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Karthus

Zombie
May 10, 2012
38
Hey guys,

I play warhammer mostly with my brother and he plays only dark elves. He recently switched to running hordes of witch elves for his core choice and combined with hoarded executioners, they are just too powerful.

I try to chaff one of the units and hit the other with the strongest tools I got. Last time this involved 8 horrors and the anvil and a black knight bus as the hammer. All the horrors were wiped out in 1 round of combat, and I barely one combat with the BK bus, which had 2 WK's 1 with nightshroud and the other with fencers blades while being a BS. I ended up with 2 wounds on each character.

But the witch elves are just stupid, they automatically have 3 poisoned attacks each (paired weapons + frenzy) in horde formation, thats 50 poisoned attacks. Thats insane for a core unit. When he gets more points to work with, it starts getting really dumb, because then he gets a Death Hag hero with cauldron of blood which gives them all an additional attack as well as a 5+ ward save.

Now they are toughness 3 with no armor, and thats great, if we had shooting. They are I5-6 with ASF, so they kill around 30 troops before I even get to strike back. I cant attack with my lord either, no matter how equipped either, dealing with 15-18 poisoned attacks is just too much.

Like I said earlier I try to chaff one while throwing everything I have at the other, but theres just no good target for the lord to attack. Either hes dealing with ridiculous amounts of poisoned attacks or has to pray he doesnt get killing blowed by the executioners. They have S6 btw, bc of great weapons but they also have ASF so they hit S6 at I6...

We once had a unit of 40 Executioners versus my 40 GG with GW. 39, no joke, 39 GG were killed before I got my first chance to swing back. yah that wasnt fun. He did have the hero that gave them frenzy, but you get the idea. Anybody have any thoughts for taking down these 2 units? Id really like to avoid having to really on Gaze or Curse of years, we need Vanhels and invocation.
 

Atrophus

Grave Guard
Feb 14, 2014
214
Redirect with wolves and scream :)
Ethereals, they don't have magic weapons and their champions can't take them, only way they can get magic attacks is through a death hag or other character.
So a block of spirit hosts, or cairn wraith unit with banshee and hack and scream away. That way you only have to kill 5 a phase to not lose any to crumble, and t3 no AS/5+ AS elves is easy enough.
 

Karthus

Zombie
May 10, 2012
38
how build would that block of hosts, or cairn/hex wraiths need to be to break even? Prolly around 8-10 attacks, as we all know against elves we hitting on 4s at best. Scream is of course great against everybody, I try to use Tg for the hydra of Kbeast if possible
 

Atrophus

Grave Guard
Feb 14, 2014
214
I'd run the wraiths 5/6 strong with a banshee champ and keep them in range of invocation and any vanhels.
And with the hosts, a few bases strong, I don't reckon they'll kill much, but will tarpit very well for a few rounds.
But just screen them from magic missiles and any pegasus/darksteed mounted characters with magic weapons.
 

Karthus

Zombie
May 10, 2012
38
Dont Magic missiles use true line of sight? Whiceh means the caster can pretty much always see them, even if behind a whole regiment?

Also, what unit would be best for executioners? same type of units?
 

snakezenn

Zombie
Dec 6, 2008
25
I think a unit of zombies backed up by a corpse cart and some magic would work well in this case. Have them 5 wide so they can get a max of 22 attacks and since you have asf as well they lose their rerolls. Then they should do roughly 7 or 8 wounds plus the cr. You could probably hold them there for a couple turns till you deal with the rest of his army.
 

The Sun King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Aug 22, 2012
4,343
Copenhagen
With that many Witches and Executioners he doesn't have point for much else, so essentially he has two death stars. Thankfully there are many tools for death stars (which is why tournament players don't make lists like that). First off the Witches are the easiest target since they are frenzied, use this to your advantage. When a frenzied unit kills a unit in the first turn they MUST overrun, this means that with well placed chaff (place them in the front of the unit in a angle) you can force the witches to run over the board. Dire Wolves are a good choice since they are very fast, vanguard and core, but Fell Bats, Bat Swarms and Spirit Hosts are also good. Force one of his hordes off the board and play the evasion game with the other. You need to shoot it since they hit hard but are squishy (T3 5+ armour save). But how can I shoot if I'm playing VC? I hear you asking. Stock up on magic missiles (gaze of nagash, fireballs with ruby ring and forbidden lore), Rod of Flaming Death (also good for keeping them in place) and then take many screams since with that list your two TGs should be able to roam freely.
 
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filescraps

Skeleton
May 10, 2012
53
sweden
But a horde with 40 witches don't really care if they lose (7 + 6) - 10 = avg 3 wounds per scream. :C
If they have ld 10 that is, but almost everyone has that.

My 50 cent is redirect since they are frenzy they have half the amounts of charges then other units, since you force them to face to overrun in a funny angle.
Raise dead is the best spell death starts. Wind of death is also rather good if you want to try to deplete the unit, but it's not really worth it imo.
uncomped dark elves > uncomped vampire counts.
Our special / rare die to their core and that's without magic support from either side.
 

gilbo12345

Skeleton
Oct 20, 2012
98
Redirecters with the staff of flaming death.

Flame cage and then force them to charge via a unit of direwolves.. Not only does the unit lose roughly over 2/3 of their number (S4 hit per each model + the initial magic missile hits), the redirecters can lead them away from your battle-line meaning he'd now have a depleted unit in a bad position.
 

Archamedius

Grave Guard
Jul 25, 2014
265
A solo red fury vampire lord with a 1+ armor save and a ward will ruin them also, he can beat them in the first round small frontage, limits the attacks and then his 1+ armor save will save him from what the can deal to him, or if you prefer, try to challenge in the first round to get your 6 combat res from the unit champion and take their frenzy, then proceed to murder them slowly (and by slowly I mean 8+ a turn) until they fail a break test.
 

Karthus

Zombie
May 10, 2012
38
remember though, he has them in horde formation, so against me running 5 wide he gets 35 attacks.

They all have 3 attacks(add. hand weapon + frenzy + poison...) so that's 22 from just the front rank and an additional 14 for the 2nd and 3rd rank.

I recently had success with redirecting them with wolves, in a position where he had to overrun off the board, which bought me a turn to murder the rest of his army.
 

Karthus

Zombie
May 10, 2012
38
A solo red fury vampire lord with a 1+ armor save and a ward will ruin them also, he can beat them in the first round small frontage, limits the attacks and then his 1+ armor save will save him from what the can deal to him, or if you prefer, try to challenge in the first round to get your 6 combat res from the unit champion and take their frenzy, then proceed to murder them slowly (and by slowly I mean 8+ a turn) until they fail a break test.

But they has soo many attacks, even doing 10 wounds to the champ will still put me behind in combat rez. In bigger games he puts a cauldron in there too which gives them a further attack, plus poison, it gets ugly.

Can I even challenge the death hag, shes mounted on the cauldron, can she refuse or does she have to accept?
 

filescraps

Skeleton
May 10, 2012
53
sweden
I think that since the cauldron have to stand in the front centre she has to accept the challenge.
Because she can't move to "a none fighting position".
 

Archamedius

Grave Guard
Jul 25, 2014
265
A hag on a cauldron has no where to hide in a unit due to the will of the gods rule and therefor must accept challenges unless a unit champion is present to take on her behalf.

If you charge a red fury vampire in solo to a unit of witch elves, even one with a cauldron he has no unit to bring him down. First round he challenges, and murders the unit champion, for 7 combat res (1 wound+5 overkill+charge) which outdoes their banner+3 ranks. So you won, took their frenzy, witchbrew (if they have it) and they pass their steadfast test on a 9. Next round you end up in a challenge with the death hag, you kill her, and throw your red fury attacks into the cauldron. You should have no problem killing the cauldron after 2 total rounds of combat (hag dies in the first round). After that you will have at most 3 ranks in base with you, they will probably fall out of horde formation, but even if they remain in horde formation, you are facing at most 12 ws 4 str 3 attacks with poison.

Ideally to do this you should have:

vampire lord
Red Fury
Quickblood
1+/4++
 

Banat

Varghulf
Jul 13, 2014
790
Always support your units with batswarms against elves. cloud of darkness or whatever its called makes them asl and removes rerolls.

Also, rod of flaming death on one unit and curse of years on the other. These work best on large horde units.
 

Karthus

Zombie
May 10, 2012
38
They have, at least dark elves, always strikes first. So giving them asl, would cancel those 2 out, and since most of their guys are I5-6 we will still be hitting last, not to mention all the free combat rez the bats would give out being T2.

It is nice for the vamp lord i suppose but I normally have him equipped with quickblood anyway. Also, cloud only gives asl i dont know where the rerolls are coming from.

I might start bringing in rod of flaming death although I like keeping my lvl 4 master necros bare, to keep there price down.
 

Banat

Varghulf
Jul 13, 2014
790
Rerolls comes from the vigor mortis effects of the corpse cart. cast a lov spell on it and units within six inches get asf. bats give elves asl. cc gives your ghouls and gg asf. you WILL strike first. staff of damnation and your units have an extra attack each. ghouls with asf three poisoned attacks. gg with two str 6 killing bow attacks. epic synergy.
 

crimsonsun

Skeleton
Feb 23, 2014
73
kent UK
Interesting Thread; I can possibly offer some insights though I am not a fan of 8th edition I do know the rules and Dark Elves are the only Army I've been playing longer than undead (22years)...

A few questions, firstly how the hell did he kill 39 Grave Guard with Executioners unless you are talking about with crumble as well? Unless of course you are talking about a combined build of characters plus the Unit. The only way I think you could do that sort of Damage would be by including both Tullaris (Frenzy to Unit) and a Death Hag with Witch Brew (Frenzy or makes frenzy +2A to unit) for 45 unit attacks, 6 for the Hag, and 5 for Tullaris, with all the executioner ones being str6 killing blow and all attacks rerolling 1's to wound. This is a seriously big hitting unit but one that costs 1000points alone.

With a block like that you do not have a huge amount of options as Vampire Cav, Heavy Infantry and Monstrous Infantry are mince meet, so you have limited options. Ethereal Units are likely your best bet, a Charge of Spirit Hosts to the front flanked by Wraiths could cause them huge issues, especially when they only sport 5+Armour saves and while held up have a Unit of Hex Wraiths marching though them every turn... If you have to meet them in Combat with more standard infantry then Crypt Horrors and Ghouls in a double Charge but make sure you have a Corpse Cart in support and get Hellish Vigor off, this combination will shatter them.

Witch Elves are less of an issue, even when supported by a cauldron which goes some ways towards negating there biggest weakness - Armour by providing a 5+ ward Save. They really struggle with Armour, even with the boat loads of attacks they can generate they are only Str3, and unlike Executioners only have ws4 so your core does not hit them on 5's. A grave Guard Horde, with banner of the Barrows, hand weapon and Shield, supported by characters and a Corpse Carts Hellish Vigor can break these hags.

Hellish Vigor is essential for the first turn of either of these fights as it will not only counter the Executioners ability to strike first but both units ability to reroll misses. Also both of these units are massive glass cannons, even more so as there strength relies around there access to frenzy, which is beaten out of them after the first loss in combat. On the other hand Frenzy makes them initially immune to Vampire Fear bomb tactics so its a pain in the arse, and while Frenzy can be exploited, not only do dark elves have some of the best chaff of anti redirecting in the game but they have a good enough leadership that restraining from silly charges is not too tricky.

While using these units, it is worth making a quick check your opponent is not cheating and putting any character thats not a Witch elf or Assassin in a unit of Witch Elves (Lords, Masters, Sorceresses, Beastmasters, Dreadfleet captains, BSBs - unless a hag) as these get hit by the unit every single turn. If not where does your opponent hide there sorceresses? You should be going after these ladies as it will give you magical domination which is something you need to take on these 2 Death Stars.

While Hags on Cauldrons can be targeted easily and lack defence, I would not recommend sending a tooled up Vampire after them more than once because next time you do you will meet Death by Assassin. Honestly I am surprised you opponent does not already utilise Assassins against you, as not only can they be fielded with witch elves but when boosted by frenzy and the likes of a Cloak of Twilight and Manbane, or even just a potion of strength and Dark venom they can drop a vampire while there ridiculous WS keeps them alive against anything not a Vampire....
 

Banat

Varghulf
Jul 13, 2014
790
In your fourth and fifth paragraph, when referring to Hellish Vigour, do you mean the spell Hellish Vigour, or the Vigor Mortis special rule from the corpse cart? HV will reroll to wound whilst VM from the corpse cart will confer ASF. Ideally, cast HV on the corpse cart which will then give units in 6" VM as well! Huzzah!
 

Archamedius

Grave Guard
Jul 25, 2014
265
Interesting Thread; I can possibly offer some insights though I am not a fan of 8th edition I do know the rules and Dark Elves are the only Army I've been playing longer than undead (22years)...

A few questions, firstly how the hell did he kill 39 Grave Guard with Executioners unless you are talking about with crumble as well? Unless of course you are talking about a combined build of characters plus the Unit. The only way I think you could do that sort of Damage would be by including both Tullaris (Frenzy to Unit) and a Death Hag with Witch Brew (Frenzy or makes frenzy +2A to unit) for 45 unit attacks, 6 for the Hag, and 5 for Tullaris, with all the executioner ones being str6 killing blow and all attacks rerolling 1's to wound. This is a seriously big hitting unit but one that costs 1000points alone.

With a block like that you do not have a huge amount of options as Vampire Cav, Heavy Infantry and Monstrous Infantry are mince meet, so you have limited options. Ethereal Units are likely your best bet, a Charge of Spirit Hosts to the front flanked by Wraiths could cause them huge issues, especially when they only sport 5+Armour saves and while held up have a Unit of Hex Wraiths marching though them every turn... If you have to meet them in Combat with more standard infantry then Crypt Horrors and Ghouls in a double Charge but make sure you have a Corpse Cart in support and get Hellish Vigor off, this combination will shatter them.

Witch Elves are less of an issue, even when supported by a cauldron which goes some ways towards negating there biggest weakness - Armour by providing a 5+ ward Save. They really struggle with Armour, even with the boat loads of attacks they can generate they are only Str3, and unlike Executioners only have ws4 so your core does not hit them on 5's. A grave Guard Horde, with banner of the Barrows, hand weapon and Shield, supported by characters and a Corpse Carts Hellish Vigor can break these hags.

Hellish Vigor is essential for the first turn of either of these fights as it will not only counter the Executioners ability to strike first but both units ability to reroll misses. Also both of these units are massive glass cannons, even more so as there strength relies around there access to frenzy, which is beaten out of them after the first loss in combat. On the other hand Frenzy makes them initially immune to Vampire Fear bomb tactics so its a pain in the arse, and while Frenzy can be exploited, not only do dark elves have some of the best chaff of anti redirecting in the game but they have a good enough leadership that restraining from silly charges is not too tricky.

While using these units, it is worth making a quick check your opponent is not cheating and putting any character thats not a Witch elf or Assassin in a unit of Witch Elves (Lords, Masters, Sorceresses, Beastmasters, Dreadfleet captains, BSBs - unless a hag) as these get hit by the unit every single turn. If not where does your opponent hide there sorceresses? You should be going after these ladies as it will give you magical domination which is something you need to take on these 2 Death Stars.

While Hags on Cauldrons can be targeted easily and lack defence, I would not recommend sending a tooled up Vampire after them more than once because next time you do you will meet Death by Assassin. Honestly I am surprised you opponent does not already utilise Assassins against you, as not only can they be fielded with witch elves but when boosted by frenzy and the likes of a Cloak of Twilight and Manbane, or even just a potion of strength and Dark venom they can drop a vampire while there ridiculous WS keeps them alive against anything not a Vampire....

I fail to see how a dark elf assassin could really threaten vampire lord.

Lets take a look at the two scenarios you proposed.

1) Dark Elf Assassin with Cloak of Twilight and Manbane poison. We will assume extra hand weapon and even give him witchbrew from the hag. So he has 5 WS 9 STR 4 attacks that are at +1 to wound and one the first round of combat cause d3 wounds and has killing blow.

Your vampire lord should be kitted with Red Fury, Quick Blood and have a 1+/4++ if you are solo charging him anywhere. So we will assume that.

Since both have ASF, all attacks are simultaneous and no one gets re-rolls.

Dark Elf Swings, he has WS 9 to your 7 so he hits on 3s. 5 attacks, assume 3 hit, and rounding up, 2 wound. Unless he gets lucky, hes not getting a killing blow on 3 to to wound rolls, and even if he does, the odds are 50/50 of you saving it. She causes 2 str 4 wounds on average and you are saving on 2+/4++ (or 4++ for killing blow).

You swing back, with 5 WS 7 str 5 attacks. You hit 2.5 times (round down to 2 for benefit to assassin) and wound on 2s for a dead assassin (no save and only 2 wounds). even if you cause only 1 wound, red fury kicks in giving you another shot at the kill.

So in order for this assassin to get a kill on the vampire lord, he has to have everything go his way including getting a killing blow to wound roll off on 3 to wound rolls. Can it happen? Yes, are the odds in his favor? No, not even close.

Remember also that in order to do this, he has also devoted a unit with a death hag that has witch brew to this trap. Witch brew means frenzy tests are at -3 LD, so this unit is testing for frenzy on a 6. Odds are in your favor of that unit failing it's frenzy test. This unit is very easy to frenzy bait with dire wolves or spirit hosts or other redirectors. You could very easily choose to ignore it with proper movement and redirection with small units. Assuming it is a unit of Witch Elves and the Hag has a cauldron (so the unit has durability) that unit is now close to 700 points before the 162 point assassin. Lead that unit around with chaff and mop up the rest of his army with your stuff that isn't testing for frenzy on a 6 and call it a day. He may have shooting to devote to removing redirectors, but most of the time his dark riders are hitting on 5s or worse and wounding your stuff on 4s or worse. It's not very easy for him to clear a unit of wolves without some significant effort, which reduces pressure on you elsewhere as a result.

2) Assassin with potion of strength and dark venom. We will again assume hag with witch brew for 5 WS 9 STR 4+3 attacks). Both have ASF so he is hitting you on 3s no re-rolls. Assume 3 hits, his odds are again in your favor of not getting a killing blow, but this time he is wounding on 2s. So assume 3 wounds that's dangerous! You however are saving all 3 on 5+/4++. Odds are you survive with at least 1 wound left, and in return you again murder him, potentially gaining a wound back with Hunger for Blood.

Can either of these assassins kill you outright? Yes it is possible. But when strictly looking at the odds, it is not in his favor. Will it happen? If you play out the scenario enough times I am sure it will, but I don't think the dark elf assassin is something to be feared. he is unfortunately a neutered version of the skaven assassin.
 

crimsonsun

Skeleton
Feb 23, 2014
73
kent UK
In your fourth and fifth paragraph, when referring to Hellish Vigour, do you mean the spell Hellish Vigour, or the Vigor Mortis special rule from the corpse cart? HV will reroll to wound whilst VM from the corpse cart will confer ASF. Ideally, cast HV on the corpse cart which will then give units in 6" VM as well! Huzzah!

Yeah sorry Vigor Mortis.. I am dyslexic and as I mentioned while I keep fully upto date I do make mistakes in naming.

I fail to see how a dark elf assassin could really threaten vampire lord.

Lets take a look at the two scenarios you proposed.

1) Dark Elf Assassin with Cloak of Twilight and Manbane poison. We will assume extra hand weapon and even give him witchbrew from the hag. So he has 5 WS 9 STR 4 attacks that are at +1 to wound and one the first round of combat cause d3 wounds and has killing blow.

Your vampire lord should be kitted with Red Fury, Quick Blood and have a 1+/4++ if you are solo charging him anywhere. So we will assume that.

Since both have ASF, all attacks are simultaneous and no one gets re-rolls.

Dark Elf Swings, he has WS 9 to your 7 so he hits on 3s. 5 attacks, assume 3 hit, and rounding up, 2 wound. Unless he gets lucky, hes not getting a killing blow on 3 to to wound rolls, and even if he does, the odds are 50/50 of you saving it. She causes 2 str 4 wounds on average and you are saving on 2+/4++ (or 4++ for killing blow).

You swing back, with 5 WS 7 str 5 attacks. You hit 2.5 times (round down to 2 for benefit to assassin) and wound on 2s for a dead assassin (no save and only 2 wounds). even if you cause only 1 wound, red fury kicks in giving you another shot at the kill.

So in order for this assassin to get a kill on the vampire lord, he has to have everything go his way including getting a killing blow to wound roll off on 3 to wound rolls. Can it happen? Yes, are the odds in his favor? No, not even close.

Remember also that in order to do this, he has also devoted a unit with a death hag that has witch brew to this trap. Witch brew means frenzy tests are at -3 LD, so this unit is testing for frenzy on a 6. Odds are in your favor of that unit failing it's frenzy test. This unit is very easy to frenzy bait with dire wolves or spirit hosts or other redirectors. You could very easily choose to ignore it with proper movement and redirection with small units. Assuming it is a unit of Witch Elves and the Hag has a cauldron (so the unit has durability) that unit is now close to 700 points before the 162 point assassin. Lead that unit around with chaff and mop up the rest of his army with your stuff that isn't testing for frenzy on a 6 and call it a day. He may have shooting to devote to removing redirectors, but most of the time his dark riders are hitting on 5s or worse and wounding your stuff on 4s or worse. It's not very easy for him to clear a unit of wolves without some significant effort, which reduces pressure on you elsewhere as a result.

2) Assassin with potion of strength and dark venom. We will again assume hag with witch brew for 5 WS 9 STR 4+3 attacks). Both have ASF so he is hitting you on 3s no re-rolls. Assume 3 hits, his odds are again in your favor of not getting a killing blow, but this time he is wounding on 2s. So assume 3 wounds that's dangerous! You however are saving all 3 on 5+/4++. Odds are you survive with at least 1 wound left, and in return you again murder him, potentially gaining a wound back with Hunger for Blood.

Can either of these assassins kill you outright? Yes it is possible. But when strictly looking at the odds, it is not in his favor. Will it happen? If you play out the scenario enough times I am sure it will, but I don't think the dark elf assassin is something to be feared. he is unfortunately a neutered version of the skaven assassin.

Without a doubt your Math is fine and the odd on an Assassin killing your Vampire Lord a very low but those sneaky blighters tend to pull out the trumps every now and again. Now when running straight Math Hammer yeah it seems like a Vampire lord is going to laugh off his attacks but I was pointing out that there inclusion and attacks are very likely a risk you do not want to take being hit by, as the one Character we cannot loose is said vampire. Also remember that if the Vampire is busy fighting the Assassin scoring lets say 2wounds he is not mincing though those Toughness 3, 5+ Armour Elves thus his addition to combat goes from around 5, now if he is solo charging (which is not what I was suggesting) he has 2 combat resolution, against 1 suffered, +3 ranks, +standard... Opps you just popped. In a unit (the sensible option IMO) he is still producing far less combat resolution and with instability combat res is vital.

I am a huge fan of Assassins, honestly all they really need is Dark venom and and additional Hand weapon, especially in a unit with Witch brew. 116pts, 5 killing blow, ws9, str4, Murderous prowess, Asf, I10, poisoned attacks.. Its not bad.. especially when u include there hidden deployment, which can be used to target Necromancers, wizards or other at risk support guys BUT when facing a Undead Army and presented with a shot at the General its always worth rolling those dice... (I have dropped just about every type of General with them bar Dwarfs and Slann).

Obviously this is purely subjective and you may consider it a risk not worth bothering concerning yourself with ;), which is of course your decision and not wrong I was purely pointing out... I also said Drop a Vampire not a tooled up Lord (though it is possible), which I was meaning in terms of concern for combat resolution.

Thanks for reading :D

crimsonsun
 

Archamedius

Grave Guard
Jul 25, 2014
265
Yeah sorry Vigor Mortis.. I am dyslexic and as I mentioned while I keep fully upto date I do make mistakes in naming.



Without a doubt your Math is fine and the odd on an Assassin killing your Vampire Lord a very low but those sneaky blighters tend to pull out the trumps every now and again. Now when running straight Math Hammer yeah it seems like a Vampire lord is going to laugh off his attacks but I was pointing out that there inclusion and attacks are very likely a risk you do not want to take being hit by, as the one Character we cannot loose is said vampire. Also remember that if the Vampire is busy fighting the Assassin scoring lets say 2wounds he is not mincing though those Toughness 3, 5+ Armour Elves thus his addition to combat goes from around 5, now if he is solo charging (which is not what I was suggesting) he has 2 combat resolution, against 1 suffered, +3 ranks, +standard... Opps you just popped. In a unit (the sensible option IMO) he is still producing far less combat resolution and with instability combat res is vital.

I am a huge fan of Assassins, honestly all they really need is Dark venom and and additional Hand weapon, especially in a unit with Witch brew. 116pts, 5 killing blow, ws9, str4, Murderous prowess, Asf, I10, poisoned attacks.. Its not bad.. especially when u include there hidden deployment, which can be used to target Necromancers, wizards or other at risk support guys BUT when facing a Undead Army and presented with a shot at the General its always worth rolling those dice... (I have dropped just about every type of General with them bar Dwarfs and Slann).

Obviously this is purely subjective and you may consider it a risk not worth bothering concerning yourself with ;), which is of course your decision and not wrong I was purely pointing out... I also said Drop a Vampire not a tooled up Lord (though it is possible), which I was meaning in terms of concern for combat resolution.

Thanks for reading :D

crimsonsun


You make valid points! He is a risk. I think in an open list environment, if there is an elf assassin on the other side who could tie you up like that, then the solo charge out at a witch elf horde isn't wise. I originally proposed the idea based on open list tournament where you know what your opponent is packing. I'd fall back to redirectors for the unit in a closed list or one where that tooled up assassin exists. Keep it busy the whole game chasing your chaff and ignore it. Or even better, redirect it into a building and the block it up with a second unit of fliers (bats per chance) so it gets tied up for several turns.
 

crimsonsun

Skeleton
Feb 23, 2014
73
kent UK
You make valid points! He is a risk. I think in an open list environment, if there is an elf assassin on the other side who could tie you up like that, then the solo charge out at a witch elf horde isn't wise. I originally proposed the idea based on open list tournament where you know what your opponent is packing. I'd fall back to redirectors for the unit in a closed list or one where that tooled up assassin exists. Keep it busy the whole game chasing your chaff and ignore it. Or even better, redirect it into a building and the block it up with a second unit of fliers (bats per chance) so it gets tied up for several turns.

I can imagine in a open list environment Assassins and the like are a lot less scary, personally I play purely in narrative, non competitive (though they are actually really competitive I just mean in a pure beer and pretzels style) gaming environment so assassins, magic items etc are always hidden..
 

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
True Blood
Dec 23, 2012
2,046
Oregon
We have a number of tools to deal with this:

Curse of years, purple sun, wind of death. All can get the damage hitting in the amount you need.

Wolves, fell bats, spirit hosts can easily redirect.

Raise dead could keep witch elves tired up all game. This literally could be all you need.

Spirit hosts and hex wraiths will ruin witch elves in hand to hand. Once engaged to front, get your hammers in their flank. The witch elves can't reform and will only get the attacks on the end.

As Sunny said, there is a reason death stars aren't used by pro level players. No synergy and once the death Star goes down, is game over. Armies that are better balanced can have a come back from losing important units.
 

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