conceptual prep for homebrew VC supplements for TOW

[Sception]

ok, so none of us have seen the pdf rules yet. they're supposed to be 'as detailed' and as play tested as the core faction rules (not counting arcane journal additions), but that leaves some questions up in the air, including:

1) will there be bloodline rules?

2) will ghoul kings be an option/variant for vampire heroes & lords, or will they be fully separate unit entries?

Some things are reliable though. For instance, the pdfs won't include special characters. The pdfs will as include a single muster/roster/army list that covers the army as broadly as possible - ie, the expected units will be core, special, rare & so on.
It'll be up to the community to write and settle on an arcane journal, and while the official ones aren't out yet, they've been previewed & reviewed enough to get a sense of what's expected from them:

1. a few special characters

2. exactly two 'army of infamy' variant muster/roster/lists

3. some variant units tied the armies of infamy

4. faction specific magic items, some of which are tied to the armies of infamy.

For a hypothetical homebrew vamp count arcane journal, obviously we would want to include bloodline rules if they aren't in the pdf already, though again there's an open question there in terms of whether ghoul kings should be generic vamp heroes with strigoi bloodline rules layered on top or if they should be separate units sltogether due to the more extreme differences in stats, mount, and equipment options. That's something that'll be answered for us by the PDF, not really something that can be anticipated in advance.

For special characters, the obvious choices are Kemmler, Krell, and the Von Carsteins - they had the most recent official models after all. But that's already maybe too many, and also I would argue that since none of the named Von Carsteins were active in the official time period of tOW, that instead of going in the arcane journal they should go in a separate homebrew 'historical campaign' supplement covering the Vampire Wars specifically.

If we leave the Von Carstein crew out, they we could just go with Kemmler & Krell. Two special characters is plenty, and as non-vampires they have the appeal ot being equally playable regardless of your bloodline. However, it is a little odd to have a vampire arcane journal with no named vampires in it. Do we just start off with the big vamps in Abhorash, Neferata, & Ushoran, despite the lack of clear rules & models to draw from in previous editions? Is Melchior still kicking around, or has he been replaced by Nicodemus at this point?

...

That's special characters, but what about the 'armies of infamy'? Again, I'd be inclined to leave Von Carstein stuff for a Vampire Wars campaign supplement, but even without them we still have the Lahmia, Blood Dragon, Necrarch bloodlines, and Strigoi which might be a bloodline and might be separate units altogether, all of which would like to have their own armies of infamy, though some might need them more than others.

Potentially multiple bloodlines could be covered by a single 'vampire covens' army of infamy centering vampire units & downplaying lesser undead. I could see both Blood Dragons and Lahmians working with core blood knights.

There's also potentially room for a necromancer or wight king led 'no vampires' variant. That's something that people always want, and if the core vampire count pdf centers vampires then a no-vampire variant list might outright require an army of infamy.

We could break with convention & simply have more armies of infamy than official arcane journals, but imo that makes general community acceptance less likely.

If I had to pick exactly two armies of infamy for the arcane journal and we *weren't* segregating all Von Carstein biz to a separate supplement, then I'd say the two Armies of Infamy should be Von Carstein citizen levy with a mix of living and undead empire troops, plus a no-vampires at all Necromancers & Wights undead horde. If we *are* putting Von Carstein stuff in a campaign book, then personally I'd trade their AoI out for a dedicated Strigoi / Ghoul King RoI, as Strigoi are probably the most deviant bloodline from the core vampire counts army and thus most in need of a separate muster. Plus there's lots of room for expanding them with extra units borrowed from AoS. But going with Strigoi and Necromancers as the variant armies, like going with just Kemmler & Krell for special characters, would mean a vampire counts arcane journal where the actual vampires aren't getting much attention or focus. Apart from maybe bloodline rules, but those might be in the pdf already.

..........

So what are you all thinking so far? Is splitting off the von carsteins into a separate 'historical campaign' book a good idea or not? how many and which armies of infamy do you think a homebrew vc arcane journal should include? Which special characters? Should the focus be doubling down on the vampires themselves, or should it be extending rules support to the non-vampire armies that will probably be the least supported by the core VC pdf rules?

 

[Sception]

The Vampire Counts PDF is out!!! - https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/X3y3hHl0yayZi2AK.pdf

Quick, surface level observations:

• Vampiric Powers are included, but Bloodlines are not
• Strigoi ghoul kings are a separate, lord-level unit. Unlike regular vampires there is no hero-evel equivalent
• There are lord and hero level wight characters
• Compared to official factions, or at least to tomb kings, there are a lot of restricted units. Every single special and rare unit have some sort of cap on how many you can take in addition to the points limits. Some units even have either-or restrictions (eg 0-1 grave guard OR black knight unit per 1,000 points; 0-1 Crypt Horror OR Fell bat unit per 1,000 points). Some units have non-scaling restrictions (eg 0-3 corpse carts regardless of army size). All of these restrictions together make the list feel inflexible at first glance.

Obviously the first thing we'd want to work out for homebrew rules expansions is Bloodlines, but there are a few options to consider when implementing them.

1. We could just layer bloodlines on top of the base army list
2. We could implement bloodlines as part of specific 'armies of infamy', ie Von Carsteins, Blood Dragons, Lahmians, Necrarchs, and Strigoi would each have their own 'Army of Infamy', and bloodline powers would be restricted to those.

Number 1 is easier, cleaner, and doesn't require us to break the usual cap of 2 armies of Infamy per arcane journal. It's also much faster, we could put a separate set of bloodline rules in the arcane journal and have all bloodlines instantly playable without having to wait for separate development and desting of five different armies of infamy.

Number 2 is more in depth and lets us get around some of the problems with the default army list being a bit too inflexible to adaquately represent specialized bloodline theme list (eg, it's hard to make a blood dragon army with blood knights as a 0-1 rare choice per thousand points). You could fidget with some of that with a layer-on bloodline system anyway, but it's more elegant and fits within the established design space to do that sort of thing via armies of infamy. My leaning at the moment is toward option 2, especially since that also lets us introduce entirely new units, like ghoul princes or crypt flayers for strigoi. Heck, you could even throw in units from other factions, Von Carstein could get a few specific empire units, Lahmian's could get some tomb king units, etc.

These options aren't mutually exclusive either. We could put a layer of bloodline rules in the Arcane Journal to apply to the pdf army list, then separately support each of the bloodlines with armies of infamy afterwards.

....

The other open question, regardless of the answer to the first, is whether Bloodlines should be implemented as just a handful of unique powers, or whether they should also entail default changes to vampire stats and equipment options even before selecting bloodline powers, eg bonus initiative but light armor only for lahmians, bonus caster level but no armor for necrarchs, etc. Personally, I'd say this kind of thing is necessary. If we're implementing bloodlines as fully separate armies of infamy, then instead of modifications to the normal vampire profiles you might as well just make entirely new unit entries for 'blood dragon vampire', 'lahmian vampire', etc.

......

If we want armies of infamy for each bloodline (instead of or in addition to separate bloodline rules), but we don't want to flood a single homebrew supplement with 5+ armies of infamy, then excess armies of infamy could be spun out into campaign books, either covering non-canon events taking place during the Old World time period or canon wars from different time periods, along with some of the opponents they faced

EG:

Arcane Journal: Vampire Counts
* Bloodline Rules
* Blood Dragon army (one of the worst fits for the default list, narrative ties to Empire and Brettonia)
* No Vampires, Necromancer/Wight army (reflects vampires largely laying low in Old World. No Kemmler/Krell for timeline reasons, so maybe Dieter Helsnicht the Doomlord as a named hero face of the army)

The Von-Carstein wars
* Von-Carstein bloodline army
* Empire veteran vampire hunters

War in Nehekhara: non-canon hypothetical campaign where Arkhan and Neferata team up to attack Khemri while Settra is off north in the Old World chasing stolen artefacts, maybe imply it was Arkhan & Neferata who tipped the thieves off as to the locations of treasure vaults in the first place. Khalida leads the defense against their attack since she was left out of the TK arcane journal
* Lahmian bloodline army
* Arkhan's Traitor Tomb Kings
* Khalida's Tomb Kings
* Maybe Khatep as well?

That still leaves strigoi and necrarchs, though.

..........................

Alternatively, we could at least nominally divorce armies of infamy from bloodlines. Instead of a 'Blood Dragon' army, have an "aristocracy of blood" elite vampire army with lots of blood knoghts, and you could use the same army for the literal blood dragons with the blood dragon bloodline or templehoff knights with the von carstein bloodline. A single army mixing tomb king and vampire count options could be used for armies of both neferata and arkhan, or if instead you wanted to run an army of an empire duke corrupted and subverted by neferata's spy network you could use the sylvianian wars army but with lahmian bloodline instead of von carstein. Maybe the necromancer army could allow a choice of either regular necromancers or necrarch vampires.

...................

I'm definitely open to suggestions here. What do any of you see as your prefered way to implement bloodlines? What would you want to see in a homebrew Arcane Journal, and/or additional supplements?

 

[Sception]

I think I'm getting too far ahead of myself with talk of campaign supplements and half a dozen armies of infamy. Instead I want to narrow back to just an Arcane Journal. Key elements thereof being:

1. Bloodline Rules: minor tweaks to the vampire heroes in your army, plus maybe one or two unique vampiric powers each
2. two armies of infamy. there are currently four vying for my short list: elite mostly vampires army, chattle levy mixing undead and living units (von carsteins spring immediately to mind, but this could also be blood dragons with mortal knights and warriors seeking to prove themselves worthy or lahmians with enthralled servants or even strigoi with Strigani followers), a necromancer coven list with hordes of weak undead backed up by necromantic abominations and lots of recursion, or an old undead legion style mix of vampire count and tomb king units.
3. New units as required/made possible by the armies of infamy
4. Special Characters. This is somewhat restricted by who's alive at the time the game is set. Kemmler & Krell aren't available yet, and Nicodemus is still a student serving under Melkhior at this point. Vlad, Isabella, and Konrad are dead already, as is W'Soran, though I'm inclined to avoid trying to give rules to the bloodline founders regardless. Strong candidates include Mannfred (yes he's indisposed, but he's not dead), the Red Duke (he's not super active, but he is around, and I like the Brett connection), Melkhior, and Dieter Helsnicht.
5. New magic items & bloodline powers. Definitely need to play around with the pdf army as it is first to get a sense of what the army's missing & what might be too much.

First Draft of Bloodline Rules:

When you choose to field a Vampire Counts army you may choose for the vampire heroes to descend from a particular bloodline. If you do so, choose one of the bloodlines below.

• Von Carstein: Your army may not include Strigoi Ghoul Kings.
  
  
• Blood Dragon: Your army may not include Strigoi Ghoul Kings. Vampire Thralls and Vampire Counts in your army must wear armor. Your Vampire Counts and Vampire Thralls may have Full Plate armor at +9 points if they are mounted.
  
  
• Lahmian: Your army may not include Strigoi Ghoul Kings. Your Vampire Counts and Vampire Thralls may not wear wear armor, but gain +1 Initiative.
  
  
• Necrarch: Your army may not include Strigoi Ghoul Kings, Vampire Counts, or Vampire Thralls. Master Necromancers in your army are vampires, gain the flammable special rule, and may purchase up to 100 points of vampyric powers in addition to their other options. Necromantic Acolytes in your army are vampires, gain the flammable special rule, and may purchase up to 50 points of vampyric powers in addition to their other optoins. Note that Necromancers in a Necrarch army may not take the 'Master of the Black Arts' vampyric power (as it is restricted to Vampire Counts and Vampire Thralls) or the 'Dark Acolyte' vampyric power (as they already have the 'Invocation of Nehek' ability).
  
  
• Strigoi: Your army may not include Vampire Counts or Vampire Thralls. Your army may include any number of Ghoul princes as part of its character allowance (new unit entry, downgraded ghoul king from lord to hero choice)

Note that these additional rules and restrictions, including access to unique bloodline vampiric powers, do not apply to any allied contingents your army may include.

Fairly minimal on the default changes, leaving unique bloodline powers (1 to 2 per bloodline) to do more of the work, though again I'm inclined to wait on tackling new powers until the existing ones have seen some play & testing.

 

[Darkmoon9]

I'm currently trying to make rules for Vlad and Isabella von Carstein. With Vlad you can almost recreate him from the base vampire count by adding the blood drinker and the carstein ring together with appropriate vampire powers, but it's annoying that he can't cast in armor considering his model has very clear heavy armor. So I am making rules for him anyway, using existing rules as a guide. Konrad and Mannfred may follow togother with a full Sylvania roster which includes mortal peasants.

So here is my take on Vlad:

Vlad Von Carstein (491 Points)

M WS BS S T W I A LD
6 7 5 5 5 3 6 4 10

Armor: Heavy Armor (5+)

TROOP TYPE: Infantry (Special Character, Vampire Count).

MAGIC: Vlad is a Level 3 Wizard. He uses spells from the Lore of Necromancy, Lore of Dark Magic or the Lore of Illusion

VAMPIRIC POWERS: Aura of Dark Majesty Beguile, Dark Acolyte, Supernatural Horror,

SPECIAL RULES: Beloved in Death, Dark Vitality, Flammable, Indomitable (2), Lore of Undeath, Master of the Ring, Necromantic Undead, Regeneration (5+), Warrior-Wizard

Aura of Dark Majesty
All enemy units within 6" of one or more Vampires with the Aura of Dark Majesty suffer a -1 penalty to their Leadership. This penalty is cumulative with any other modifiers.

Beloved in Death
If Vlad and Isabella von Carstein are in the same unit, they are inspired to fight all the harder, and hence they both benefit from the Strikes First special rule. Furthermore, Vlad becomes subject to Frenzy and Hatred should Isabella be slain, and vice versa.

Master of the Ring
The Carstein Ring grants Vlad a 4+ Ward save in addition to its other effects.

Warrior-Wizard
Vlad von Carstein can cast and dispel spells while wearing armor as if he weren't wearing armor.

And here is my take on Isabella:

Isabella Von Carstein (191 Points)

M WS BS S T W I A LD
6 6 4 5 5 2 5 3 7

Armor: Heavy Armor (5+)

TROOP TYPE: Infantry (Special Character, Vampire thrall).

MAGIC: Isabella is a Level 1 Wizard. She uses spells from the Lore of Necromancy, Lore of Dark Magic or the Lore of Illusion

VAMPIRIC POWERS: Beguile

SPECIAL RULES: Beloved in Death, Dark Vitality, Flammable, Indomitable (1), Lore of Undeath, Necromantic Undead, Regeneration (5+), Warrior-Wizard

Beloved in Death

If Vlad and Isabella von Carstein are in the same unit, they are inspired to fight all the harder, and hence they both benefit from the Strikes First special rule. Furthermore, Vlad becomes subject to Frenzy and Hatred should Isabella be slain, and vice versa.


Warrior-Wizard

Isabella von Carstein can cast and dispel spells while wearing armor as if she weren't wearing armor.


MAGIC ITEMS: Blood Chalice of Bathori


Blood Chalice of Bathori

Enchanted Item. Isabella, or another Vampiric character in the same unit, may drink from the Blood Chalice of Bathori at the start of each friendly strategy phase. The chosen model regains a single Wound lost earlier in the battle.

Any thoughts? Does this seem balanced? Do the point costs seem right?

 

[Sception]

I mean, you could give him the hauberk for the generic version, trading the sword for a cheaper one to save points, but yeah for a homebrew version you'd just make him cast in armor.

I agree with giving him a leadership bump, but 10 is maybe too high? ld 9 (+1 over a normal vamp lord) is already pretty significant and establishes him compulsory general. Aura of Dark Majesty is maybe too strong for TOW - especially on top of terror, and I'm not sure Dark Acolyte is a great fit either, thematically. level 3 + dark acolyte is the strongest a generic vampire can be at magic, and while vlad was no slouch we wasn't even the strongest von carstein wizard. 4+ ward also feels strong, but maybe it isn't too strong, I don't know.

As for Isabella, I'm not sure why she would get a +1 tougness boost over a normal vampire thrall. Also, I wouldn't give her the ability to cast & dispel in armor unless that's something we're giving to all von-carsteins as a bloodline trait, but traditionally that's a blood dragon thing. Maybe cut down her points and make her not a wizard. Or alternatively drop her armor (yeah i know, the model, but still).

Re: beloved in death: I'm not keen on giving them strikes first. Feels like more of a lahmia/neferata thing, and not something given out as readily in TOW as in 8e. I'd make that rule either just do the frenzy & hatred on death bit, or if you want to give them a bonus while alive and fighting together, maybe a 5+ ward save as they protect each other (and drop the 4+ from vlad)?

 

[Darkmoon9]

I mean, you could give him the hauberk for the generic version, trading the sword for a cheaper one to save points, but yeah for a homebrew version you'd just make him cast in armor.

I agree with giving him a leadership bump, but 10 is maybe too high? ld 9 (+1 over a normal vamp lord) is already pretty significant and establishes him compulsory general. Aura of Dark Majesty is maybe too strong for TOW - especially on top of terror, and I'm not sure Dark Acolyte is a great fit either, thematically. level 3 + dark acolyte is the strongest a generic vampire can be at magic, and while vlad was no slouch we wasn't even the strongest von carstein wizard. 4+ ward also feels strong, but maybe it isn't too strong, I don't know.

As for Isabella, I'm not sure why she would get a +1 tougness boost over a normal vampire thrall. Also, I wouldn't give her the ability to cast & dispel in armor unless that's something we're giving to all von-carsteins as a bloodline trait, but traditionally that's a blood dragon thing. Maybe cut down her points and make her not a wizard. Or alternatively drop her armor (yeah i know, the model, but still).

Re: beloved in death: I'm not keen on giving them strikes first. Feels like more of a lahmia/neferata thing, and not something given out as readily in TOW as in 8e. I'd make that rule either just do the frenzy & hatred on death bit, or if you want to give them a bonus while alive and fighting together, maybe a 5+ ward save as they protect each other (and drop the 4+ from vlad)?

Good points, I am willing to cut a few abilities as Vlad is kinda prohibitively expensive points wise at this point and I will take any excuse to make him more affordable. I will keep the 4+ ward for now, but I am willing to change it in the future if it turns out to be too strong. Maybe making it a +1 to regeneration instead.

As for Isabella, her having toughness 5 is a straight up mistake, she was supposed to have toughness 4. And yeah, the main reason I had her cast in armor is because her model has heavy armor, same with Vlad really, unless I used their older models which does not have armor. Looking at her earlier profiles for 7th and 8th edition, the 7th edition version does not have armor, but does have magic, so I am going for that. I am also willing to cut the strikes first part of beloved in death as a discount of awkward to pay additional points for an ability you might not even have unless you feel both of them. Keeping the frenzy and hatred for thematic reasons, but that is more of a double edged sword.

Here are the updated profiles:

Vlad Von Carstein (440 Points)

M WS BS S T W I A LD
6 7 5 5 5 3 6 4 9

Armor: Heavy Armor (5+)

TROOP TYPE: Infantry (Special Character, Vampire Count).

MAGIC: Vlad is a Level 3 Wizard. He uses spells from the Lore of Necromancy, Lore of Dark Magic or the Lore of Illusion

VAMPIRIC POWERS: Beguile, Supernatural Horror, Lord of the Night

SPECIAL RULES: Beloved in Death, Dark Vitality, Flammable, Indomitable (2), Lore of Undeath, Master of the Ring, Necromantic Undead, Regeneration (5+), Warrior-Wizard

Beloved in Death
Vlad becomes subject to Frenzy and Hatred should Isabella be slain.

Master of the Ring
The Carstein Ring grants Vlad a 4+ Ward save in addition to its other effects.

Warrior-Wizard
Vlad von Carstein can cast and dispel spells while wearing armor as if he weren't wearing armor.


Isabella Von Carstein (179 Points)

M WS BS S T W I A LD
6 6 4 5 4 2 5 3 7

Armor: None

MAGIC: Isabella is a Level 1 Wizard. She uses spells from the Lore of Necromancy, Lore of Dark Magic or the Lore of Illusion

TROOP TYPE: Infantry (Special Character, Vampire thrall).

VAMPIRIC POWERS: Beguile

SPECIAL RULES: Beloved in Death, Dark Vitality, Flammable, Indomitable (1), Lore of Undeath, Necromantic Undead, Regeneration (5+), Warrior-Wizard

Beloved in Death
Isabella becomes subject to Frenzy and Hatred should Vlad be slain.

MAGIC ITEMS: Blood Chalice of Bathori

Blood Chalice of Bathori

Enchanted Item. Isabella, or another Vampiric character in the same unit, may drink from the Blood Chalice of Bathori at the start of each friendly strategy phase. The chosen model regains a single Wound lost earlier in the battle.

 

[VampiricErik]

There's no reason to restrict homebrew character stats to old world timeline availability... I sure as heck will be playing using these rules at different points in the timeline... the new rules feel a lot nicer than the old ones, at least initial impressions. There's no reason it can't support all the special characters to play later scenarios.

WHFB is set in kind of a nebulous timeframe anyway where none of the characters actually die...It's not a D&D campaign with continuity... you suspend disbelief for any battle setup and then play out the fight....

 

[Sception]

For the special character timeline restrictions - I can be talked out of it, but at the moment I'm inclined to respect the Old World's timeframe in a homebrew Arcane Journal specifically, in order to line up with what the official arcane journals will offer. plus, it lets us highlight some less familiar faces.

I absolutely want to do homebrew characters from outside that timeframe, I'm just inclined to put them in separate documents.

 

[Ielthan]

The main thing I'd want from this are individual bloodlines like the 6th ed book had, was very disappointed the list they put out didn't have these. Rules for Vlad are always welcome!

 

[Sception]

I mean, it's not super surprising they didn't have bloodlines, as neither 7th edition nor 8th edition had explicit bloodline rules in them. If they hadn't revived the concept in AoS I'd have said that GW decided bloodlines in general (as a matter of rules, not background lore) were a mistake. And I could even get behind that idea myself, after all the most well known and iconic old world vamp count bloodline, the Von Carsteins, had an all rounder vampire lord, a beguiling vampire lady, a bloodthirsty armored warrior who eschewed magic, and a guy who ~could~ fight in combat but preferred to cast spells from the safety of the back lines and was in fact one of the strongest vampire wizards in the old world's history. If all of these archetypes can be found within a single bloodline, then it's arguably more fitting with the lore to say a vampire's specialties are down to their own personal talents and abilities rather than being inherited from their sire, and bloodline rules locking entire armies into a single archetype of vampires is entirely contrary to the fluff.

Arguably the differences between bloodlines are less a matter of what abilities and specialties the vampires have access to, and more a matter of what sorts of armies they lead, which suggests not a layered bloodline system for vampires in any vamp count army but instead tailored 'armies of infamy'. IE, the defining trait of the 'von carsteins' wouldn't be specific vampyric powers but rather a variant 'Sylvanian Levy' roster with access to empire-of-man mercenary units, the defining trait of 'blood dragons' wouldn't be differences in their stat lines, but instead a 'Knights of the Blood Keep' roster with the ability to take more blood knights (special?, 0-1 core per vamp hero?), and maybe mercenary empire knights or brettonian knights of the realm trying to prove themselves.

• Von Carsteins - mostly generic vamps but with some living empire guy mercenaries
• Lahmian - mix of VC and TK stuff?
• Blood Dragons - more blood knights, maybe some mortal knight mercenaries
• Necrarch - maybe focus on ethereal stuff, to distinguish them from the all necromancers list, and to emphasize the idea of them existing half in the spirit world? so like 0-1 core spirit host, 0-1 special hexwraith, the ability to drain wounds from ethereal units to empower casting like mortuary cults with their statue units?
• strigoi - all ghouls, with maybe some stuff stolen from the recent FEC update in AoS?
• Necromancers/Wights - no vampires at all, focus on spam healing hoards of lesser undead, plus unridden monsters (stitched together experimental necromantic abominations) for hammers?

But that runs back into the problem of there just being too many armies of renown then, as the standard for Arcane Journals so far is '2', and if we wanted to use them for bloodlines that's at least 5, maybe six if we tack on a no vampires 'necromancers & wights' list. And while nothing says a homebrew project needs to follow GW's design principles, the project is less likely to see widespread acceptance if we don't.

Maybe we pick 2 for the arcane journal - maybe Von Carsteins (the most recently active vampires as of the Old World time period) and Necromancers/Wights, and then put the other four in a separate 'old bloodlines' book (since lahmians, blood dragon, necrarch, & strigoi all trace directly back to the first generation of vampires, while Von Carsteins are, at least as of the most recent lore I've read, a more recent upstart without a clear history that can be traced back to Nehekhara)? Eh, I'm not sure.

...

For the moment, my second batch of bases & unit trays have arrived, so I've started rebasing some vamp counts for old world. Will probably take me another week to put a 1000 point pile of unpainted grey plastic on the table. Before diving too deep into homebrew rules, I want to get a sense of how they play as is, then try playing some variant lists with proxies to see what themed lists are most playable out of the official pdf and which ones are most in need of help.

 

[Azakael]

I had thoughts on a Sylvanian Army of Infamy.

• Removes the Etherial characters and the Strigoi Ghoul King.
• 1+ Sylvanian Levy. Levy being Zombies with the options for Shield, Halberd, Spears, or Crossbows, but loses Newly Dead. Gains Regemental Troop and Detatchment.
• 1+ Dire Wolves core.
• Skeletons and Zombies as core.
• Black Knight/ Grave Guard *per* Wight character as core, rather than just one.
• Fell Bats become 0-2 per 1000, Crypt Horror gone.
• 0-1 Spirit Hosts per 1000, rather than restricted by having Wraiths or Banshees.
• 0-1 Black Coach per 1000 points, rather than an upper limit.
• Hex Wraith either follows the Spirit Host restrictions or are dropped.
• All other restrictions or options stay the same.
• Mercenaries added: Empire Archers, Empire Free Company, *possibly* State Troop, but leaning towards just the Archers and Free Company.

 

[Hatross]

Mayne Bloodlines could work similarly to Chaos marks, with the restriction that no two different bloodlines can be taken in the same army. Then things like Sylvanian levies could be restricted by the general’s bloodline. This way everything can be thrown into one „vampire bloodlines” list.

As for the second army of infamy, I would love to see liches return one day. I just love the concept of them, they could get some crazy boosted necromantic powers.

As for a special character - I’ll throw out Dieter Helsnicht, apparently he’s contemporary to the TOW timeline. Classic character from the days of yore, AND he’s a necromancer on a manticore!

 

[Sception]

Wasn't there a banshee in the vampire wars books? Or maybe I'm getting confused, it's been so long since I read them. Probably ought to re-read them for this project.

Not sure there's much point to adding equipment options for zombies. At the end of the day they're still zombies. Imo just add state troops & crossbows to the list of units they can merk in from empire. maybe even a limited number of cannons? Eh, probably going too far there. Unless there's a specific precedent for geared up zombies that's slipping my mind? Again, there might be.

Not sure VC/sylvania's known for having any more black knights or grave guard than other bloodlines, more inclined to keep their units as in the main list.

Less ghouls and ghosts does seem to be the most appropriate tradeoff (though again I'm not sure about ditching the ethereal characters altogether). maybe ditch crypt ghouls or kick them to special. I like dire wolves as required core. Might even make bat swarms or fell bats requires as well. like 1+ dire wolves or bat swarms per 1,000 points in core, 1+ fell bats per 1,000 points in special? Or if spammed fell bats might be a problem 1-2 instead?

.............................

Of course, this is all assuming a Von Carstein Army of Infamy - which I think should definitely be a thing, but possibly not in the arcane journal. If not there, it would go in a campaign book on the von carstein wars instead.

Because we're not going to be able to do all of the bloodlines as separate armies of infamy in the AJ, so maybe we /should/ do layered on bloodline rules, just to get them all in there. And then the armies of infamy would be something like:

Vampire Court - representing a clan of vampires who have established themselves in human society. This could be the Von Carsteins lording over Sylvania or the Blood Dragons while they held Blood Keep or Necrarchs taking over an arcane academy or Lahmians infiltrating high society. This would be represented mechanically by:

• more vampires - new vampire infantry elite/special unit (can use vykos blood-born or askargi trueblade models from AoS, or Brett Infantry knights with head swaps from Blood Knights, etc). Super versatile to represent multiple bloodlines - no armor but able to cast a spell like dark elf warlocks, or light armor skirmishy scouty types, or heavy armor heavy infantry.
• human servants - allies/mercenaries drawn from human armies, but different units from those available to the Ghoul Coourt (more line troops and heavier cav)
• less/no ghouls (harder to hide in high society, can't be kept in cold storage until needed like skeletons & zombies
• maybe less/no wights, maybe less/no ghosts, probably less/no necromancers
• must choose one bloodline from Von Carstein, Lahmia, Blood Dragon, or Necrarch
• minor list variants by bloodline (blood dragons get 1 blood knight unit as special, necrarchs can't take blood knights but get hexwraiths back, etc), though these might be tied to bloodline-restricted vampiric powers rather than written into the list itself.

Ghoul Court - representing Strigoi armies existing on the outskirts of society, drawing the oppressed and ostracized to them.

• No vampires at all (except maybe vargheists, see below), but add hero level version of ghoul kings.
• maybe some new ghoul stuff stolen from AoS - though not Ushoran himself, as I'm pretty sure he wasn't ~huge~ back in oldhammer times. But Crypt Guard in particular would probably fit in well in Old World. Maybe Crypt Flayers too, except the old world pdfs already makes vargheists a Ghoul King thing, so arguably the pdf's vargheists already represent crypt flayers more than the traditional vargheists that were more associated with Mannfred. maybe hero versions of horrors and vargheists/flayers as well, certainly a hero version of regular ghouls.
• human (strigany) servents - allies/mercenaries from human armies, but different units from the Vampire Court (more scouts, hunters, and light cav, maybe flagellants to represent those teetering on the brink of ghoul-madness?)
• skirmish/vanguard/reserve/outflank mechanical theme, maybe steal ideas from beasts of chaos
• maybe less/no wights, probably less/no ghosts, maybe less/no necromancers
• unique bloodline powers for strigoi

That would let us get all the bloodlines into the Arcane Journal with only two armies of infamy. No vampire-free necromancer/wight army, which I would eventually want to add in another homebrew supplement, but in the mean time the core vampire counts pdf list doesn't actually do a terrible job of representing vampire-free undead lists, so I'm starting to think a no-vampires army of infamy is a lower priority than getting at least some coverage of the bloodlines accross.

 

[Sception]

Absolute first draft here, the new units in particular are a sketch of what I'm imagining thematically more than a serious rules proposal, but trying to put together something that could reasonably work for each of the non-strigoi bloodlines


Vampire Court - Most vampires lurk in the shadows, on the periphery of human civilization, feeding only when they need to, hiding from ever vigilent witch hunters and building armies of the dead in secret. The most dangerous and successful vampires hide in plain sight, infiltrating noble families, knightly orders, arcane academies, or other prestigious institutions. There they fester like a growing cancer, replacing local authorities with their accursed spawn and gathering cults of hypnotized followers to feed and protect them. In this way Vlad Von Carstein infamously took control of Sylvania, and Wallach Harkon corrupted Blood Keep and its once noble knightly order

note that if you choose for your Vampire Court to be from one of the historical bloodlines of the Old World (see below) this choice may alter some of the options presented in this list.

Characters - Up to 50% of the army's points value may be spent on:

• 1+ Vampire Count or Vampire Thrall
• 0-1 Wight Lord or Cairn Wraith per 1,000 points
• Necromantic Acolytes

Core - At least 25% of the army's points value may be spent on:

• 1+ Bat Swarms or Dire Wolves
• Zombies and Skeleton Warriors
• 0-1 Unit of Blood-born may be taken as a Core Choice

Special - Up to 33% of the army's points value may be spent on:

• 0-1 Unit of Black Guard or Black Knights per Wight Lord taken
• 0-1 Unit of Spirit Hosts per Cairn Wraith taken
• Fell Bats and Blood-born

Rare - Up to 33% of the army's points value may be spent on:

• 0-1 Unit of Vargheists per 1000 points
• Black Coaches and Blood Knights

Hypnotized Mercenaries - Up to 25% of the army's points value may be spent on Hypnotized Mercenaries, including:

• Empire State Troops (including 0-1 Veteran state troops), State Missile Troops, Empire Archers, Empire Knights (see the Empire of Man army list on page 59 of Forces of Fantasy)

Note that Hypnotized Mercenary units are different from normal Mercenaries in that they do not gain the Mercenaries special rule and are not subject to the Misbehaving Mercenaries rules on page 279 of the Old World Rulebook. Hypnotized Mercenary units that can take magic items may select them from the Old World Rulebook. They may not select Vampire Counts magic items unless the item says otherwise.

Battle Standard Bearer: Vampire Thrall only, works as a normal BSB for Hypnotized Mercenary units, otherwise same as base army.

Special Rules:

General Must be a vampire, does not need to be a wizard. Undead units start crumbling when the general dies as per usual.

Hypnotized Mercenaries: Unlike normal Mercenary units, Hypnotized Mercenary units can still benefit from your general's inspiring presence and from your Battle Standard Bearer if you have one. Your Vampire characters can join Hypnotized Mercenary units even though they do not have the Necromantic Undead special rule. While attached to a Hypnotized Mercenary unit your Vampire characters may march normally, but lose the Unbreakable and Unstable rules. If your general dies, any Hypnotized Mercenary units in your army immediately come to their senses and flee the battle, taking any Vampire characters still attached to those units with them.

Blood Feeding: During your command phase each of your Vampire Counts and Vampire Thralls that is not engaged in combat or fleeing may choose to feed on a friendly Hypnotized Mercenary unit within their command range which is also not engaged in combat or fleeing. That unit suffers a single wound that cannot be saved or prevented in any way, and the vampire character immediately heals up to d3 wounds. The Hypnotized Mercenary unit must then immediately take a panic test.

Blood Magic: Whenever one of your Vampire Counts or Vampire Thralls that is a wizard attempts to cast a spell, they may choose to draw power from the blood of a friendly Hypnotized Mercenary unit within their command range which is not engaged in combat or fleeing. That unit suffers a single wound that cannot be prevented or saved in any way, and the vampire adds d3 to the casting roll. The Hypnotized Mercenary unit must then immediately make a panic test.

Bloodlines of the Old World: A Vampire Court army may be taken from a single historical bloodline of the Old World. If you choose to do so, then select one of the following bloodlines: Von Carstein, Blood Dragon, Lahmia, or Necrarch.

• Von Carstein: Von Carstein Vampire Counts and Vampire Thralls are unchanged from the normal entries. Von Carstein Courts may take 0-1 Black Coach as a Special choice. Von Carstein Blood-born may be 'Hunters' or 'Warriors'
• Lahmia: Lahmian Vampire Counts and Vampire Thralls have the Strike First rule, but may not take heavy armor, shields, or weapons that require two hands. Lahmian Vampire Courts replace 'Cairn Wraith' in their army composition list with 'Tomb Banshee'. Lahmian Blood-born may be 'Acolytes' or 'Hunters'
• Blood Dragon: Blood Dragon Vampire Counts and Vampire Thralls may equip full plate armor for +9 points. They also gain +1 Weapon Skill, but they may not refuse a challenge. Blood Dragon Courts may take 0-1 Unit of Blood Knights as a special choice. Blood Dragon Blood-born may be 'Warriors' only.
• Necrarch: Necrarch Vampire Counts and Vampire Thralls increase their wizard level by 1 (to a maximum of 4), but may not take normal or magical armor, shields, or weapons apart from a single non-magical hand weapon. Necrarch Vampire Courts replace 'Blood Knights' in their army composition list with 'Hexwraiths'. Necrarch Blood-born may be 'Acolytes' only.

Blood-born: Blood-born are newly turned vampires still growing accustomed to their new powers. Typically Vampires are reluctant to sire new offspring, as each one increases the risk of exposing the Vampire to its enemie. Since new vampires are rarely made, each is kept well away from danger until they have fully matured. Vampires at the head of established Vampiric Courts, those that have already taken control of any local authorities that might oppose them, have no need for such caution. They share their dark gifts more freely, unleashing dozens of newly spawned creatures of the night on their enemies.

Three types of Blood-born are detailed below: Blood-born Acolytes who embrace the arcane power of their tainted blood, Blood-born Stalkers which gain powers over shadow and stealth, and Blood-born Warriors who revel in bloody combat. Note that if you choose for your Vampire Court to be part of one of the Old World's historical bloodlines, that choice will limit what kind of Blood-born your army may include as described above.


Blood-born Acolytes - 18 points per model
Acolyte - M5, Ws4, Bs3, S4, T4, W1, I4, A1, Ld7
Warlock - M5, Ws4, Bs3, S4, T4, W1, I4, A2, Ld7
Troop Type: Normal Infantry
Base Size: 25mm square
Unit Size: 5+
Equipment: Hand Weapons

Options:

• Any unit may upgrade one model to a Warlock (champion) for +7 points
  - A Warlock may purchase Vampyric Powers up to a total of 25 points
  - A Warlock may purchase Magic Items up to a total of 25 points

Special Rules: Blood Coven, Newly Spawned, Necromantic Undead, Open Order, Dark Vitality, Flammable, Indomitable (1), Regeneration 6+, Skirmishers

Blood Coven: A unit of Blood-born Acolytes knows a single spell (chosen by their controlling player before armies are deployed) from either the Dark Magic, Illusion, or Necromancy Lore of Magic. The Unit may cast this spell as a Bound Spell:

• If the unit has a Unit Strength of 10 or more and includes a Warlock, it may cast this Bound Spell with a Power Level of 2
• If the unit includes a Warlock, but has a Unit Strength of 9 or less, it may cast this Bound Spell with a Power Level of 1
• Otherwise, the unit may cast this Bound Spell with a Power Level of 0

Newly Spawned: Blood-born Acolytes have only recently become vampires, and are still learning to control their terrible thirst. Whenever they make a Pursuit roll, they roll only a single D6 (rather than the usual 2d6).

Representing Blood-born Acolytes on the table: any appropriately sized and equiped models that look suitably vampyric and arcane may be used to represent Blood-born Acolytes. One possibility is Collegiate Arcane models with unhelmeted heads taken from the Blood Knights kit.


Blood-born Hunters - 20 points per model
Hunter - M6, Ws4, Bs3, S4, T4, W1, I5, A2, Ld7
Stalker - M6, Ws4, Bs3, S4, T4, W1, I5, A3, Ld7
Troop Type: Normal Infantry
Base Size: 25mm square
Unit Size: 5+
Equipment: Hand Weapons and Light armor

Options:

• Any Model may purchase one of the following:
  - Shield for +1 point
  - Additional Hand Weapon for +1 point
  - Great Weapon for +2 points
• Any unit may upgrade one model to a Stalker (champion) for +7 points
  - A Stalker may purchase Vampyric Powers up to a total of 25 points
  - A Stalker may purchase Magic Items up to a total of 25 points
• 0-1 Unit per 1000 points in your army may have one of the following:
  - the Ambushers special rule: +1 point per model
  - the Scouts special rule: +1 point per model

Special Rules: Accursed Weapons, Evasive, Newly Spawned, Necromantic Undead, Open Order, Dark Vitality, Flammable, Indomitable (1), Motley Crew, Regeneration 6+, Move Through Cover, Skirmishers

Accursed Weapons: A hand weapon (but not additional hand weapons) carried by a model with this special rule has the Magical Attacks special rule and an Armour Piercing Characteristic of -1.

Newly Spawned: Blood-born Hunters have only recently become vampires, and are still learning to control their terrible thirst. Whenever they make a Pursuit roll, they roll only a single D6 (rather than the usual 2d6).

Representing Blood-born Hunters on the table: any appropriately sized and equiped models that look suitably vampyric and sneaky may be used to represent Blood-born Hunters. One possibility is Askurgan Trueblades from Warcry.


Blood-born Warriors- 20 points per model
Warrior - M6, Ws5, Bs3, S4, T4, W1, I4, A2, Ld7
Templar - M6, Ws5, Bs3, S4, T4, W1, I4, A3, Ld7
Troop Type: Heavy Infantry
Base Size: 25mm square
Unit Size: 5+
Equipment: Hand Weapons and Heavy armor

Options:

• Any model may purchase one of the following:
  - Shield for +1 point
  - Halberd for +1 point
  - Great Weapon for +2 points
• Any unit may upgrade one model to a Templar (champion) for +7 points
  - A Templar may purchase Vampyric Powers up to a total of 25 points
  - A Templar may purchase Magic Items up to a total of 25 points
• Any unit may upgrade one model to a Standard Bearer for +7 points
  - A Standard Bearer may purchase a magic standard worth up to 50 points
• Any unit may upgrade one model to a musician for +7 points

Special Rules: Accursed Weapons, Newly Spawned, Necromantic Undead, Close Order, Dark Vitality, Flammable, Indomitable (1), Motley Crew, Regeneration 6+

Accursed Weapons: A hand weapon carried by a model with this special rule has the Magical Attacks special rule and an Armour Piercing Characteristic of -1.

Newly Spawned: Blood-born Hunters have only recently become vampires, and are still learning to control their terrible thirst. Whenever they make a Pursuit roll, they roll only a single D6 (rather than the usual 2d6).

Representing Blood-born Warriors on the table: any appropriately sized and equiped models that look suitably vampyric and martial may be used to represent Blood-born Warriors. One possibility is Brettonian Knights of the Realm on Foot with helmeted heads taken from the Blood Knights kit.


New Vampyric Powers:

Red Thirst: the vampire has the frenzy and hatred (all enemies) rule. 30 points?

Battlemage (wizards only): the vampire can wear armor without penalty. 25 points?

additional new powers needed, especially low cost powers that can be taken by champions and bloodline-specific powers.


Magic Items:

Standard of Hypnotic Devotion - Hypnotized Mercenaries only, immune to psychology, 25 points.

Additional new items needed, including bloodline-specific items

 

[Azakael]

Wasn't there a banshee in the vampire wars books? Or maybe I'm getting confused, it's been so long since I read them. Probably ought to re-read them for this project.

Not sure there's much point to adding equipment options for zombies. At the end of the day they're still zombies. Imo just add state troops & crossbows to the list of units they can merk in from empire. maybe even a limited number of cannons? Eh, probably going too far there. Unless there's a specific precedent for geared up zombies that's slipping my mind? Again, there might be.

Not sure VC/sylvania's known for having any more black knights or grave guard than other bloodlines, more inclined to keep their units as in the main list.

Less ghouls and ghosts does seem to be the most appropriate tradeoff (though again I'm not sure about ditching the ethereal characters altogether). maybe ditch crypt ghouls or kick them to special. I like dire wolves as required core. Might even make bat swarms or fell bats requires as well. like 1+ dire wolves or bat swarms per 1,000 points in core, 1+ fell bats per 1,000 points in special? Or if spammed fell bats might be a problem 1-2 instead?

Zombies and equipment: 4th and early 5th allowed zombies to have armor and great weapons. I would have to double-check which flavor of armor they were allowed. In Storm of Chaos Sylvanian Levy were zombies armed simiarly to State Troops with spear and shield or halberd.

I will have to see specifically how 6th edition's appendix Sylvanian list is written. It might have had Etherial units.

As for the Grave Guard/ Black Knights restriction changes, I don't have a specific source other than feel. For me a specifically Sylvanian list should feel like a dark mirror of an Empire list, and they have Knights as Core.

I am a strong proponent of no cannons in the list.

Not sure I like *all* creatures of the night being required, but perhaps 1+ Dire Wolves or Bat Swarms, but keep the Fell Bats as just a higher per 1000 point restriction.

 

[Sception]

So I'm back to separating out bloodline rules from armies of renown, in an attempt to cover the maximum bases possible. I'm still pretty happy with the initial bloodline take, which looks like:

Vampiric Bloodlines: When you create a Vampire Counts army muster, you may choose for your army to be drawn from one of the following infamous old world bloodlines. If you do so, vampire characters in your army gain access to additional bloodline exclusive magic items and vampiric powers. Additionally, apply the following changes to Vampire Count and Vampire Thrall characters in your army:

Von Carstein: no additional changes
Lahmian: +1 Weapon Skill and Initiative, but may not equip normal or magical armor.
Blood Dragon: +1 Strength, and may purchase full plate armor for +9 points. However, they are Impetuous.
Necrarch: +1 bonus to spell casting and dispelling rolls, but may not purchase normal or magical armor or shields, nor may they purchase any normal or magical weapons that require two hands to wield.


Changes to the Vampire Counts Grand Army list:

Add 'Vampire Count Armies of Renown' to available allies.


Then, separatly, a 'Vampiric Court' army of renown representing a group of vampires who have subverted and taken control of a local mortal population, similar to the previous attmept but greatly streamlined.

Characters - Up to 50% of the army's points value may be spent on:

• 1+ Vampire Count or Vampire Thrall
• 0-1 Wight Lord or Cairn Wraith per 1,000 points
• Necromantic Acolytes

Core - At least 25% of the army's points value may be spent on:

• 1+ Bat Swarms or Dire Wolves
• Zombies and Skeleton Warriors

Special - Up to 33% of the army's points value may be spent on:

• 0-1 Unit of Black Guard or Black Knights per Wight Lord taken
• 0-1 Unit of Spirit Hosts per Cairn Wraith taken
• 0-1 Corpse Carts per Necromantic Acolyte taken
• Fell Bats

Rare - Up to 33% of the army's points value may be spent on:

• Black Coaches, Vargheists, and Blood Knights

Mercenaries - Up to 25% of the army's points value may be spent on Mercenaries, including:

• Empire State Troops (including 0-1 Veteran state troops), State Missile Troops, Empire Knights (see the Empire of Man army list on page 59 of Forces of Fantasy)

If you choose for your Vampiric Court to hail from a particular Bloodline, apply the following modifications:

Von Carstein: One Black Coach may be taken as a Special choice
Lahmian: replace all instances of 'Cairn Wraith' with 'Tomb Banshee'
Blood Dragon: One unit of Blood Knights may be taken as a Special choice.
Necrarch: replace all instances of 'Blood Knights' with 'Hexwraiths'

Special Rules:

Vampire Lord: the general does not have to be a wizard, but must instead be the vampire character with the highest leadership in your army. If more than one is tied for highest leadership, you choose which one is the general. The army crumbles when the general dies as usual.

Blood Feast: during your strategy phase each of your Vampire characters may feed on a friendly mercenary unit within their command range. If they do so, roll a d3 - the chosen unit suffers that many wounds which cannot be prevented in any way, while the vampire heals up to that many wounds lost earlier in the battle.

Blood Magic: whenever one of your Vampire Counts or Vampire Thralls attempts to cast a spell, they may choose to draw power from the blood of a friendly mercenary unit within their command range. If they do so, roll a d3 - the chosen unit suffers that many wounds which cannot be prevented in any way, and the vampire adds an equal bonus to the casting roll.


Strigoi Ghoul Clan - Where the other bloodlines infiltrate the high societies and respectable institutions of human civilization, the Strigoi find their followers among the diseased and the downtrodden, outsiders and exiles like the Strigoi are themselves.

Characters - Up to 50% of the army's points value may be spent on:

• 1+ Strigoi Ghoul King or Ghoul Prince (which may carry bsb)
• Necromantic Acolytes

Core - At least 25% of the army's points value may be spent on:

• 1+ Crypt Ghouls
• 0-1 unit of Crypt Horrors or Crypt Guard may be taken as a Core Choice
• Zombies, Skeleton Warriors, dire wolves, and bat swarms

Special - Up to 33% of the army's points value may be spent on:

• 0-1 Corpse Cart per Necromantic Acolyte taken
• 0-1 Terrorgheist or unit of Vargheists may be taken as a Special Choice
• Crypt Horrors and Crypt Guard

Rare - Up to 33% of the army's points value may be spent on:

• Terrorgheists, Varghulfs, Vargheists, Morbheg Knights (new unit entry)

Mercenaries - Up to 25% of the army's points value may be spent on Mercenaries, including:

• Free Company Militia, Empire Archers (see the Empire of Man army list on page 59 of Forces of Fantasy)

Special Rules: Ghoul King or Prince must be the general regardless of wizard or not with normal army crumble on death. otherwise I'm open to suggestions.

....

New Magic Items: haven't even started this

New Vampiric Powers: haven't started this either

Special Characters: also not started. Again the von carsteins are the obvious choices especially as they had official models, but they're not active in the old world's time period so maybe not. Dieter Helsnicht is the most active named vamp count character that I'm aware of in the game's time period, but there's not really a good model option.

New Unit Entries: Right now exclusive to the Strigoi list. Ghoul Prince (to a ghoul king what a vampire thrall is to a vampire count), Crypt Guard (AoS models, a more on-theme alternative to grave guard), Morbheg Knights (aos unit, cool models, tossing strigoi a bone due to how many units they lose access to here). The Morbheg bat beasts would also be added as a mount option for Ghoul Princes, maybe also Ghoul Kings.

I've dropped the 'blood-borne' new unit entries because 1) lack of clear models to use 2) they were awkward & trying to do too much. Down side is that leaves the vampiric court special section pretty anemic and not really having any more actual vampires in it than the default grand army. Maybe allow Vampire Thralls to be taken from special points? Or introduce a new, even lesser, single-wound vampire purchased out of special points that can be added to units as a sort of second unit champion, kind of like Grail Monks in Brettonian Men At Arms, so that every unit (except mercenaries? Including mercenaries?) can have an extra vampire in it?

Obviously a 'real' Arcane Journal wouldn't be adding AoS models to Old World factions, but legacy factions aren't getting 'real' arcane journals anyway.



The idea with the above is to cater to the old bloodlines as much as possible while conforming to the established pattern for Arcane Journal content. Yes, that leaves out vampireless necromancer & wight lists, but after playing around a bit I think the grand army composition for Vampire Counts actually handles them pretty well already.

 

[Sception]

New "unit" concept for the 'Vampiric Court' army of renown:

Vampire Newblood: m5, ws5, bs3, s4, t4, w1, i4, a2, ld7, 30 points

Troop Type: regular infantry (unit champion)
Base Size: 25x25
Unit Size: n/a (see below)
Equipment: Hand Weapon

Magic: a Vampire Newblood may be a wizard (see below). A Vampire Newblood that is a wizard knows spells from one of the following lores:

• Dark Magic
• Illusion
• Necromancy

Options:

• May take one of the following:
  - Additional Hand Weapon +1 points
  - Great Weapon +2 points
  - Lance (if appropriately mounted) +2 points
• May take a shield +1 points
• May take one of the following:
  - Light Armor +1 points
  - Heavy Armor +3 points
• May be a level 1 wizard +25 points
• May purchase magic items up to a total of 25 points
• May purchase vampiric powers up to a total of 25 points
• If attached to a unit of cavalry (see below), must be mounted on a Nightmare for +8 points

Special Rules: Champions of the Night, Blood Scions, Flammable, Lore of Undeath, Regeneration (6+)

Champions of the Night: Vampire Newbloods are purchased from the army's Special units allowance, but do not operate as units of their own. Instead, when you are selecting your army roster each Vampire Newblood must be attached to a unit of Skeleton Warriors, Zombies, Grave Guard, Black Knights, Empire State Troops, Empire Missile Troops, or Empire Knights in the army, where they are treated the same as a unit champion. If the unit already has a champion of its own, then they will have two champions. Each unit may only have a single Vampire Newblood attached to it. If attached to a unit with the Necromantic Undead keyword, then the Vampire Newblood gains the Necromantic Undead, Dark Vitality, and Indomitable (1) special rules. If attached to a Mercenary unit, then the Vampire Newblood gains the Fear and Immune to Psychology special rules, and the unit they are attached to is not subject to the Misbehaving Mercenaries rule as long as the Vampire Newblood is alive.

Blood Scions: If you choose for your army to be from one of the Old World Bloodlines, then apply the same modifiers to Vampire Newbloods that you apply to Vampire Counts and Thralls, with the exception that Blood Dragon Vampire Newblood may purchase plate armor for +5 points instead of +9.


As with the abandoned 'blood-born' concept, this is trying to simultaneously give the army something to spend special points on and to increase the number of vampires in the dedicated vampires army of renown.


Thoughts?

 

[Sception]

Here's the working proposal as it currently sits. The main change from last post is a pivot away from the entire Vampiric Court army of infamy concept and towards Sartosan Pirates of the Vampire Coast, since as far as I can tell they're the most active vampire faction in the Old World's official time frame, and Total Warhammer suggests several fun ideas for new units that are immediately easy to represent on the table. There is an alternative suggestion for representing the sort of 'vampires leading subverted human forces' using Vampiric Powers to modify the Grand Army composition instead of as an entire separate army of infamy.

1) Bloodline Rules or no?

Old School vampire count fans tend to miss these, though the last two warhammer fantasy vampire count army books both dropped them, preferring to let players customize individual vampires in their armies as they wish without having army-wide bloodline choices pushing all your vampire heroes in the same direction. Dropping Bloodlines also removes the need to have four different ranges of vampire models, but the unsupported legacy status of vampire counts in the Old World kind of negates that as an issue, since vamp counts players will generally be relying on 3rd party and 3d print options for their models, and there's plenty of different vampires to choose from then. On the other hand, Age of Sigmar brought back bloodlines and feels more flavorful for it.. I'm not sure which approach is the best one. An obvious alternative is to do bloodlines as Armies of Infamy rather than a rules layer, but doing an army of infamy for each bloodline would require far more than the 2 armies of infamy that Arcane Tomes have as a standard.

Here's an example of what a bloodline rules layer might look like:

When you build a Vampire Counts roster, you may choose for the vampire characters in your army to descend from one of the infamous Vampiric Bloodlines of the Old World. If you do so, then choose one of the following bloodlines below and apply that bloodlines rules to all Vampire Counts and Vampire Thralls in your army.

Von Carstein: no additional changes
Lahmian: +1 weapon skill and initiative, but cannot wear normal or magical heavy armor or shields
Blood Dragon: +1 strength and may dispel spells even while wearing armor or locked in combat, but cannot cast spells.
Necrarch: +1 bonus to cast and dispel rolls, but may not use normal or magical weapons, armor, or shields apart from a single non-magical hand weapon.

(note: Strigoi vampire heroes are represented by entirely different units, and thus do not get bloodline rules).

The Alternative to explicit bloodline rules is to include more new vampiric powers that are clearly themed to the old bloodlines.

At the moment, despite putting some effort and even a bit of testing into the 'bloodline rules layer' concept, I'm personally leaning towards abandoning it, while leaving the door to bring bloodlines back via separate armies of infamy in future campaign supplements, ie a Von Carstein army of infamy in a Vampire Wars campaign supplement, or a Lahmian army of infamy in a 'Arkhan and Neferata lay seige to Khemri, and Khalida & Khatep need to fend them off until Settra returns' campaign supplement, etc.



2) Special Characters: Arcane Journals generally add two special characters. Unfortunately, most of the classic vampire counts special characters, in particular those that had models in 8th edition, are not active in the Old World's time frame. The Von-Carsteins are dead (apart from Mannfred, who's sleeping off his big defeat under a bog), Kemmler either isn't born yet or is currently a hermit with amnesia, I forget, but either way he's not doing anything. Krell is still stuck in a Burial Mound. So either we break from the official Arcane Journals to include heroes who aren't active in the Old World's specific time frame, which I'm not inherently opposed to, or else we go with special characters who don't have 'recent' official GW models. Options then include:

• Neferata/Abhorash/Ushoran: these bloodline founders are in theory alive somewhere in the world, but they're not directly active at this time and also they're of a legendary power level that I feel disinclined to represent in the game mechanically. Still, I'm open to the idea of including them, especially if we bring back bloodline rules
• Melchior: As with the bloodline founders, Melchior is alive but not iirc super active in this specific time frame. Also there is a canon conflict over whether Melchior killed W'Soran or whether W'Soran's spirit killed and possessed Melchior, so Melchior could just literally be W'Soran, which runs into my feeling that bloodline founders are at a power scale I'm disinclined to represent directly.
• Dieter Hellsnicht is alive and causing trouble, still riding around on his manticore. He seems an obvious choice, especially since as a necromancer he could be included in any army regardless of Bloodline. The major downside for Dieter is that I'm not aware of a currently available model, print file, or even an easy conversion that we can suggest to represent him. While imo 3rd party stuff or simple conversions are fine, we're in homebrew land anyway, I'm disinclined to include a special character that would require significantly above the typical skill level conversion work.
• the Red Duke is still haunting the forest of Chalons in Brettonia. Given the prominence of Brettonia in this edition he seems like a good choice, but in canon he's not very active and his mind is kind of broken right now. Having him lead any sort of significant campaign would be a major canon divergence, so he probably belongs in one of those historical narrative campaigns I was talking about.
• Arkhan the Black is alive and doing his usual thing - collecting artefacts, trying to revive Nagash. One imagines that with Settra away on vacation Arkhan would likely be causing some particular troubles in Nehekhara, and while that's not an official part of canon it wouldn't be contrary to it either. But while Arkhan is associated with some vampire count units, he's really more of a Tomb Kings character.
• Luthor Harkon: this is probably the best option, and one could even argue that he has a model in the old Sartosan Vampire mini, though it's particularly hard to come by these days. He's currently ruling over the Vampire Coast and is relatively active. If we include Luthor Harkon, though, then that's a reason not to include explicit bloodline rules, since Harkon's specific vampire lineage isn't known. We could do both, and just specify that Harkon can only be taken in a vampire army that doesn't draw from one of the classic bloodlines. On the other hand, Luthor's vampire pirates are fairly distinct, arguably an army of infamy in themselves, which would circle back around to make Harkon a fantastic choice.
• Someone new? The Arcane Journals thus far have used the specific setting of the Old World as an opportunity to explore new characters. So maybe we could introduce a new named necromancer, wight, vampire, or ghoul king. A ghoul king especially might be worth considering, what with the recent Flesh Eater Court expansion providing some models we could steal, and strigoi ghoul armies being one of the existing vampire count army concepts that isn't super well supported in the current book and those is prime for an army of infamy

I'm currently inclined towards Luthor Harkon and either Dieter Hellsnicht or a new named ghoul king hero using the Gorewarden, Archregent, or Cardinal model, but I am open to opinions & suggestions.



3) Armies of Infamy - arguably the most exciting element of the Arcane Journals, so far each faction gets 2. I'm strongly disinclined to stray from that precedent, which means not doing Armies of Infamy for each bloodline. At least not here. In the mean time though, just 2, and ideally these should enable armies that are otherwise poorly represented by the core vampire count Grand Army composition. That Grand Army is currently pretty broad and versatile, well representing classic vampire count armies, necromancer & wight led undead armies without any vampires at all, and can even use allies to represent mixed vampire and tomb king forces fitting those of Neferata or Arkhan. Ideas for Armies of Infamy that the current Grand Army arguably doesn't quite do well include:

• Strigoi/ghoul armies. Not a lot of units to choose from, no strigany human mercenaries, no hero-level ghoul king, weird choices like horrors vs. fell bats when both are on brand for the army make Strigoi armies much harder to build out of the current Grand Army than other classic vamp count archetypes, so a Strigoi Army of Infamy could be a good choice. This is particularly attractive as an option since additional units are easy to model - Strigany can be represented with empire free company while new ghoul and strigoi vampire units can be drawn straight from the AoS FEC range, with crypt guard and morbheg knights in particular are obvious additions.
• Vampires entrenched in human society - whether blood dragons corrupting a knightly order, von-carsteins or lahmians infiltrating the courts of human nobility, or necrarchs taking over an institute of arcane learning, this is a common vampiric trope in both genre fiction broadly and warhammer fiction in particular, one that needs some degree of access to mortal mercenary units. Though it doesn't need much more than that, if we simply added some empire mercenaries to the Grand Company as an alternative to Tomb Kings allies (perhaps tied to a vampiric power) then there might not be cause for a whole army of infamy for this. On the other hand, if we made this concept slightly modular, with variants for different bloodlines, then we could ~sort of~ do an AoI for each bloodline without breaking the 2 AoI per Arcane Tome limit
• All Cav Knightly Order Blood Dragons. You can sort of put this together with dire wolf core, black knights in core (using wight king heroes) and special, and blood knights in rare, but it's a hassle and doesn't come together as well as you'd like. Then again, if we loosen the Grand Army's restrictions restrictions on cavalry just a little bit, say with a vampiric power that lets you take a single unit of Blood Knights as a Core Unit, then this might not require an entire Army of Infamy. Overlap with the 'entrenched in human society' concept above if combined with mercenary empire or brettonian knights.
• Pirates of the Vampire Coast - Luthor Harkon being probably the best option for special character makes this probably the best choice for Army of Infamy, with obvious additions, many stolen from total warhammer, that are easy to model in zombie pirates (mix and match empire free company with zombie bits) and cannons (take empire cannon models and just stick zombies or skeletons next to them as the crew), damned knights (brettonian knights painted in ghostly colors), Mournguls (no longer sold by GW, but still available on the secondary market), maybe even undead sea monsters (paint dark elf charybdis or hydra with dead flesh, maybe convert a bit of battle damage), etc. They also have a history of allying with Dark Elves, which could make for some interesting allied armies with extra pirate feel from coursairs and the like. The only downside here is that Vampire Coast might eventually get to be its own official faction in tOW, but if that does happen it won't be any time soon.

So yeah, my leaning for Armies of Infamy goes heavily to 'Strigoi Ghoul Court' and 'Vampire Pirates of Sartosa', though, again, open to suggestions.



4) New Magic Items and Vampiric Powers - these have been discussed a bit above, but IF we do explicit bloodline rules THEN there should also be at least one unique vampiric power per bloodline. EG:

• Blood Scions (Von Carstein only, may only be taken on your army's general): If this model is slain (and not returned to life via the Carstein Ring or similar effect), then you may choose another vampire character in your army that is still on the field to immediately become your general. Your general is not treated as slain for victory points purposes or the 'Death of a General' rule. If the chosen model is later slain then your opponent gains victory points for defeating your general and your army suffers the 'Death of a General' effects as normal.
  
  
• Quickblood (Lahmian only): This vampire has the strikes first rule.
  
  
• Dread Knight (Blood Dragon only): this vampire is equipped with Full Plate armor. In addition, whenever an enemy character or champion refuses this vampire's challenge, this vampire gains +1 attack until the end of the turn.
  
  
• Necromantic Mastery (Necrarch only): this vampire knows one of the spells from the Lore of Undeath in addition to the spells they roll for their chosen lore of magic. They may still trade one of their rolled spells for their chosen lore's signature spell or for a second spell from the Lore of Undeath.

Some of those - particularly the Necrarch one, would work well as generic vampiric powers if we don't bring back explicit bloodline rules. There are other classic generic powers that should be brought back (albeit in reduced form), regardless of whether we do bloodlines or not, notably including:

• Red Fury - This vampire gains the hatred (all enemies) and Frenzy rules, and cannot lose them during the game.

Additionally, vampiric powers could be used as mentioned previously to make slight adjustments to the Grand Army composition, allowing for some additional build concepts without requiring entire Armies of Infamy. Examples:

• Master of Mortals (Vampire Count Grand Army only, may only be taken by your general) - your army may include Mercenaries taken from the following: Empire State Troops, Empire Missile Troops, Empire Free Company, Empire Archers. While they are within this models command range, these mercenary units are Immune to Psychology and do not suffer the Misbehaving Mercenaries rule, but if this model is slain all such mercenary units are immediately removed as casualties - they come to their senses and flee the field as the hypnotic control is broken.
  
  
• Circle of Blood (Vampire Count Grand Army only, may only be taken by your general, who must be mounted on a Nightmare) - your army may include a single unit of Blood Knights as a Core Unit, and may include Mercenary units taken from the following: either Empire Knights or Brettonian Knights of the Realm, but not both. While they are within this models command range, these mercenary units are Immune to Psychology and do not suffer the Misbehaving Mercenaries rule, but if this model is slain all such mercenary units are immediately removed as casualties - they come to their senses and flee the field as the hypnotic control is broken.

Obviously there would need to be new magic items as well, but I haven't even begun to think about them yet.

................

So, any thoughts or feedback on the direction so far? In particular:

1. Should there be an explicit Bloodlines rules layer, or no? I'm leaning no at the moment, but have been waffling back and forth since tOW's release.
   
   
2. Are Luthor Harkon and a new named Ghoul King the right special characters to go with? Should Hellsnicht be there instead of one of those, and if so is there a model or easy conversion available to represent him? Should we ignore time frames and just bring back the Von Carsteins?
   
   
3. Are Vampire Pirates and Ghoul Courts the right choices for Armies of Infamy? If not, what do think is a better choice?
   
   
4. Is it ok to use bloodline powers to make cheeky adjustments to the Grand Army composition, or is that a bad design direction? Are there any particular new or returning Vampiric Powers or Magic Items that you think a Vampire Counts Arcane Journal needs to include, or should avoid?

 

[Releonhardt]

I think converting Dieter could be pretty easy with The Manticore from here and parts from These guys. Its not going to be cheap but I think it would be a relatively easy conversion. Zacharius could also be another option at this point in the timeline...I think?

As for Bloodline Powers, personally for me I prefer less restrictions but thats just me I think and would need to depend on the general consensus. I can't really say anything about the Vampire coast since they're not one of the factions I've ever played in Total War.

 

[Sception]

I've looked at that manticore a lot, and i think the conversion would be pretty difficult actually. hard to tatter up feathered wings to make it look more undead, rider and chair are built together awkwardly in a way that would be difficult to swap riders without extensive resculpting or ditching the chair entirely.

the old world't time period is well before zacharias's ascendance. he's either a fledgling student of Melkhior or not even born yet.