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Forbidden Lore Tactics

Yanda

Black Knight
Joined
Mar 7, 2010
Messages
376
#1
Which lores are good, which lores are bad. When to use them? a quick look at lores

Fire - Lots of ranged Fire spells, and a melee self buff spell, this lore gives our army lots of shooting this could help makeup for our lack of shooting and is nice against units that are flammable or have regenerate.

Metal - 2 Spells that hit based on the enemy's armor save, comes with some utility spells, one that stalls war machines. This lore is good against heavily armored teams and cavalry.

Shadow - Comes with a movement spell like VDM, a fly spell that can be used to get characters out of combat and Pit of shades. This lore would be good against any army.

Beasts - Has a good Character buff spell and 2 decent Missle spells. Whats good about this lore is The Wolfs Hunt which is like VDM but ir moves 2d6. The lore is decent but I feel there are better choices.

Heavens - 2 Missle Spells, some utility spells one of them gives you a few re-rolls for that turn. Comet of Cassandra can be very strong but I feel like the enemy can just move away from it or dispel it on the 2nd turn ect.

Light - 2 Utility spells that dont work with undead. Dazzling brightness can be cast to reduce enemies to WS 1 for a phase, 1 Missle Spell and 1 AOE spell. Does Extra Damage to undead, would be a great lore choice against TK or other VC armies.

Death - 2 Magic Missles, Drain Life (steal a wound no saves) and an AOE damage spell. Doom and Darkness is a spell that gives -3 LD for a turn and forcing them to make a LD test (at -3) or continue to keep it each turn. This spell can work great with the help of Banshee Scream. The 2 combined could kill off pesky large monsters with higher leadership. I really like this lore, fluff wise it makes sense and it seems every spell in the lore aids our weaknesses

my top 3
1. Death
2. Shadow
3. Fire
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,916
#2
Yanda said:
Which lores are good, which lores are bad. When to use them? a quick look at lores

Fire - Lots of ranged Fire spells, and a melee self buff spell, this lore gives our army lots of shooting this could help makeup for our lack of shooting and is nice against units that are flammable or have regenerate.
I'm a bit "meh" when it comes to this lore. Yes it has some ok damage dealing spells and the FSoR is very nice if you can't get it off (which any sane opponent wouldn't let you on a vampire).

Metal - 2 Spells that hit based on the enemy's armor save, comes with some utility spells, one that stalls war machines. This lore is good against heavily armored teams and cavalry.
One of the better lores for me. Some nice utilities and against the enemy elite (most of which have high armour saves) this can be really good. It also has the only spell which is very effective against STanks.

Shadow - Comes with a movement spell like VDM, a fly spell that can be used to get characters out of combat and Pit of shades. This lore would be good against any army.
A good choice this one. Requires more tactical usage but with movement spells and the Pit of Shades being a very good spell, a decent choice.

Beasts - Has a good Character buff spell and 2 decent Missle spells. Whats good about this lore is The Wolfs Hunt which is like VDM but ir moves 2d6. The lore is decent but I feel there are better choices.
I think this one can be a viable choice. Again requires more tactical use, but for example The Beast Cowers can really screw up some armies.

Heavens - 2 Missle Spells, some utility spells one of them gives you a few re-rolls for that turn. Comet of Cassandra can be very strong but I feel like the enemy can just move away from it or dispel it on the 2nd turn ect.
I think this one can be a good choice when facing ranged armies. The unlimted range on its offensive spells combined with high strength but low number of hits makes them good to take out warmachine crew. It also has a shield and re-rolls are always nice.

Light - 2 Utility spells that dont work with undead. Dazzling brightness can be cast to reduce enemies to WS 1 for a phase, 1 Missle Spell and 1 AOE spell. Does Extra Damage to undead, would be a great lore choice against TK or other VC armies.
A pretty poor lore for me, especially when looking at else we have on offer. Those spells are more powerful against DoC as well, so a possibility when facing them. Personally though I would go for a different lore.

Death - 2 Magic Missles, Drain Life (steal a wound no saves) and an AOE damage spell. Doom and Darkness is a spell that gives -3 LD for a turn and forcing them to make a LD test (at -3) or continue to keep it each turn. This spell can work great with the help of Banshee Scream. The 2 combined could kill off pesky large monsters with higher leadership. I really like this lore, fluff wise it makes sense and it seems every spell in the lore aids our weaknesses
A great lore with decent damage spells. D&D does not work with the Banshee's scream, as it specifies it affects Ld based tests. the Banshee's scream is a Ld based attack which whilst similar is not the same.

Still it is very effective when it comes to all the fear / terror tests we inflict, so it is still a great lore to choose.
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
True Blood
Joined
Aug 19, 2007
Messages
3,461
#3
Exactly, the Banshee isn't a leadership test. You just use the leadership of that unit when subtracting it from the Banshee's scream attack. The model affected by the scream is not itself making a test.

Personally I have a soft spot for Beasts and Metal. One for the faster armies with low saves which tend to rely on cavalry, monsters and movement. The other for the heavy metal crowd.
 
Joined
Dec 5, 2008
Messages
288
#5
Booo!! Boo I say.. ruining all my evil anti-hydra plans.
You could take shadows and 'pit' it, it's initiative 2 makes it pretty vulnerable to that. I for one almost always take shadows, Steed of Shadows is awesome at throwing your vampires in the right combat, Unseen Lurker is an improved version of VHDM, and Pit of Shades and Creeping Death are useful for dealing with some threaths Vampires tend to struggle to kill, monsters and heavy cavalery.
 

Yanda

Black Knight
Joined
Mar 7, 2010
Messages
376
#6
Tamodan Varison said:
Booo!! Boo I say.. ruining all my evil anti-hydra plans.
You could take shadows and 'pit' it, it's initiative 2 makes it pretty vulnerable to that. I for one almost always take shadows, Steed of Shadows is awesome at throwing your vampires in the right combat, Unseen Lurker is an improved version of VHDM, and Pit of Shades and Creeping Death are useful for dealing with some threaths Vampires tend to struggle to kill, monsters and heavy cavalery.
ya but you need to roll a 4+ to hit it with pit of shades because of the base size
 
Joined
Dec 5, 2008
Messages
288
#7
yeah, but still, a 4+ and 3+ gives you a fairly big chance (33%) of killing the beast in one go. And in my experience it's often not within Ring of Hotek's range, so you have an easy time casting the spell.
 

Trevy the Great

Vampire Progenitor
True Blood
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
8,386
#8
That's a pretty good list, but I have to say that I think many of the spell Lores are largely situational.
For example, Lore of Fire would have a relatively negligible effect on an Orc and Goblin army with 200+ models, because even 2D6 S4 can't kill enough models, however Lore of Death would be awesome because the psychological effects are devastating to their low-leadership. Conversely, that Lore would not deal much damage to a Warriors of Chaos list with the leadership to overcome the psychology and the armor to shrug off the magic missiles of the Lore, however Metal would make a mockery of their knights and footsoldiers.
When approaching a game, choose a Lore to use based on the strengths of the enemy army and the best option you have to counter it. If they have a Dragon that you want to subdue, choose Beasts for that Beast Cowers spell, or if you want to stop enemy units in their tracks because of leadership, choose Shadows or Death.
I often get asked "Which Lore is the best to take," and my answer is always that their simple validity can't be quantified based on their spells alone. The situation that the spells are to be used in must be taken into account as well.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,916
#9
For some reason I can imagine Vekky stroking a thin Chinese moustache when giving out the above sage advice xD

It is however bloody good advice, as it is all well and good staying take metal against the Empire, but if said Empire player has decided to go for craploads of infantry instead of knights or warmachines then it is a waste.

The good thing is that Forbidden Lore allows you to choose at the start of the battle, so you can choose the one that is most hopefully relevant to your situation.
 
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
85
#10
So then, out of curiosity, why not make a list that suggests the top lores against specific opponents? Instead of simply listing the top lores? I know I would be interested in seeing what you guys think!

-- Ravenfeld :grave:
 

Kalandros

Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Nov 27, 2008
Messages
835
#11
8th edition is coming around, Lores are all being rewritten, so wait for changes before writing anything that will be outdated in 2 months.
 
Joined
Jun 10, 2009
Messages
168
#12
That may be so but I'm probably not updating - It's a cheap shot to make people buy more stuff. The worst thing is I'm not even disappointed in GW anymore... I'm comiong to expect it, they're like the wargame version of Microsoft...
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
220
#13
I really, really, really like Lore of Fire on my lord. A bunch of ranged spells to deal with annoying light skirmishers/fliers etc., and Flaming Sword of Rhuin + Red Fury is the perfect recipe for destruction :konrad:

Also its a way to revive the charm of my old HoC tzeentch warrior mage of destruction ;)
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#15
It's not that tough to get off, between castings of IoN, VHD, etc you just have to have 2 power dice left at the end of your phase and away you go!

One thing I must recommend whenever you take a rulebook Lore with this power is to have a quick read of it and all the spells before you get going- you never know when one of the lesser-known spells that you hadn't even considered might come in handy! For example at the UKGT with my own Red Fury Forbidden Lore Lord, I took Lore of Fire simply to help me blast my enemy's Terradons (who were worth an additional 400 VPs)... then my Lord got stuck in combat with an Ancient Stegadon, and I hadn't considered the Flaming Sword spell at all, until it was too late. Next turn... STAMP, dead Lord.
 

Trevy the Great

Vampire Progenitor
True Blood
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
8,386
#16
That's good advice, Lord Fear. A lot of times those lower casting, weaker spells don't even get considered. The same thing applies to Bear's Anger, which a lot of people get by accident when rolling up Beasts for that elusive Beast Cowers...
The thing with Flaming Sword is that a lot of people don't realize its potential, because it normally requires you to get your frail wizards dangerously close to close combat for it to be of any use, which is why it gets forgotten.
Of course, Vampires are anything but frail...
 
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
85
#17
So I have this combaty Lord I have been engineering to reap destruction on my enemies, he is the stock DreadLance/Redfury/ Dread Knight/ Walking Death Combat Lord you see strutting around, but I was thinking of taking Forbidden lore on him because I find the lore of shadows to be very appealing, then again my force isn't particularly casty to begin with, so maybe I should just keep it simple? Is Lore of Shadows a good choice if I were to take Forbidden? I know you should take your lore based on your enemy, but over all is it a solid choice in an all comers situation?

Thanks,

-- Ravenfeld
 

Ophidicus

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
May 27, 2009
Messages
1,039
#18
Shadow does look like a useful lore, you'll need the Lv3 upgrade for the higher level spells to be reliably cast, of which Unseen Lurker is definitely the most useful (and a very nasty surprise when someone's expecting a paltry 8" Danse Macabre move). Shades of Death is also useful to the Undead as it will make any unit cause Terror.

Best advice is try it out & see how much use you get from it, and whether other lores would give you better results. Remember you're not committed to one lore permanently, you can choose a lore to fit a specific enemy before each game. Fire is probably the all-out attack lore of choice, Flaming Sword of Rhuin on a Vampire Lord is the ultimate can opener, use the Dreadlance on the charge then Flaming Sword in later rounds, or drop Dreadlance altogether, 5 Attacks at S8 always hitting on 2+ with re-rolls!? WITH RED FLIPPIN' FURY!?!?! OWCH!! One of the few man-sized models in the game that can actuallly be relied on to one-shot a Steam Tank... I have to try this now. You're giving me evil ideas...

Edit:
That said, Red Fury, Dreadknight and Forbidden Lore is 110 points & so out of the question, perhaps Flayed Hauberk & Hellsteed...
 
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