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Do you feel put off at all?

Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
188
#1
A few months before the latest book came out, I started Vampire Counts. I wanted to make a unique army, based around making a mockery of the gleaming High Elf ranks (in other words, some sort of decaying/mutated High Elves) - and Vamps were ideal for that.

I've put a lot of time and effort into the army, and still am doing so. But with this recent mindset of Vampire Counts being overpowered, and being one of the top two armies ... it's just put me off them a little bit.

They're my favourite army, without a doubt - I love everything about them. But when I win games I want it to be because I have played well, not because I'm playing an army that is easy to win with. I don't want to feel as though I can't take items because they're too good, or feel as though I should purposely avoid certain units.

Maybe in time things like the Drakenhof Banner won't be as bad. When Lizards start dishing out 2D6 Strength 5 hits from their stegadons, and other armies get their new books it might even become mandatory. But at the moment I'm just feeling a bit put off Vampires.

Anyone else feel the same way?
 

Arion

Vampire Lord
True Blood
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
3,414
#2
A year ago woodelves were viewed as stupidly overpowered. Now, they are viewed as a middle tier, 50/50 army, a normal not to powerful army.

A year from now, vamps will be viewed the same way as woodelves are now. Its all just part of the power creep.

I'm not to worried about others views on the army, especially since my main opponent plays daemons!
 

N.I.B

Master Necromancer
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Sep 26, 2007
Messages
2,370
#3
If you get your kicks from being an underdog - tough.

But you aren't forced to bring the Drakenhof or the cookie cutter caster lord, Helm of Commandment, Red Fury, Black Knight bus or other good stuff. If it really bothers you, tone it down.
 
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
188
#4
In the Australian Masters, Vampire Counts could bring 2000 points max to a 2250 tournament.

Drakenhof took a hero slot.

Someone took a very kind list, with 6 power dice, no drakenhof, a balanced lord with the biting blade, etc. Lots of skeletons, no bus. And on top of having less points than other armies, because of a bad comp score he was knocked down to 6th place despite finishing 3rd in battle points.

Even with toning down your army, you can't escape from it.
 
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
6
#5
Dreadlegions said:
In the Australian Masters, Vampire Counts could bring 2000 points max to a 2250 tournament.

Drakenhof took a hero slot.

Someone took a very kind list, with 6 power dice, no drakenhof, a balanced lord with the biting blade, etc. Lots of skeletons, no bus. And on top of having less points than other armies, because of a bad comp score he was knocked down to 6th place despite finishing 3rd in battle points.

Even with toning down your army, you can't escape from it.
The Vampire lists from the Australian Masters were 2250 just like everyone else. Maybe you are thinking of the rules for the ETC? I think that the reason Vampires are hit so hard with comp scores and the like is because everyone is so cautious of Vampires being overly powerful. Its basically a paranoia of Vampires.
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
36
#7
Sadly Demetri I dont see it as paranoia. I see it as truth. One of the problems though is so many people run the super strong items that GW decided to put into it and get themselves a super GG unit that is unkillable and destroys whatever it touches. But give it another year and Vamps will still be strong but other armies will have ways to deal with them. I see Lizardmen being a major problem for us and Skaven might be one also.

Although in the ETC rules I dont see the Helm of Commandment needing to be a hero choice. Just get the guy into combat, and it is only one unit.
 
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
188
#8
Hero choice was at the masters. It's the fact that the tier system makes Vampires only able to take 2000 points that might be happening at the other one.
 

Bug16

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Aug 30, 2007
Messages
1,166
#9
I have to agree with N.I.B. on this one. If you want a challenge play a softer VC list and don't take the obvious items that unbalance the army.

I've actually been playing with my DE's quite a bit recently as I just find them more interesting to play than my VC's. *shrug*
 
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
188
#10
It's not about wanting a challenge. It's about not wanting to play an army that people feel is flat out over-powered. Even if you don't take those items (and I don't take the Drakenhof Banner anyway) then people still give you rubbish comp because you're Vampire Counts. People still complain when they lose, blaming the loss on Vampire Counts and not the fact that they were out-played.

The game is immensely anti-VC at the moment, and I guess it's just put me off a bit. Which is not a nice feeling, considering how much money and time I've spent.

I don't know... just feeling a bit meh at the moment.
 

N.I.B

Master Necromancer
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#11
Ah, so the problem is comp, that explains it. I hate comp. Thankfully we don't have comp in my region. The whole point of comp scores is to not have to restrict stuff. If you have restrictions you shouldn't be using comp. I much prefer restrictions to comp, however.

We will use the ETC restrictions next tournament. VC and DoC can only take 2050 points to a 2250 tournament, Helm of Commandment = hero choice, Drakenhof = hero choice
+1 to cast = +1 power dice for each bonus
bound spells = +1 power dice
with a cap on 10 power dice used per turn

But reading different forums, DoC is the army regarded as broken, while VC is regarded as very hard, along with DE to some degree.
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
784
#12
Personally then Dreadlegions, the people that you play against are a big bunch of whiners and they need to get over it.

I am tired of the current VC getting such a bad rap, especially when you have armies like chaos daemons and the chaos mortals being made so hard and combat masters (as they always are).

Yes, the drakenhof banner is particularly nasty, being as though most times it will go on either Grave Guard or a nice size unit of Black Knights, who usually have a mounted character with them. But you are made to pay through the teeth for it if you do choose to take it. And you know what happened the one time I have taken it (oh, I will take it again mind you, but I don't get to play many 2250 pts games) so far? My DE opponent shot at it in one turn, saw how the Black Knight he managed to kill popped back up with the regen, and then proceeded to refuse to target that unit with any shooting for the rest of the game. Sure, the BK were safe, but the rest of my big blocks took a hell of a lot of fire as a result.

And have you played the new DE?? I'm used to always facing a ton of shooting from them, at least, at the very least 50+ bolts a turn, but now I also get multiple assassins popping out of units, and a lovely Hydra to try to deal with, let alone take out.

In 6th ed, I played Lahmians. Loved them, still do. But to be honest, playing an army where you really have to work at to get a chance at winning is not alot of fun. So I don't begrudge at all that the current VC are a competative army. The whiners and people who keep making up house and tournament rules to penalise the VC just need to stop being such a bunch of pussies. Or they need to be fair and start limiting daemon lists in the same way, or limiting the number of rattling guns and warp lightening cannons and cannons and volley guns and steam tanks etc. that players can take in their lists.

And you know what? If you come across a player(s) that is going to give a rubbish comp score just because you play Vampire Counts, and they will blame their loss on the fact that you chose to play Vampire Counts, then be just as big an asshole back to them. Give them a crap comp score. When they whine that they only lost because you were playing Vampire Counts, tell them to stop being such a pussy and to suck it up. It's not nice, no, but I am sick to death of this discrimination against VC players.

Comp scores are all well and good and have their place, but they shouldn't be decided by your opponent(s). They should be judged by an independant party, not by the person across the table who is holding a huge bunch of sour grapes because you just handed their ass to them.. :rolleyes:
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
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#13
If playing under comp, ie players subjective comp it will always be like this. Lets face it, the WH community is filled with crybabies and they will always cry the loudest and get their way, somehow. I would never play in a player subjective comp score envoirment, too many people are petty and poor losers. Losing a tournament because some little baby couldnt take losing takes the fun right out of it and in return makes everyone dishonest(cause no doubt said crybabies will blame comp score as well). Too often these 'babies' are the same people who play 'tactical' armies... or are just plain arrogant self-proclaimed tactical geniuses or warhammer guru's.

I just say no, no way I am playing in such an evoirment. Fixed set of comp score bases on a sheet where the comp is decided before the tournament(like WPS for example), or set restrictions is what I perfer... that being said I am extremely unlikely to ever player in the ETCs sheet. I think it is a load of bollocks, it is however based for team play not 1 vs 1 so you have to that into account.

N.I.B : Have you modified the ETC abit? I thought it was 2000 for DoC and VC, 2250 and 2500 for the rest. I am aware this was the team version that I saw. Just wondering cause I might have seen an outdated version of it... and perhaps I am being unnecessarily harsh about it.

As for myself, I no longer have any interest for VC. If they decide to being back the old bloodline style feel of the book I might feel inclinded to return. I did try though, to keep the interest with VC up but in the end it didnt do it for me, a shame really. Me leaving VC behind has nothing to do with them being powerful or not. Should be made obvious by the fact I play DoC now instead(along with Dwarfs!).

Danceman.
 

Bug16

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Aug 30, 2007
Messages
1,166
#14
darknesseternal said:
And have you played the new DE?? I'm used to always facing a ton of shooting from them, at least, at the very least 50+ bolts a turn, but now I also get multiple assassins popping out of units, and a lovely Hydra to try to deal with, let alone take out.
I still think that the new DE's are reasonably balanced as well as fluffy.

They were pathetically weak for years but we DE players slogged on with them and really learned how to play the army to win. Now they're up to scratch our opponents are having to work a lot harder against us.

With VC, the only questionable items, imo, are the Drakenhof Banner and the HoC. Don't field those two items. If people still whine then they need to learn to play better. VC haven't changed radically since their initial inception as VC (5th edition).
 

Vall

Skeleton
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
61
#15
I really don't get where people are coming from when the claim that the vampire counts are overpowered. In my opinion things are the other way around.

Our troops just downright suck. Skeletons are our basic infantry, but have pathetic initiative and weapon skill, meaning most of them are dead before they get to fight. Their points cost is rather steep in my opinion.

Zombies are just downright pathetic. I can't see why anyone would spend points on a unit since their only real purpose I can see is to trap enemy units, but you can do this with a spell and not waste points on them.

Vampire lords and heroes took a significant hit with the loss of the bloodlines. Nobody would dare mess with a WS10 blood dragon in close combat, but now our lords are much weaker, which means the army is weaker as without your general, you are destined to lose.

Huh? Your units can march without being within 6' of a vampire? Damn that sounds cool. Wish my guys could do that.

Wait a second, you mean your guys have bows? And even cannons!?

In summary, our units are quite weak, and must rely on numbers, but they cost a fair amount which forces us to use magic to strengthen the ranks. Difficult to do if your opponent locks you down magically. Our leaders are not all powerful, though they still pack a punch, and our army is slow, and has zero ranged firepower.
 
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
1
#16
All fairly true, but all our units casue Fear, which is one of the most underrated weapons in the game, we can resurrect fallen troopers, and even bolster units above their starting levels for a few power dice. If your opponents are "locking you down" in the magic phase, then they will be spending most of their points on wizards or defensive magic items and probably have little in the way of combat specialists. Get in there with your vampires and wights and kill the wizards, thus leaving you free to utilise your troops to their advantages:- large hordes of fear-causing monstrosities that never run away.
Seize the night, as our motto says.
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
784
#17
Bug16 said:
darknesseternal said:
And have you played the new DE?? I'm used to always facing a ton of shooting from them, at least, at the very least 50+ bolts a turn, but now I also get multiple assassins popping out of units, and a lovely Hydra to try to deal with, let alone take out.
I still think that the new DE's are reasonably balanced as well as fluffy.

With VC, the only questionable items, imo, are the Drakenhof Banner and the HoC. Don't field those two items.
Well it goes both ways though Bug. I think the DE have some of their own questionable items, such as that pendant thing that gives the bearer a ward save equal to the strength of the attack against it ie. strength 5 attack from a Vamp, Dreadlord has to roll a 6 to fail it's ward save. I've seen some very nasty combos including the pendant on a Dreadlord mounted on a Manticore before that has made it very hard to kill. Got there eventually in the end, it took finally getting it to break from combat after several turns and running it down.

Drakenhof and the HoC are no more nasty than what you have available to you in the DE list.
 

MasterSpark

Nostalgian
Staff member
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Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
4,691
#18
darknesseternal said:
I think the DE have some of their own questionable items...
Along the pendant of Khaeleth, don't forget the awesome power that the black amulet holds. Just last night, my wight king and my vampire lord managed to banish themselves when they tried to attack a high sorceress wearing it. That item is nasty... but avoidable, thankfully. Just too bad that my hunger for glory and killing the enemy general proved too strong for me to resist! :grin:
 
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
50
#19
I’m pretty new to VC’s, but I’ve been fighting against them for years!

I don’t agree with the over powered camp. They are one of the stronger army lists for sure, but not broken by any means. The last army book was seen as over powered, mainly because of the Blood Dragons, but then people learnt how to beat it and its quickly became one of the weaker armies. VC's desperately needed a new army book. I’m not sure the same will happen with this list though.

Undead are a difficult army for GW to get right. It’s an extreme army like Wood Elves, and Bretonians. Like these armies it’s hard to make them competitive, and balanced. Wood Elves are really almost a 40K army and when they first turned up every one struggled with a near all skirmish army, with some big monster and lots of fear. It took me 3 games with my Dwarfs to go from draw, a loss to crushing win, to crushing win and now no woodies will fight my army.

The VC’s are a bit like this. I’ve beaten them and drawn with them allot with my dwarfs, and have suffered no loses against the new book using Dwarfs, but I doubt my Orcs and Gobbos would last 3 turns. The problem is I have to take a very specialist Dwarf army to face them, with lots and lots of anti-fear magic items to stand a hope. My normal turn up and play Dwarf army, would lose every time.

And that’s the problem, the VC’s rely on psychology to do their damage, while not suffering any of the psychology issues of a “living” army, e.g. panic, moral et al. A VC army can be relied on to stay in place and fight to the last. The problem is if you can ignore or negate fear, then the VC army struggled badly in the last army book. It had very average magic, and except for a tooled up Blood Dragon, few combat units worth the name. With the new army book GW realised people aren’t stupid, and made sure VC could win games without relying on fear. This makes them very powerful, especially to low leadership armies or armies that have few or no units to negate fear (Orcs and Goblins realllllly struggle facing VC lists). And even if you can sink in lots of points to stop the very powerful effects of fear, you still need plenty of combat troops able to not rout normally when facing Blood Knights or a tooled up VC lord. And let’s not forget the magic boost the VC got as well! Against the old list I would expect to stop 100% of all VC magic, except for irresistible force, now I have to select what to stop and what not to.

The much needed power boost to the list has left allot of people, who were used to easily slapping down VC’s, facing a monstrous list, and they don’t like it. The VC list is very good, but I think Mortal and Daemons of Chaos aren’t bad either! I don’t see VC becoming a middling army like Woodies, who are a bit of one trick pony, as VC compete in combat, magic and movement phases very well and psychology they dominate against all except Khemri and Daemons. People will learn how out to fight VC much better the more they play them and the tag will disappear about being over powered with Skaven or Lizzies etc, all new armies get it! But for GT’s et al, VC will remain very strong, as few all comers armies will be equipped to deal with fear and the magic and the combat strength of VC’s.
 

N.I.B

Master Necromancer
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#20
Danceman said:
N.I.B : Have you modified the ETC abit? I thought it was 2000 for DoC and VC, 2250 and 2500 for the rest. I am aware this was the team version that I saw.
I was told it would be 2050 for VC and DoC in Sweden. But I don't think it's set in stone yet.
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
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Aug 19, 2007
Messages
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#21
N.I.B. said:
Danceman said:
N.I.B : Have you modified the ETC abit? I thought it was 2000 for DoC and VC, 2250 and 2500 for the rest. I am aware this was the team version that I saw.
I was told it would be 2050 for VC and DoC in Sweden. But I don't think it's set in stone yet.
Ah. would you mind PMing me the final version, or atleast for this tournament. Or maybe even make a stickied thread in the army list forum with various tourament restrictions(just a thought), or perhaps just a discussion thread.

Danceman.
 

N.I.B

Master Necromancer
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#22
It'll be ETC with some modifications.

ETC:
Restrictions on the composition of the army

Army restriction
No army can be doubled, no SOC allowed.

Army size: 2000/2250/2500 points (depending on category, see below) with open rosters, so everyone can see everything.

General composition rules

- Armies are 2000/2250/2500 points.
- No characters that are: special, named or Albion
- No DoW or RoR in non DoW armies .

- Rare choices may not be repeated, except for HE, where they can be repeated once for each choice.
- Max. 2 of the same Special choice.
- Max. 3 of the same Core choice, except ranked infantry without missile weapons.
- Max. 10 PD/10DD in an army *
- Max. 3 units of fliers, flying characters included.
- Max. 3 units of core shooters with a range of 20”+ (units of 5 models or less do not count).
- Max. 5 warmachines.

*Magic description
You can use a maximum of 10 power dice in each magic phase. Each bound spell you use count as 1 power dice, all following bound spells used in the same turn counts as 2 power dice.

Every ability/item that adds +1 to cast rolls counts as one power dice in each magic phase. Every ability/item that adds +1 to dispel rolls counts as one dispel dice in each magic phase. Every ability that grants the bearer complete knowledge of a single lore or allows bearer to select spells without rolling counts as one power dice in each magic phase

All dice you would not normally generate, such as 2 gen Slann free dice, Skaven warpstones, night goblin mushrooms, power of darkness etc., also count in the total number of dice you can use in a magic phase.

Tomb Kings count each dice they use for a spell as 1 power dice and casket of souls counts as 2 dice total. They can not chose not to use all the dice when casting an incantation, for example a Liche Priest can’t choose only to use 1 dice on a spell. You can how ever choose not to cast a spell with a model. The 2 basic power dice all armies get only counts if they are used to dispel RIP spells with.

Max 10 dispel dice per army. First dispel scroll (and similar working items) you have in your army counts as 1 dispel dice, in EACH magic phase. The second and all other scrolls, counts as 2 dispel dice in each magic phase. So if you have 3 scrolls you can use a maximum of 5 dispel dice each magic phase. Dice from magic resistance does count in this maximum.

Dice removed by the Chaos Dwarf Chalice of Darkness count as dice used. You remove 3 power dice, you can use only 7 more in your magic phase.

Race specific:
- Max 3 ratling guns.
- Max 3 units of chariots (characters on chariots included).
- Max 6 goblin fanatics.
- Treeman ancient counts as Treeman.
- Ring of Hotek counts as 3 dispel dice each phase.
- Every dark elf assassin after the first counts as a hero choice.
- Dark elf shades limited in unit size to 5-10 models.
- The Drakenhoff banner counts as an additional hero choice.
- The Helm of Commandment counts as an additional hero choice.
- All greater daemons (minus the great unclean one) take an additional hero choice.
- Herald BSB may take either demonic gifts or a daemonic icon, not both.
- Herald of Khorne with 0+ save takes an additional hero slot
- Master of sorcery is limited 0-1
- Siren Song is limited 0-1
- Horrors are limited to 0-2.
- Steam Tank counts as two warmachines.

The ladder system:
All armies are divided into three categories; A, B and C. Category A armies are limited to 2000pts, B to 2250pts and C to 2500pts.
When calculating victory points at the end of the game, once you have the result, then add 10% to any category A army's losses (e.g. 1234 would become 1234+123,4=1357) rounding off as normal. Any category C army would conversely have its losses reduced by 10% (e.g. 567 would become 567-56,7=510).

Category A (2000pts)
Demons of Chaos
Vampires

Category B (2250pts)
Bretonnia
Chaos Dwarfs
Dark Elves
Dwarfs
Empire
High Elves
Warriors of Chaos
Lizardmen
Skaven
Tomb Kings
Wood Elves

Category C (2500pts)
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs & Goblins
Dogs of War
Beasts of Chaos
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
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Messages
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#23
Interesting, my DoC list does not violate any of the restrictions but needs to be cut down to 2000, or in your case 2050, right. My current dwarf list doesnt break any restrictions either. Fun times :)

Danceman.
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
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#25
Very true, bound spells costing an additional PD than normal if used twice in a row is silly. However, all the more reason to field Necros with 2 power stones instead is order to be able to fire off that crusial vanhels... but then again you'll be using up PDs for the rest of your magic phase. Then again other armies will be restricted to a lesser magic phase as well. But in a nutshell, VC dont have easy in this one. There is however a big BUT, Coupled with having up to 500 points less than the opponent it goes too far, a fixed 250 extra points I could have accepted but really, where is the joy in beating an army if it isnt at equal points?

I am still very sceptical to the ETC sheet I see above. It will be interesting to see what you guys in the north come up with.
 
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