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First impressions of the Undead Legion

HERO

Wight King
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
434
Thing is about 9th making smaller armies easier. I think it'll be good and here is why. Those players won't be playing in a vacuum. They will get attracted to cool characters and easy to start armies, then get playing with veterans and then will grow their armies organically following what they learn as they play
Bingo!

The only thing 9th Ed. will do is consolidate the armies and give new/existing players a smaller barrier of entry to buy armies.
 

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
True Blood
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Dec 23, 2012
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The other thing I've got to say on this. Warhammer fantasy doesn't have the same issue as 40k when it comes to the "epic" level stuff. Some people have been responding to Nagash, the mortarchs and the 50% lords and heroes like it's escalation. Its not. They aren't putting D Strength weapons in, nor units that can kill three separate units a turn. Although Nagash is a 1000 points (cue dramatic chipmunk meme) aside from the 3x the points and range he can summon, he actually is reasonable and very killable.
 
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Blutsauger

Vampire Count
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Apr 10, 2013
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1,091
I think the main thing is that the utterly broken combinations from 5th edition have been broken up. My old Bretonnian Grail Knights were literally unstoppable in 5th edition. They counter-charged if you charged them, reflected all shooting attacks back at the bearer, were immune to spells, and the lord in combat dished out hits and attacks that wounded on a 2+, and each hit generated a further D6 hits. Not to mention they carried +3 ranks and a standard!

You just can't get combinations like that any more, so while increasing the allowance will probably have unintended consequences with regard to game balance, I don't think it's a return to the bad old days.
 
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
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Ditto. In 5th edition, every character was a badass, even wizards. Talking about Necromancer Lords with WS 7 S & T of 5 or 6, 4 wounds, and 5 attacks!
 

HERO

Wight King
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
434
You just can't get combinations like that any more, so while increasing the allowance will probably have unintended consequences with regard to game balance, I don't think it's a return to the bad old days.
While there's a lot of awesome TK and VC synergy, I wouldn't say there's anything completely over the top unstoppable.

Do any of you guys see something I don't? <--- serious question to spark strategy discussion
 
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Messages
162
@HERO,

There is nothing over the top that I can see, but I do love the options it gives. The major problem I see with it involves combining rares. 2x Terror + a casket at 2500 pts is a little bent (actually, it fits at 2400 as well). That's a whole lot of no armor save ranged attacks! Also, either the terrorgheist scream or casket combined with the item that removes BSB and IP and -1 LD, but that item and bloodline are expensive and/or short range so its not as bad as it could be. But doing that means no mortis engines so no 4+ regen constructs, so its not an auto choice which is great.

What I am most excited about is the options it gives. It completely changes the nature both armies and they compliment each other immensely. While VC have IMO one of the more varied army books (there are a few army builds that can be competitive in a variety of tournaments, which is more than the 1 build many other armies have), but with the addition of TK units it's just amazing.

What I am most excited about is skeletal horsemen! Why you ask? Well, I run a blender bus list, as that is what got me into VC and I love cavalry. With the VC alone I have to spend 25% on core (tarpits and chaff that can be useful but do not contribute to the combat potential of my bus), and then spend points from special on BKs....which leaves me with little else to use to flesh out my army after the vampire lord is added.

With undead? Now we can take our cav bus out of CORE! Sure, skeletal horsemen are nowhere near as good as black knights, and are much more fragile, and do not kill nearly as well as BKs, but as they are core, we can take more of them to fill out the bus to protect from cannon balls. Lets be honest, in the bus build, its the characters that contribute CR, not the black knights. taking 2 tanky characters and a unit champ would mean that we can run a character wall bus out of CORE points, put it 3 wide and fill the front rank with characters to deny CR. Then, with the points saved, we can load up on crypt horrors, necroknights, and whatever else we want from the undead book (entombed scorpions, sphinxes, etc). Instead of core that is there just to hold up, we can add special and rare units that can actually kill things!

Its a very exciting proposition for me!

Has anyone thought of how it contributes to other builds we already have? Or has anyone thought of new builds that the combination provides? I see people talking that the GG star has come back, and that is amazing as well, but nowhere near as powerful as it was when 8th first came out due to Monst cav (which is a good thing! A balanced game is a fun game).
 

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
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That core cavalry is healed like black knight too (1+wizard level). Really good idea running them as your Blender delivery device.

Another thing that is interesting, I don't think we can easily theory hammer what Morghasts are capable of. They move as hover (so no need to stay near general), they heal as normal Monstrous Infantry (like Crypt Horrors). They can be summoned with the Undeath signature spell if you have at least 1 extra token. They can't replace our normal hammers and anvils, but they are going to be great hunters, tarpits and redirectors that we don't throw away or have to babysit. And it looks like their anti-crumbling power stacks. So there has got to be a way to utilize that.
 

HERO

Wight King
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
434
On the subject of the Casket + Peripat combo that I've been having success with.. (I made this post in Bloodlines, and was suggested to post it here):

Here are the reasons why the Casket is good:

1. It gives you +D3 PD to use per phase, and it doesn't have to be for the casket. No matter how you dice it, there's just not many things in the game that gives you this kind of advantage. In fact, I can't think of one off the top of my head. You want it to boost your normal casting? Go ahead. You want to use the Casket? Sure. You want to feed your Peripat? That's fine too.

2. It gives you a pseudo-shooting option that you will always have.

3. It allows you to remove a key pieces off the map if it goes off. I'm talking about serious key pieces here: The Skullcannon is Ld.7 with 4 wounds, Empire Cannons away from their general are also under threat, Ogre Ironblasters are Ld.7, although 5W will be harder to manage. Most of the other danger pieces only have 3 wounds. Elf RBTs only have 2W are are Ld.8; thus auto-dying on average rolls. Mourfangs in a flanking position are now suddenly threatened big time, so are most low Ld. chaff: Furies, dogs, sabertusks, the list goes on. And it has the potential to bounce.

4. Once your opponent have figured out that this is a dangerous piece on the battlefield, he will throw dice to dispel it. The fact that he has to throw DD at a FREE spell potentially (D3 averages 2 dice free), you will now be ahead in the magic phase. This increases the chances you will have VDM, Desert Wind, or anything else you want to conjur up with your opponents are on a 2-dice deficit. If he fails to dispel and loses concentration, while the probability is low, it's just a shutout.

5. This limits your opponent's movement, deployment and chaff potential. Will he risk bounces and lose large amounts of low. Ld chaff? He will need to deploy tight, or not be very careful of his movements or risk getting blasted off the board.

6. With Peripat and Casket, you're literally +2 PD/DD on your opponent from the beginning of the game. You get 2 from the casket, you decide to bank it, and thus you're up 2 while you negotiate your existing magic phase. This is free advantage on both offense and defense.

7. It's relatively cheap, small and you can keep it out of LoS because it doesn't need it to do its stuff. The effect is Direct Damage. It's also T10 lol, I've had people shoot it with a cannon and call it a waste on a 1,2,3.

For less than 3 Vargheists, this is one of the best purchases in the entire TK book.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
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Do not direct damage spells require line of sight? I'm afb at the moment, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that part at least required LOS. The dice generation doesn't.

also, wouldn't a cannon that hit the casket automatically hit all three crew as well, since they're all on the same 'base'? If not then great, but if so a cannon would still very likely wipe the thing out by killing all its crew.

Still a fantastic, near automatic purchase for any Undead Legions army that likes the magic phase. I plan on eventually modeling one atop a floating platform of black pyramid stone.
 

Banat

Varghulf
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
791
How many points is the casket out of interest? And wouldn't people worry about having to keep a unit in reserve near the casket in case anybody tries to go for it?
 

Blutsauger

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Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,091
Honestly I'm trying
Do not direct damage spells require line of sight? I'm afb at the moment, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that part at least required LOS. The dice generation doesn't.

also, wouldn't a cannon that hit the casket automatically hit all three crew as well, since they're all on the same 'base'? If not then great, but if so a cannon would still very likely wipe the thing out by killing all its crew.

Still a fantastic, near automatic purchase for any Undead Legions army that likes the magic phase. I plan on eventually modeling one atop a floating platform of black pyramid stone.
Direct Damage spells need to be in the forward arc, but don't require line of sight.

I imagine the Casket crew work like any warmachine crew in that they only represent wounds, and all ranged attacks are resolved against the machine itself.
 

HERO

Wight King
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
434
Honestly I'm trying


Direct Damage spells need to be in the forward arc, but don't require line of sight.

I imagine the Casket crew work like any warmachine crew in that they only represent wounds, and all ranged attacks are resolved against the machine itself.
Yes and yes.

It's 3 points cheaper than 3 Vargheists and no, you don't need a unit to babysit it. If you're really worried, put a Spirit Host by it.
 
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
178
On the subject of the Casket + Peripat combo that I've been having success with.. (I made this post in Bloodlines, and was suggested to post it here):

Here are the reasons why the Casket is good:

1. It gives you +D3 PD to use per phase, and it doesn't have to be for the casket. No matter how you dice it, there's just not many things in the game that gives you this kind of advantage. In fact, I can't think of one off the top of my head. You want it to boost your normal casting? Go ahead. You want to use the Casket? Sure. You want to feed your Peripat? That's fine too.

2. It gives you a pseudo-shooting option that you will always have.

3. It allows you to remove a key pieces off the map if it goes off. I'm talking about serious key pieces here: The Skullcannon is Ld.7 with 4 wounds, Empire Cannons away from their general are also under threat, Ogre Ironblasters are Ld.7, although 5W will be harder to manage. Most of the other danger pieces only have 3 wounds. Elf RBTs only have 2W are are Ld.8; thus auto-dying on average rolls. Mourfangs in a flanking position are now suddenly threatened big time, so are most low Ld. chaff: Furies, dogs, sabertusks, the list goes on. And it has the potential to bounce.

4. Once your opponent have figured out that this is a dangerous piece on the battlefield, he will throw dice to dispel it. The fact that he has to throw DD at a FREE spell potentially (D3 averages 2 dice free), you will now be ahead in the magic phase. This increases the chances you will have VDM, Desert Wind, or anything else you want to conjur up with your opponents are on a 2-dice deficit. If he fails to dispel and loses concentration, while the probability is low, it's just a shutout.

5. This limits your opponent's movement, deployment and chaff potential. Will he risk bounces and lose large amounts of low. Ld chaff? He will need to deploy tight, or not be very careful of his movements or risk getting blasted off the board.

6. With Peripat and Casket, you're literally +2 PD/DD on your opponent from the beginning of the game. You get 2 from the casket, you decide to bank it, and thus you're up 2 while you negotiate your existing magic phase. This is free advantage on both offense and defense.

7. It's relatively cheap, small and you can keep it out of LoS because it doesn't need it to do its stuff. The effect is Direct Damage. It's also T10 lol, I've had people shoot it with a cannon and call it a waste on a 1,2,3.

For less than 3 Vargheists, this is one of the best purchases in the entire TK book.
Very good :) I love magic dominant armies... In regards to your "I can't think of a better PD generator," there is one army with reliable 12 dice phases: the Beastmen. I've dominated the magic phase as Beasts against other armies by putting a lvl 4 shaman with death and a 4 lvl 1-2 shamans with beasts/shadows next to shard of the herdstone. Now just imagine what I could do with 50% lords/heroes. I could roll snake eyes and still have 8 or more dice
 

HERO

Wight King
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
434
Very good :) I love magic dominant armies... In regards to your "I can't think of a better PD generator," there is one army with reliable 12 dice phases: the Beastmen. I've dominated the magic phase as Beasts against other armies by putting a lvl 4 shaman with death and a 4 lvl 1-2 shamans with beasts/shadows next to shard of the herdstone. Now just imagine what I could do with 50% lords/heroes. I could roll snake eyes and still have 8 or more dice
I guess, but they're not in line with the current books. Good example though, I almost completely forgot about them.
 
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Messages
178
I guess, but they're not in line with the current books. Good example though, I almost completely forgot about them.
Everyone does lol...

On to the GG star. What if I threw a Tomb King with Destroyer of Eternities in with a couple of WK "bodyguards"? Gives the GG WS 6 killing blow and the TK HKB for the real tough stuff, and the WKs to keep him alive til he needs to go kill?
 

Bullhax

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The casket sounds amazing, very good with our easy access to death magic and Ld debuffs let alone the periapt.! Does anyone know the size of the cask? I have a leftover corpsmaster and the reliquary bit and "cage" from the CT/ME kit that would be an epic count as.!
 

HERO

Wight King
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
434
The casket sounds amazing, very good with our easy access to death magic and Ld debuffs let alone the periapt.! Does anyone know the size of the cask? I have a leftover corpsmaster and the reliquary bit and "cage" from the CT/ME kit that would be an epic count as.!
Your standard 40mm WM base.

On to the GG star. What if I threw a Tomb King with Destroyer of Eternities in with a couple of WK "bodyguards"? Gives the GG WS 6 killing blow and the TK HKB for the real tough stuff, and the WKs to keep him alive til he needs to go kill?
Sounds fine to me. The TK with DoE is just so expensive for very little protection. I would like it more if the King himself wasn't running around almost naked.
 
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
178
@Seneschal Good idea, and I can alway heal him back up with LoV attribute and send out the wight king bodyguards if it's sticky. Would a Tomb Herald and a Wight King be better than two Wight Kings?
 

Seneschal

Liche
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May 15, 2008
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I'd rather take 2 WK's as they are more resilient. While its true that you could use the Herald's ability to save the King and then heal it back, it can be risky since he only has two wounds (as he might get off'ed in combat on the enemy's turn or suffer a similar fate).
 

GDD

Grave Guard
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Messages
200
I am going to post this here too, because I am wondering about your opinion on this.

I am wondering about something I saw @Malisteen talk about on.. I think it was warseer? (And I think it was Malisteen :tongue:)
In the undead legions it seems that Rules as Written: Nor TK, or VC characters can join chariot units. Rules as Intended: Characters that can ride chariots can join, meaning Vampires on Coven Thrones, and Necromancers on Corpse Carts could join the unit.

Tomb Kings rode to war: Characters in a TK army that have a chariot can join a unit of skeleton chariots.

The problem comes from the wording in the TK chariot rule, and the fact that in the context of the Undead Legion they are in a different army. (Notice it says ARMY, not armybook.) VS the intent, and how the rest of the undead legions work. We can have TK characters in VC units, and the other way around, and the point of UL seems to be to encourage this kind of synergy in lists.

The only good counter argument seems to be that the book lists units as belonging to TK, VC, N, etc. Now if I could run a Coven Throne in chariot core... I'd do it every game just because of how damn awesome it would be.

Arguing that a Throne could join seems just as plausible that it couldn't...
 
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