oldblood - Light Armour; Shield, Blade of Revered Tzunki, Glyph Necklace, Carnosaur
Skink Priest - Heaven 2, Diadem of Power, Dispel Scroll
Skink Priest - Heaven 2, Dragonfly of Quicksilver, Cube of Darkness

10 Skink Skirmishers w/Blowpipes
10 Skink Skirmishers w/Blowpipes
16 Skinks w/ 2 Krox - Javelin; Shield; FC
15 Saurus Warriors - FC
15 Saurus Warriors - FC

3 Terradons
9 Chameleon w/Blowpipe
6 Cold One Cavalry - FC, War Banner

Ancient Stegadon

Total Army Cost: 2,246

LM Spells:
Thunder Bolt, Comet
Portent, Forked Lightning

Deployment (L-R)
LM - Skink w/Priest (in Forest), Steg, Saurus, Cold Ones, Skinks/w Krox and the other Priest, Saurus, Skinks (in Ruins), Terradons (behind ruins).. his Scouts (in these Ruin as well, he didn't have anything better)
VC - Black Knights w/Rand (in lake), Skeletons w/BotDL, Skelton bunker w/Drakkon (in Ruin), Grave Guard w/Karl (also in ruin), Skeleton w/Warbanner, Wolves w/Mailce (in a fenced field), Bats (also in field)... my scouting wolves (barely) managed to squeeze in the far left corner near the skinks in the forest.

I won the Turn roll

VC turn 1
Malice Summmons 6 Wolves. They got LoS on some of the skinks in the ruins, so they charge.

Moves: Scout wolves march along the back edge to march block some stuff. Knights move across the pond, main force moves forward, staggering formation a little, bunker moves to the edge of the ruin, wolves cross the field, bats move around the flank of the ruin that the skinks/terradons are hiding in.

Magic: Cursed the Krox/Skinks (he tossed 4 DD but failed), wounded priest, 1 krox, killed the champ and 4 skinks. Open season other then scrolls... Raise Dead, then 2/3 Ions and I raised 17 or so Zombies slightly angled in front of (about 10-11") the Cold Ones. He was saving his scroll for the Van Hel's.. which Malice cast.. with Irresistable force! The Bats charged the Terradons.

CC: Wolves forced an insane break test, Skink failed and were run down.. Wolves into the Terradons. Bats and Wolves forced the Terradons to break, Bats ran them off the table. I losted 2 wolves during those fights!! Score one for the creatures of the night :D

LM Turn 1
Moves: Cold Ones charged the zombies, the Steg failed a charge on the Knights (was an inch short). Saurus and Skink blocks moved up and angled outwards (since I was angled inwards). Skinks in forest moved toward the scout Wolves.

Magic: Forked lightning the scout wolves, half of the unit died. Thunderer bolt at the Grave Guard... I dispelled. He tried to dispel the Curse on 2 DD and failed... I stored a die in the Periapt.

Shooting: scout wolves and the summonned wolves both died to blowpipe poisoned death.

CC: Cold Ones and the Oldblood maim a pile of Zombies... rest crumble and die.

vc Turn 2
Moves: Black Knights/Rand charge the Steg, Skeleton Dead Legion and Grave Guard charge the Cold ones/Oldblood, Malice and Wolves charge a Saurus unit. Bats return. Bunker moves up to keep Drakkon in range. War Skeletons also move up towards the Krox/Skink.

Magic: Malice cast Van Hels (high number) at the War Skeletons, opponent decides to use the Cube.. but fails the d6 roll. So, Magic continues (I wondered why he didn't try harder to dispel the Curse last turn). Drakkon Van Hel's on the War Skeletons, dispeled. But he's open now... Van Hel's on the War Skeletons, charging the Skink/Krox. Book of Arkhan on the Grave Guard, ASF and rerolls. Bank a dice in Periapt. CUrse kills a Krox and another Skink.

CC: Rand almost drops the Steg himself (4 wounds), the Black Knights finish the giant dino off... then overrun into the unengaged Saurus unit. Oldblood challnges, skeleton champion is retarded, erm accepts! Oldblood rips the skeleton to bits (5 wounds)! GG w/HWs... 4 KB wounds!! Karl finishes off the Cold Ones. Old blood loses by a crap pile and breaks and gets away. GG into the Krox fight... they take down the Krox, Skinks flee and Skeletons run them down. Saurus fighting the Wolves/Malice pass their insane break test.

LM turn 2
MOves: Oldblood Rallies, Skinks in forest move towards the knights, Chem Skinks move towards the Bats

Magic: Lightning, Dispelled

Shooting: Ninja Skinks kill off the Bats

CC: Knights/Rand run down what little was left of the Saurus. Malice/Wolves lost by 3, but only suffered one crumble due to Karls nearby presence.

VC turn 3
Moves: Both Skeleton units charge the Oldblood, GG charges into the Saurus to give those Wolves a hand. Knights turn around and move to block the "flight" path of teh Oldblood (if he flees again). Lords bunker marches foward.

Magic: Malice tried 3 IoNs only one cast and it was Dispelled. Van Hels on the Wolves (Malice has a GW). Couple IoNs at the Legion Skeletons... raised the unit up to 21 models.

CC: Skeleton Champ challenges, the Oldblood has to accept. Champ takes 5 wounds, VC win by one.. Oldblood passes his test. GG and 2 Vamps with GWs almost kill the Saurus, the last couple left flee and are cut down.

With the Oldblood trapped in CC with 35 Skeletons and soon to be the Black Knight unit of death.. and only having 2 units of skink skirms left, my opponent choose to concede (it was time to go home anyways).

Thoughts on powers:

Mine: Nothing really has changed from the last fight regarding my view of the Powers.

Him:

Rightful Ruler: seems appropriate for a general, maybe cost should be 55 points simply to restrict it to Lords only. Didn't effect too much, but it would have had more effect if not for the 3d6 Ld tests.

Aura of Command: seems fine for point cost and ability

Silver Tongue: appropriate for a diplomatic type Vampire

Vampiric Aura: seems fine, same cost as a BSB, less ability and less range so the stacking is fine.

Strength of Steel: +1 Str for 10 pts seems a less low for point cost, only on the charge maybe balances it out

Quick Silver: +1 Atk is nasty on a combat related Vampire. At 20 points, seems like a bargain

Horsemaster: looks fine, though Bret players might take offense to it :D

Beast Affinity: seems good and balance in general, maybe add something to prevent 1st turn charges.

Opponents thoughts in General: he liked the fact that it was a balanced and themed list. Nothing overly powerful, nice and fluffy, and even though he only had 2 hero casters the magic didn't take over the game like it probably would have with a normal VC list.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
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Messages
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#12
Hopefully I'll get another game in next weekend.

Anything you think I should change or add to the list for playtest purposes?
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#13
Do you think you could use the Carstein Army List options, like the Drakenhof Guard etc? It would be good to see those rules work.

In regards to powers, no one has tried the Master of Storms yet. Perhaps you could try that against a shooty army, so how it fares?

Still thank you for the feedback, especially the level of detail you are going into. Do you think you would be able to test any of the other lists as well?
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
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Messages
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#14
Thanks, taking notes during game play mostly in order to get that detail... and the write-up might have acrually taken longer then the game play :|

For options, I had some Scout Wolves, as well as Halberds on the GG. As for D.Guard, IMO they are too pricey... but I can see if I can squeeze them in.

As for Master of storms, that seems more of a bunkered up defensive type power. If I get the chance aginst a shooty army, I'll give it a go... other then that it's simply not my playstyle, which is why I haven't really looked at it.

For other lists... I could maybe look at Lahmian, possibly Strgoi (though online only, since I haven't got the ghouls for that list) :D I'll look at those after getting in my 3rd von Carstein game, hopefully next weekend. Really trying to keep a lot of this the same on purpose, for playtesting.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
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Messages
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#15
So, planning to have a game tonight using this list (not sure what I'm playing against yet... but I'll try not to adjust the list from this one, unless I get a chance to squeeze in Master of Storms vs a shooty opponent).

2 said:
Characters (1,045)

Drakkon von Carstein (Lord) @ 468
- Rightful Ruler, Aura of Command, Lord of the Dead, Crown of the Damned, Book of Arkhan, Helm of Commandment, Full Plate, Shield, Level 3

Malice von Carstein @ 221
- Beast Affinity, Talisman of Lycni, Sword of Might, Dispel Scroll, Full Plate, Shield, 2nd Hand Weapon

Vaul von Carstein @ 206
- Wolf Form, Walking Death, Dispel Scroll, Black Peripat, Full Plate, Shield, Great Weapon

Wight Lord BSB @ 150
- Sword of Kings, Enchanted Shield, Full Plate

Core (553)

15 Skeletons w/ Champion, Banner of the Dead Legion @ 161
10 Skeletons w/ Champion @ 88
10 X-Bowmen w/ Musician @ 85
10 Archers w/ Musician @ 55
9 Wolves w/ Champion @ 82
9 Wolves w/ Champion @ 82

Special (651)

10 Grave Guard w/ Champion @ 132
10 Grave Guard w/ Champion @ 132
14 Drakenhof Guard w/ Champion, Drakenhof Banner @ 387


Rare ( 0 )
That's right.. ZERO


Casting Pool: 7
Dispel Pool: 6
Models in Army: 101

Total Army Cost: 2,249
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
2,887
#16
VC list is previous post:
Drakkon - IoN, Gaze of Nagash, Curse of Years, Summon Undead Horde
Malice - IoN, Gash of Nagash
Vaul - IoN, Gash of Nagash

Opponent's List:
Beastmen - 2.25k

Beastlord - Gnarled Hide, Enchanted Shield, Stonecrusher Mace, Heavy Armour
Gorbull - Brass Cleaver, Ram Horn Helm, Heavy Armour, Shield, 2HWs
Shaman - Hagtree Fetish, Dispel Scroll, Viletide, Breyscream
Shamn - Staff of Darkoth, Dark Hand of Death, Drain Life

5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds
6 Raiders, Mus
6 Raiders, Mus
10 Gor, FC
10 Gor, FC
2 Tuskagor chariots

3 Minos, GWs + Sh, Champ
3 Minos, 2HW + Sh

Gorgon
Cygor

Terrain / Deployment
I won the side choice. L-R my side was Rock formation, Hill, Ruined village. Beast side was Forest, Hill, Lake.

L-R VC - Archers in rock formation, Wolves w/Vaul, GG, DG/WK (w/XBows behind on the Hill), Skeletons (w/Drakkons bunker Skeletons behind), GG, Wolves w/Malice around the Ruins.\

L-R Beasts - Raiders w/Shaman in Forest, GW Minos, Gorgon, Chariot, Gors w/Beastlord, 2HW Minos w/Gorbull, (cygor on the Hill), Chariot, Hounds, Raiders (partially in the lake), Hounds

I also won the turn roll.

VC turn 1
Move: Malice summons 5 wolves, they charge the Raiders that were sticking out of the lake. Both wolf units move up about 10 inches, the rest of the undead march forward. Archers move to the front edge of the rock formation.
Magic: Vaul casts Gaze at the Raiders in the Forest, rolls an 11 (on 2 dice). Opponent dispels on 4 DD... and fails! 4 Raiders are killed.. the Raiders fail their break test and flee off the table (one less Shaman). The rest of the Magic phase is open (less a scroll). Everything else goes through. IoN some Skeletons, Gaze some Gors (only 2 die), Curse on the Gorgon fails.
Shooting: Odd to have a shooting phase. XBows do a couple wounds on the BLs Gors, Arrows do a single wound on the GW Minos.
CC: The Wolves only kill a single Raider and force an insane test. They fail and flee 3 inches. The Wolves cut down the 5 remaining Raiders and force both Hound units to panic... they both fail and flee off the table. WOW.. go Wolves!

Beasts turn 1
Moves: Everything moves up, Chariots hanging back a couple inchs from the main line.
Magic: Viletide gets dispeled
Shooting: The Cygor hits and Wounds 7 DG. 2 Passed the Regen test.
CC: n/a

VC turn 2
Moves: Drakkon almost failed is Stupidity test (rolled a 10). Vaul charges out of the Wolf unit (past the mainline) and into a Chariot. Malice and the Wolves charge the other chariot. The main force of Undead move forward, the summoned wolves swim across the pond. Vauls wolves move to go around the GW minos.
Magic: Everyone passed their Cygor Ld tests. Drakkon IoN'd a few times to get the DG almost back up to full. Van hel's got dispelled. Nothing really eventful this turn.
Shooting: Same targets as last round, and similar effect (1 wound on Gors, 1 wound on Minos)
CC: Vaul smashed the Chariot to little bits (GW). Malice and the Wolves killed the other chariot (barely) on wounds. Everything that took panic tests passed.

Beasts turn 2
Moves: Gorgon charges some GG, Minos/Bull charge the DG, Gor w/Shaman charge the Skeletons, GW Minos move toward the Archers, BL Gor move to be in position to support the Gorgon or the Minos if need be (they couldn't reach/fit). The Cygor turns towards all the flanking wolves.
Magic: Dispelled again
Shooting: The Cygor drops a rock on Drakkons bunker, killing off 7 Skeletons (ouch)
CC: Gorgon (is a nasty combat monster) managed to kill off all 4 GG that could have faught back... so they lost by 3. The Minos pounded the crap out of the DG (man that Gorbull has lots of attacks), though some good Regen rolls allowed for only a couple casualities. DG/WK attacks back managed a couple of wounds. My static combat res forced a break test, which was FAILED (due to Drakkons Rightful ruler ability, the Beast player was not amused!). The Minos fled, but managed to escape from the DG. The Gor kill off some skeletons, and then a few more fall to combat res.

VC turn 3
Moves: Other GG charge the Gors fighting the Skeletons. Vaul charges the Gorgon, Malice and the wolves charge the Cygor. Vauls wolves move around the Minos and towards the BL Gors (flank). The DG charge the Minos, they flee some more.
Magic: Drakkon gets off an IF Summon Horde and raises the GG and DG back to full and replensishes his bunker a little. Some IoN fill the Skeletons back up. The Book gets dispeled again, but lives on.
Shooting: The archers and (some) XBows fire at the Minos moving at the archers. A single wound.
CC: (Helm the DG) Vaul/GG do quite a few wounds to the Gorgon who in turn pounds the crap out of the GG. Gorgon passes his stubborn test. The Skeletons and the GG beat the crap out of the Gors the Gor flee into some wolves and die. The Cygor takes 4 wounds and then kills Malice.

Beasts turn 3
Moves: Minos rally, other Minos charge the Archers (who S&S, and manage to actually wound). The BL/Gor charge the flank of the Skeleton unit.
Magic/Shooting: n/a
CC: (I helmed the GG) Gorgon Split his attacks between Vaul and the GG. Though he only managed a single wound on Vaul, a couple GG died... then Vaul cut the giant beast down. The Wolves managed to drag the last wound off the Cygor. The Minos kill off a pile off archers, but they manage to hold (somehow).

VC turn 4
Moves: DG charge the Mino/Bull, some wolves move to block the flee path of the Gor/BL unit. GG and Vaul charge the flank of the BL/Gor unit.
Magic: Just replenshing units back.
Shooting: n/a
CC: the Archers lose to the Mino and flee, the Mino/Bull unit got owned (I had way above average Regen rolls again)... Mino/Bull flee off the table! The Gor/BL unit gets owned by the GG (helm) and Vaul. They lose horribily and flee and are cut down by wolves (and Vaul).

We packed it in.

Thoughts on units/options:
Both of us: None of the unit options seemed overpowering. Seeing shooty units was odd.
Him: a lot of characters with extra weapon/armour options (maybe too many)

Thoughts on powers:
Mine: Nothing really has changed regarding my view of most Powers. Though, I think that Rightful Ruler should be restricted some how. I have seen it's effect in game. I don't know if the best answer is 55 points, or "general" only, or "one per army"... but I could see having several Vamps with this power being very broken.

Him:
Rightful Ruler: Nice for general, maybe a little under-costed. Certainly can be gaming breaking (vs some armies)
Aura of Command: seems fine
Beast Afinity: Can be pretty powerful. Though at 50 points for a one use power might be okay (the other part of the ability was never used)
Wolf Form: its fine, perhaps restrict armour use

Thoughts in general - List is VERY different from most VC lists.

Other then the Rightful Ruler being game turning, it was mostly bad/good dice rolling issues that makes it seems SO lopsided.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,916
#17
:siren:Initial Playtesting Review:siren:

The below comments are a roundup of previous made comments. If a power or item is not noted below, it is either not been commented on, or it received positive comments. I have only noted the things which have been noted that need changing, or players have asked questions.

  • Rightful ruler – Think that possible it should be limited to Lords only, as against certain opponents it can be very powerful. Possible raise to 55pts?
  • Quicksilver was again noted as being too cheap or effective.
  • Concerns that Beast Affinity was perhaps too powerful – though nothing concrete or suggested changes.
  • Master of Storms was noted that it was only useful against shooting enemies, and even then overlooked for other options
  • Other than that no complaints, though this list was tested very little – further playtesting is definitely needed.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,916
#18
My Thoughts

Agree on increasing Rightful Ruler to 55pts. It seems fitting only the more powerful Carsteins will exert this much influence.

As mentioned elsewhere, drop Quicksilver entirely.

Playtest Beast Affinity more.

Consider dropping Master of Storms entirely. With Beast Affinity, Rightful Ruler and True Blood there are 3 high level powers. Consider replacing MoS with a lower level power.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
2,887
#19
Rightful Ruler - this could be made Lord Only, in lieu of raising the point value... either works fine.

Beast Affinity - I found that I was able to get off quite a few first turn charges against some nice targets. Not sure how to fix this. The only thing I can compare it to is the similar power from the SoC campaign list, where the summoned wolves come on the table edge and were thus unable to charge. If changed in this fashion, the cost would have to be lowered though, as it would not be nearly as useful.

Agree with the rest of that.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,916
#20
So do you think Beast Affinity needs further checking, or should it be changed?

Well if we decided 50pts was ok for Rightful Ruler, we can simply make it Lord Only.

Any ideas for an alternative, lower pointed power to Master of Storms?
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
2,887
#21
I think Beast Affinity is probably okay... just caught some ppl by surprise with the 1st turn charge. I basically never used the "raising bonus" more then once or twice total over my three games... so that probably balances it out.

I'll put some thought into possible alternate ideas..
 
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
84
#22
master of storms could grant a free forked lightning spell in the magic phase/shooting phase.


beast affinity could be changed so that you cannot have enough wolves to break ranks...d3+1 or a static 4 wolves? as it is, average 6 wolves would normally cost 48 points, even without the ability to appear/charge.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,916
#23
I like the idea of the forked lighting. We could keep the storm concept, but just totally rethink the idea to make it more useful.

I'm not sure about changing the Beast Affinity, considering it has not yet shown to be broken.....
 
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