• Roll-up! Roll-up! Come one and all the fantastic Turning the World to Darkness painting competition. Welcome to any skill level, you can find out more here.
  • It's time once again to ferret out those murderous vampires in a new VAU - Vampires Amongst Us. A cross between Cluedo and a roleplay, sometimes gory and often hilarious! Find out more here.

First impressions of the Undead Legion

HERO

Wight King
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
434
#51
Exact quote from the book: "Choosing an Army: This section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer. Just as the lore of Undeath is available to any wizard, all armies use these rules for choosing an army."

It then goes on to lay out all the rules for choosing an army. It covers everything including taking a General, the Minimum Three Units rule, and Unit Categories, including that Lord and Hero categories are both up to 50% now.

Pretty clear that these are the rules now. (ie: official)
But where is the quote that says Undead Legions can be used in regular games of Warhammer?
 
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
35
#52
The chosing an army section is Page 21. Kind of a late place to for them to be announcing these over rule the rule book at all times... Which it still doesn't say out right. Page three, the introduction is still very vague and to be honest still suggests it's exclusive to this story naritive"a new army list allows you to field combined armies of the undead, and new rules represent the shape of armies abroad in these dark times". The book even refers to its self as "Warhammer: Nagash" not warhammer. Page 4 "How to use this book" is the closest it comes to a difinitive answer "this book is intended to be a companion volume of warhammer:nagash" so all the rules of book 2 are just a companion book for book 1 allowing you to play out the changing battles of this very specific time. The most key part is the constant reference to "This section of warhammer:nagash describes..."
So for 20 pages the book as specifically explained these rules are made to reflect the epic change in the world.
I'm sorry but if I have the wrong end of the stick this book is written very poorly. How hard is it to state to this book is intended to overrides the rule book for all warhammer games played?
I feel like a git hounding on about, but even the FAQs are very clear about how they make changes to the rule book and what their purpose are, this rule book reads like a supplement campaign and even refers to it being a campaign.
 

Banat

Varghulf
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
791
#53
I would be inclined to go with Michael. Michael's point is based on time. The End Times is a period when there are more heroes due to the epic struggle etc etc. It would not make sense if you were playing a campaign say, during the time of the Three Emperors, to use 50% Lords/Heroes, because those wouldn't be armies of the End Times. Flaming Skull's point just verifies that whilst the release was a book all about Undead and Nagash, those particular rules apply to all races.
 

Von Calyptra

Black Knight
Joined
Mar 3, 2011
Messages
382
#54
I think End Times games need to be established beforehand. If you surprise a player with an End Times army when they were expecting a regular game of Warhammer, you are denying them the 50% lords/heroes and access to Lore of Undeath that they otherwise would have access to.
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,091
#55
I think it's fair to expect your opponent to have a hard copy of the rules. If someone expects me to go with a FAQ ruling, they'd better have a copy of that FAQ for me to view, and if I want to query a rule in their army book, I'd like to be able to see it.

And if someone wants to use the new 50% Lords/Heroes allowance, I want them to be able to show me, in print, where it allows them to do that.

And I don't think it's fair for people to have to pay $150 for an addition to the rules, just to increase their Hero and Lord allowance. I feel like if their intention was to do that, that it would be plainly spelled out in a White Dwarf article and on their website, that ALL armies may now take 50% Lords or Heroes. I feel like if their intent was to change the fundamental way the game is played that they would have made it extremely clear.
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
1,315
#56
I think it's fair to expect your opponent to have a hard copy of the rules. If someone expects me to go with a FAQ ruling, they'd better have a copy of that FAQ for me to view, and if I want to query a rule in their army book, I'd like to be able to see it.

And if someone wants to use the new 50% Lords/Heroes allowance, I want them to be able to show me, in print, where it allows them to do that.

And I don't think it's fair for people to have to pay $150 for an addition to the rules, just to increase their Hero and Lord allowance. I feel like if their intention was to do that, that it would be plainly spelled out in a White Dwarf article and on their website, that ALL armies may now take 50% Lords or Heroes. I feel like if their intent was to change the fundamental way the game is played that they would have made it extremely clear.
They DID put that in WD. It's on page 13 of Issue 30 (Nagash announcement): "The Nagash book enhances your games by adding the new Lore of Undeath and altering the number of heroes you can have in your army... Any wizard can use this power for themselves to summon undead creatures... Your army can include more Lords than ever before (not counting 6th ed I guess), up to 50% of your army."
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,156
#57
Moving aside from the thorny, murky, and arguably pointless legitimacy debate, here's a very interesting question that cropped up on a tomb kings forum I lurk:

Can a vampire character on a coven throne join a unit of tomb kings skeleton chariots? If so, that may open up some interesting and likely completely unintended possibilities.
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
1,315
#58
Moving aside from the thorny, murky, and arguably pointless legitimacy debate, here's a very interesting question that cropped up on a tomb kings forum I lurk:

Can a vampire character on a coven throne join a unit of tomb kings skeleton chariots? If so, that may open up some interesting and likely completely unintended possibilities.
That sounds awesome. On that same token, could a Necromancer on a Corpse Cart do the same thing?
 

Banat

Varghulf
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
791
#59
Wow... Chariot bus sounds awesome with the coven throne... I doubt the CC would be viable though, it would slow the unit down to 4" movement and chariots cannot march.
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
1,315
#60
Wow... Chariot bus sounds awesome with the coven throne... I doubt the CC would be viable though, it would slow the unit down to 4" movement and chariots cannot march.
That makes sense. But I could still run two CTs with the new Character allowance...
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2013
Messages
927
#61
Tried to write a few lists with the UL armylist and I'm actually struggling to get a list that I like. Main problem is that there are just too many options that I want to take. I'm also struggling with whether I'd rather do a VC-style core of infantry anvils or a TK-style core of redirectors, chariots, and chaff-clearing archers.

There's also the interesting opportunity to take a fully-mounted army. Necroknights, chariots, core light cavalry, special BK heavy cavalry. Very interesting.

Another funny thing is how much the "collective wisdom" that I've just tacitly accepted seems to clash as you switch between armies. TK skeleton horsemen are considered a useless choice, but they're essentially just VC direwolves with fast cav and extra attacks (from mounts). Horse Archers are considered a superior option, but they don't get you a dead-drop benefit. TK generals also scoff at the benefit of light armour, preferring more bodies, but I've been quite enjoying the benefits of 5+6++ on my VC skittles for a while now.

I think there are a lot of interesting possibilities for armies out of the combined unit list, and it may take a while for people to free themselves of the shackles of army-specific wisdom and build something that is uniquely UL.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,156
#62
I've tried making a couple lists myself, and yeah, it is very difficult to narrow down on what exactly you want to take.
 

Von Calyptra

Black Knight
Joined
Mar 3, 2011
Messages
382
#64
TK skeleton horsemen are considered a useless choice, but they're essentially just VC direwolves with fast cav and extra attacks (from mounts).
Interesting thought. Dire Wolves are faster and 4 points cheaper though, which is significant enough that I think that Dire Wolves are just outright better as redirectors. Also, I don't think Skeleton Horsemen are fast cav. But that does change how I see them in the context of Tomb Kings.


I think there are a lot of interesting possibilities for armies out of the combined unit list, and it may take a while for people to free themselves of the shackles of army-specific wisdom and build something that is uniquely UL.
Yeah, I'm very interested in seeing the Undead Legion become its own thing. In the future, assuming the world doesn't actually end, I'd like to see the Vampires and Tomb Kings both escape the domination of Nagash, but the Undead Legion stick around as a third army, containing some VC units, some TK units, and some unique units of its own.

In the meantime, I'd start the list with Morghasts, and look for synergies from there. Harbingers are more appealing to me, because I'm not sure the Archai are better enough to justify the rare slot. Add a BSB and you have a bubble of -2 crumble mitigation. If you're playing in a scenario with Undeath Ascendant, that's -3. If you're using animated constructs, they get -4. Does anything else mitigate crumble?
 

Banat

Varghulf
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
791
#65
Ill be using the fifty percent hero allowance to spam some tomb princes and necrotects i imagine. at least Will be trying that list.
 
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
442
#66
But where is the quote that says Undead Legions can be used in regular games of Warhammer?
I don't have the Storm of Magic book, so I could be mistaken, but I believe it explicitly says that the SoM rules are optional and should be agreed upon before the battle with your opponent. There's no such clause in the Nagash book. It has rules in it. Period. If it doesn't specify that they are not official, then they are.

Page 4 "How to use this book" is the closest it comes to a difinitive answer "this book is intended to be a companion volume of warhammer:nagash" so all the rules of book 2 are just a companion book for book 1 allowing you to play out the changing battles of this very specific time. The most key part is the constant reference to "This section of warhammer:nagash describes..."
And if we really want to get into semantics of who says what is allowed when and where, the How to Use This Book page ends with the words:

"Along with all of the other sections of this book, it is intended for use both with the scenarios presented herein, and in any other games of Warhammer you would like to use it for. As you can see, this book represents much more than just a selection of scenarios and special rules to go with them. Instead you should think of it as a toolbox, from which you can pick and choose what to use in any games of Warhammer that you play. This is highly appropriate; as a result of Nagash's return, neither the Warhammer world, or the Warhammer battles that you fight, will ever be the same again!"

(Emphasis is mine. Just pointing out that it does state in print that this is for everything.)

Can a vampire character on a coven throne join a unit of tomb kings skeleton chariots? If so, that may open up some interesting and likely completely unintended possibilities.
The basic rules prevent characters riding monsters or chariots from joining another unit, so I don't think so. I don't have the TK book, but I'd assume the Tomb King/Prince characters on chariots have a special rule that specifically allows them to join Skeleton Chariot units. There's no such rule for Vampires or Necromancers on Coven Thrones and Corpse Carts.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,156
#67
The other way around. Tomb Kings skeleton chariots have a rule that allows them to be joined by characters on chariots.

Characters in a Tomb Kings army that have a chariot (including Settra the Imperishable's Chariot of the Gods) can join a unit of Skeleton Chariots. They can remain with the unit even if their mount is destroyed but, if they subsequently leave the unit whilst on foot, they will not be able to rejoin it, or join another unit of Skeleton Chariots.
A coven throne is a chariot unit type, so does a vampire riding one 'have a chariot'? Seems like yes. There is some question on the 'Characters in a Tomb Kings army' bit, since Undead Legion doesn't specifically say to replace 'Tomb Kings army' with 'Undead Legions army' the way it does for Nehekharan Undead and Undead respectively, but if you say it doesn't work on those grounds, then you're also effectively preventing Tomb Kings and Tomb Princes on chariots from joining units of Skeleton Chariots in Undead Legion armies as well, so that clearly isn't a functional interpretation.

My inclination is to say it's valid, though I wouldn't try it myself, partially for fear of causing an argument at the table, and partially because I think the throne/engine model is just too big for a regular chariot base and mount mine on large monster bases instead, which more or less kills the idea.


Anyway, I've submitted a querry to the official FAQ email, and received the standard robo response. I doubt any humans actually read those things, but if they do, and if we're lucky enough to get an Undead Legions FAQ, then maybe the question will get some official clarification.
 
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
442
#68
The other way around. Tomb Kings skeleton chariots have a rule that allows them to be joined by characters on chariots.
I guess it depends on which model has the rule allowing it--

If the TK or TP character had the rule that allowed them to join, then only they could join the chariot units.

Since the chariot units have the rule (Is it called "And the Tomb kings rode to war?") then it depends how it is worded. If the rule says "Tomb Kings or Tomb Princes mounted on a chariot may join this unit," then only those characters can do it. If it says "characters" mounted on a chariot can join this unit, then anyone can do it, including someone mounted on a Coven Throne or Corpse Cart.

Only the army rules have been updated for the Undead Legions list. The special rules in the profiles of individual units and characters still apply.
 

HERO

Wight King
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
434
#70
I don't have the Storm of Magic book, so I could be mistaken, but I believe it explicitly says that the SoM rules are optional and should be agreed upon before the battle with your opponent. There's no such clause in the Nagash book. It has rules in it. Period. If it doesn't specify that they are not official, then they are.
No, that's not true. When they do include rules that you can immediately incorporate into regular games of Warhammer 40K or Fantasy, they release it in the way of a Battlescroll/Dataslate.

GW SPECIFICALLY says in those WD scrolls that you can use them in regular games.
Example:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-v-C-RWlMU1I/UydOErr0k8I/AAAAAAAAC9A/bkhz4XkLkP0/s1600/ExFlameroolz.JPG

There is nothing as black and white in the current Nagash book.
 
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
442
#72
No, that's not true. When they do include rules that you can immediately incorporate into regular games of Warhammer 40K or Fantasy, they release it in the way of a Battlescroll/Dataslate.

GW SPECIFICALLY says in those WD scrolls that you can use them in regular games.
Example:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-v-C-RWlMU1I/UydOErr0k8I/AAAAAAAAC9A/bkhz4XkLkP0/s1600/ExFlameroolz.JPG

There is nothing as black and white in the current Nagash book.
Well I read the page you linked to and it doesn't state anywhere that you can use those rules in regular games of Warhammer or 40K. Nor does it indicate that you do not need your opponent's consent. What I'm saying is that there's no difference in how the rules are presented there and in the Nagash book, so I don't know why you'd make the argument that one is official and one is not.

They both simply present "rules for your games of Warhammer," and make no note that they are optional or need to be agreed upon before hand. (I'd even argue that the Nagash book is more clear because it does, in fact, contain phrases like "any army" and "any game," in bold print even.) Also, it's a Warhammer book.

I'll ask this: Is Storm of Magic "official?" Can I write my army list using those rules and magic items and go jump in a pickup game at a shop?
 

HERO

Wight King
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
434
#73
Look under Army List Entries, top of the page on the left. Read that paragraph.

Why doesn't the Nagash book say anything like this?
 
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
442
#74
Look under Army List Entries, top of the page on the left. Read that paragraph.

Why doesn't the Nagash book say anything like this?
I don't see anything about "regular games" in that paragraph. The Nagash book does say that the rules within are for use in any game. Several times. It presents itself very clearly as 'New rules for Warhammer.' I really don't understand what the debate is.
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
1,315
#75
I don't see anything about "regular games" in that paragraph. The Nagash book does say that the rules within are for use in any game. Several times. It presents itself very clearly as 'New rules for Warhammer.' I really don't understand what the debate is.
So I guess nobody saw my post about it being in WD. Well, here is a pic...
 
Top