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Dealing with Black Orcs & Savage Orc Big 'Uns @ 2000pts

Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
11
#1
Hello Everyone :)

I have a very specific problem, which is unfortunately the only opponent I have to play Warhammer with is running a particularly devastating combination for me, that I am struggling to cope with.

A unit of 30+ Black Orcs & a unit of Savage Orc Big 'Uns also 30+ strong.

The rest of his army doesn't bother me, it's goblin casters and wolf riders which are really a nuisance wherein his two unit combo is something I cannot deal with.

The problem isn't the lack of tools for me, it's the lack of points!

Normally I run with something along the lines of this:

Blender Lord ( L1, Ogre Blade, Amulet of Preservation, Enchanted Shield, Red Fury, Quickblood )
sitting in a 9x Black Knight Bus, full upgrades, full command, banner of swiftness.

A unit of 45 Skellies, full command, screaming banner.

2 units of 20 zombies, full command

2x 5 Dire Wolves

2x Spirit Host

5x Hexwraiths with Champ ( trialed them for the first time last night, love them. )

Necro Lord l4 Lore of Vamps, and a level 1 Necro for carrying a magic item.

and a terrorgheist.



Last night, where I lost for two reasons ( 4 - 1 in his favour on games so far ), never getting above a 6 for magic with channels, and then wiping out his savage orc big uns and then being charged and overrun on my hexwraiths onto my now battered BK Bus, causing the Lord to Crumble with an exact -4 CR, courtesy of his Black Orcs

With this in mind I can only think that the BK Bus at this point level doesn't work against an army packing that much hammer and anvil in two units.


My instinct is to drop the Bus and get 40x Grave guard with Great Weapons, stuff the Vampire on foot in there with an otherwise similar set up and then make him front charge me, which will be bloody on both sides, not to mention risky.


The other major issue is I go from one unit with a tonne of points in it, to another one units with even more points in it stopping me from buying much else other than Core, a Necrolord and a mortis engine or terrorgheist.

But with our core being bloody terrible, especially against Orcs it seems, I can't rely on that either.


So...........

What do you guys suggest?
 

Mad 'At

Dumb enough to work
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#2
What characters does he have in the units and what gear? OnG are generally quite dependant on character so if you could snipe them out with Death magic it'd be nice, or in a challenge with a Wight King.

Other than that I'd say that the main thing to do is focus on one of the units and redirect the other. Savage Orcs have Frenzy so they suffer a lot from redirecting. That leaves you with just the Black Orcs to handle which should be manageable. You should probably take one or two more units of direwolves to help with the redirecting.
 
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
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#3
What characters does he have in the units and what gear? OnG are generally quite dependant on character so if you could snipe them out with Death magic it'd be nice, or in a challenge with a Wight King.

Other than that I'd say that the main thing to do is focus on one of the units and redirect the other. Savage Orcs have Frenzy so they suffer a lot from redirecting. That leaves you with just the Black Orcs to handle which should be manageable. You should probably take one or two more units of direwolves to help with the redirecting.

His Warboss is a Black Orc with LD9, so getting the buggers to follow my dire wolves around has been a real challenge, since they sit within his bubble. Other than two mages, Night Goblins and a Savage Orc, his characters are a Goblin Big Boss on Wolf and his Warboss.

Quite gear light though, he only takes magic weapons on his Goblin Big Boss ( Shrieking Blade ) for Fear, so he doesn't have to fear test his Wolf Riders.

He takes a BSB too.

I guess the answer is to take a L4 Death Mage, I don't really want to utilize Purple Sun, but he did use that bloody Moon Spell on me last game, admittedly to not much success, so I feel the gloves are off when it comes to that!

My concern with that is that it may leave me very weak when it comes to the magic side of things, unless I maintain my usual L4 Necro with Vamps too, and then we are talking about 850 pts out of 2000 on Lord Choices alone. Unless I drop my Vampire Lord, which I can see as a possibility, dealing with Black Orcs and Savage Orc Big Uns does mean that while he is still very killy, he is really, really vulnerable
 
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
442
#4
My suggestion would be to get as many Banshee Heroes as you can, move them around the flanks of the Savage Big 'Uns and scream them to death. (Trade the Terrorgheist points for banshees.) Try to get something in there that will de-buff his Ld so the Banshee screams are even more devastating.

I like the idea of GW Grave Guard instead of the BK bus. Put some Wight Kings in the units to challenge and kill his shaman (and drop their ward save back to a 6). Make sure you have at least 1 dispel scroll to stop the Foot of Gork spell. But getting in there and killing his shaman is priority one.

You can replenish your losses, he can't so perhaps a few level 2 Necros would be better than a Lv 4 so you can get off more invocations per turn. You might even do better with an all-core army. Lots of skeletons, zombies, or ghouls to swamp him in troops. Lots of mediocre troops that won't break and can come back can sometimes outlast a giant block of elites.
 

Borgnine

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Jun 15, 2013
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#5
Even if they have a warboss to aid them with frenzy, little units of wolves or bats flying in front of them at weird angles can still severly diminish their maneuverability and options on the battlefield.

I would be wary of putting zombies in front of them, especially the savage orcs, with the amount of attacks, they will plow quickly even through a really big unit.
 
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#6
My suggestion would be to get as many Banshee Heroes as you can, move them around the flanks of the Savage Big 'Uns and scream them to death. (Trade the Terrorgheist points for banshees.) Try to get something in there that will de-buff his Ld so the Banshee screams are even more devastating.

I like the idea of GW Grave Guard instead of the BK bus. Put some Wight Kings in the units to challenge and kill his shaman (and drop their ward save back to a 6). Make sure you have at least 1 dispel scroll to stop the Foot of Gork spell. But getting in there and killing his shaman is priority one.

You can replenish your losses, he can't so perhaps a few level 2 Necros would be better than a Lv 4 so you can get off more invocations per turn. You might even do better with an all-core army. Lots of skeletons, zombies, or ghouls to swamp him in troops. Lots of mediocre troops that won't break and can come back can sometimes outlast a giant block of elites.
Mercifully he hasn't taken shrunken head and a savage orc mage ( yet! ), so that's atleast one positive.

The problem with Banshees at this level are two-fold, unless I am missing the obvious!

1) Terrorghiest is 225 points for 6 wounds, T6, with a better scream ( 2D6+Remaining Wounds - Target LD ) rather than a Banshees ( 2D6 - Target LD ) for 95 points, trading down the Terrorgheist would mean 190 pts for S3 T3 A1 W2 x 2.

2) He will just charge them down with his wolves and kill her on CR and given that he gives his big boss a magic weapon, he could actually kill her too, so in all likely hood, if they are floating about on their own, they will be CR'd to death before they get near his Savage Orcs, where in the Terrorgheist can fly march ( Which he hates, because he can never get a unit of his in charge arc! :D )

The other issue is points at this time, at 2000 points a unit of GW GG with a Banner of Barrows is 560 points, then mandatory core of 500 points, then, if I am taking an L4 Death Necro, I must take either a Vampire Lord or a L4 LoV Necro for the General rule. Therefore I am spending 500 or so points on Lord Choices ( if I pick the L4 LoV Necro ) leaving me with 440 points.


Even if they have a warboss to aid them with frenzy, little units of wolves or bats flying in front of them at weird angles can still severly diminish their maneuverability and options on the battlefield.

I would be wary of putting zombies in front of them, especially the savage orcs, with the amount of attacks, they will plow quickly even through a really big unit.

Yeah and this is the bit I've been arguing with myself over a lot. Core.

Zombies are nice and cheap at 70 points ( FC ) per unit which can grow nicely during magic, BUT Savage Orc Big Uns will kill Zombies by the bucket load, much faster than they can be raised and that's before CR crumbles another bucket load away. I think on average when my zombies fight his Savage Orc Big Uns I lose something like 20 per turn, and unless I dedicate all my magic to keeping them up, which is very variable at the best of times, a losing battle.

Skellies fare not much better, the saving grace being a 6+ Parry Ward and post Choppa Rule on turn 1 of combat ) a 6/6, but that saves less than 2 in every 10 wounded skellies.

So I am wondering, do I go with 2 large blocks of skellies ( Can field 85 of them at last model count ) or do I turn my core into Crypt Ghouls and Dogs?


40 Ghouls + Champ / 2 Units of Dogs ( 1 with Champ to make min core ) / 40 GG with Barrows and White King with Nightshroud

Then I am effectively playing him at his own game. My Ghouls will strike before his orcs, attacking 42 times when you take frontage into consideration, I will likely kill with 25% of those hits, so about 10 Big Uns dead, then their return will kill 33% of his 30 attacks ( give or take ) meaning 10/11 die, which is a much fairer fight. (Head Math so might not be 100% on the money)

GG with Wight King and Barrows will kill with about 45-50% given banner/GW/Killing Blow of their 21 attacks, again that's about 10 to 10, meaning that eventually I will just outnumber him with IoN Spam.

My reluctance to do that is simply that I am putting a lot of points into two units to counter two units of his, which seems.............. Dumb.
 

Mad 'At

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#7
One or two lvl1 death necros should do the trick of sniping out his general. Keep them near your vampire lord and they can use the signature spell at Ld10. Since he doesn't have magic resistance you should be able to kill him pretty fast. I agree that going for a lvl4 with Purple Sun is just boring, don't do that if you can avoid it.

As @Borgnine pointed out, the trick with redirecting frenzy is not their risk of being forced to charge, it is that they ALWAYS have to overrun. Put a small unit of dogs in front of them at an angle (but still with the orcs in their front). Now he can either charge them and be forced to overrun away from your army (buying you two turns of not having to deal with them) or he can not charge the dogs and not be able to move forward.

Ghouls for core is probably a good idea. Striking first matters quite a bit.
 
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
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#8
One or two lvl1 death necros should do the trick of sniping out his general. Keep them near your vampire lord and they can use the signature spell at Ld10. Since he doesn't have magic resistance you should be able to kill him pretty fast.
Can they? The spell description says it uses the casters unmodified leadership, which in the case of a Necromancer is Ld7

Unless I have been doing screaming wrong, where I have been insistent that the unit receiving uses it's own Ld and not the Generals as they are within his 12" bubble.

In either case, neither is a Leadership test.
 

Mad 'At

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#9
@Asarios: That whole thing was a bloody mess. The last FAQ from GW contain the following to questions on it:

Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership? (p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can be used unless specifically stated otherwise.
and

Q: Do units benefit from their General’s Inspiring Presence for the purposes of spells that use Leadership, such as Spirit Leech or Okkam’s Mindrazor? (p107)
A: Yes.
Quite plainly they contradicts each other since Spirit Leech says that you use unmodified leadership. But in this case I think it's pretty safe to assume that you us IP, since the second specifically mentions Spirit Leech.

The scream in another matter and I can't quite recall how it worked actually =/
I'd say go by the first FAQ and say that IP doesn't work.
 
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Jun 27, 2014
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#10
If a unit is hard to kill the best VC can do is to not kill that unit but instead prevent it from earnings its points back. I do not see why direwolves and fellbats for redirects and zombies for tarpits won't work on the orks. The frenzy makes this tactic even more viable.
I'm not a fan of trailing a list against one opponent, so I would try to make this tactic work. What problems do you encounter exactly when trying to redirect? There is also a guide hiw to redirect somewhere on this forum.
 
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
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#11
@Mad 'At Thanks! That helps a great deal! :)


If a unit is hard to kill the best VC can do is to not kill that unit but instead prevent it from earnings its points back. I do not see why direwolves and fellbats for redirects and zombies for tarpits won't work on the orks. The frenzy makes this tactic even more viable.
I'm not a fan of trailing a list against one opponent, so I would try to make this tactic work. What problems do you encounter exactly when trying to redirect? There is also a guide hiw to redirect somewhere on this forum.
I don't have a choice but to trial a list against one opponent, because regrettably at my club it's only us who have any interest in playing WFB ( Although many come by and watch! )

I think the problem I've been having, is simply that I have been doing it wrong.

I have been putting my wolves at his max charge distance and then waiting for him to fail to prevent him to attempt to charge.

I think what I should be doing (based on what has been said here) is get my wolves in a position where his only option is to charge ( or make a dramatic change of course ) and then allow him to overrun into nowhere, effectively meaning that he has to spend the next 2/3 turns getting his unit back into position.
 
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#12
Mercifully he hasn't taken shrunken head and a savage orc mage ( yet! ), so that's atleast one positive.
WHAT? Does he know about that item? o.o

The problem with Banshees at this level are two-fold, unless I am missing the obvious!

1) Terrorghiest is 225 points for 6 wounds, T6, with a better scream ( 2D6+Remaining Wounds - Target LD ) rather than a Banshees ( 2D6 - Target LD ) for 95 points, trading down the Terrorgheist would mean 190 pts for S3 T3 A1 W2 x 2.

2) He will just charge them down with his wolves and kill her on CR and given that he gives his big boss a magic weapon, he could actually kill her too, so in all likely hood, if they are floating about on their own, they will be CR'd to death before they get near his Savage Orcs, where in the Terrorgheist can fly march ( Which he hates, because he can never get a unit of his in charge arc! :D )
The O&G players I face use Rock Lobbas, so there's no way a TG would survive the first turn or two.

Keep the Banshees in a unit for the approach, and then pop them out so they're not stuck in the fight. (Or keep them in if you think the unit can survive and there aren't any magic items in the Savage Orc unit to take them out.) Use the Screaming Banner so he's taking his Fear test on 3 dice. If he's got to use WS 1 against you, that will help.

Can you post his typical list so I know what you're up against? I'm thinking of crunching a VC list as a suggestion to counter it. You're using regular 8th Ed rules, right? Any End Times stuff (like 50% Lords/ Heroes, magic, etc.)?

With the 50% Heroes, you could literally take 10 Banshees. He might get a couple of them, but you can scream his army off the table. (Kind of a dick move, though, and it would be your last game with that player.) ;)
 
Joined
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#13
WHAT? Does he know about that item? o.o
Can you post his typical list so I know what you're up against? I'm thinking of crunching a VC list as a suggestion to counter it. You're using regular 8th Ed rules, right? Any End Times stuff (like 50% Lords/ Heroes, magic, etc.)?

With the 50% Heroes, you could literally take 10 Banshees. He might get a couple of them, but you can scream his army off the table. (Kind of a dick move, though, and it would be your last game with that player.) ;)

Sorry, it's been a bit manic here last week or so!

It's something like this

Black Orc Warboss

35 BlOrcs w/ BSB

35 Savage Orc Big Uns

Gobo Shaman L2/3

Night Gobo Shaman L1/2

5 Wolf Riders

1 Goblin Boss on Wolf Rider

Rock Lobba

Night Goblins with Fanatics ( Occasionally )

Mangler Squig

35 Normal Orcs

That should give you the flavour of it! :)

EDIT: Oh yeah, it's standard 8th :)
 
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
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#14
An update!

So we had our monthly game of Warhammer last night and we played one of the narrative battles, the one with the river.

Despite both of us have dreadful magic phases, I ended up winning on victory points by a very healthy margin.

My big change was not taking a Vampire in any form and taking 40 Grave guard with a Wight King.

It all started to go wrong for him when I Dog Darted his BSB and then put his Orcs to flight with a skellie block and dogs catching them with my dogs.

His Black Orcs took the ford while his Savage Orc Big Uns got bogged down in Skellies with a Banshee and my Grave Guard. After 2 turns of fighting the Savage Orcs ran off the table. We ended up with an objective a piece but me quite far ahead in Victory Points.

Was a great game and a bit more touch and go than it seems.

I didnt miss a Vampire at all and liked the fact I didnt have anything that came with a huge target attached to it. Ill post the list when I get home.
 
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