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cofius

Skeleton
Sep 20, 2011
69
I had a game against Skaven yesterday, it was the first time thah i faced them and i experienced some nasty spells... i was wondering if someone who knows them well can tell which of their spells can be cast in combat... because i had a feeling that he was casting damage dealing spells in combat and because their book is old :) there is no description on spells that tells which type are they...
 

hairyjeff

Crypt Horror
May 10, 2011
579
Sorry, guys, the Skaven used to do that, but not any more. Only Globadiers can throw into combat on purpose- others may accidentally, but not deliberately. It has taken a lot of the fun out of Skaven, but it's been that way nearly three years now. So, no direct damage spells, artillery, etc, can deliberately target a combat involving it's own troops. But to be honest, Skaven kill themselves so much anyway, it doesn't really make much difference.
 

von Rosentod

Zombie
Apr 4, 2012
48
hairyjeff said:
Sorry, guys, the Skaven used to do that, but not any more. Only Globadiers can throw into combat on purpose- others may accidentally, but not deliberately. It has taken a lot of the fun out of Skaven, but it's been that way nearly three years now. So, no direct damage spells, artillery, etc, can deliberately target a combat involving it's own troops. But to be honest, Skaven kill themselves so much anyway, it doesn't really make much difference.

Combats involving friendly slaves can be targeted. This would then work out as the previous "life is cheap" rule - randomizing any successful hits.
 

Mad 'At

Dumb enough to work
Staff member
True Blood
Apr 2, 2011
2,372
Grödinge
Partly right von Rosentod. The Skaven FaQ modifies that rule so that the randomizing part is gone. You can target stuff in combat with slave naturally with BS weapons and templates hit what they hit.
 

cofius

Skeleton
Sep 20, 2011
69
Can someone tell which of their damage dealing spells can be cast into combat that doesn't involve their slaves?
 

Mad 'At

Dumb enough to work
Staff member
True Blood
Apr 2, 2011
2,372
Grödinge
@Cofius: Well, first I'd like to add that the rule Expendable only says "range attack", which is an unclear term and weather it includes spells can be discussed. Thus it might not make a difference if the target enemy is in combat with slaves or something else.

As far as I know there is no definite way to determine which spells can be cast into combat, but when it comes to damage spell most people play it by stating that spells that dose not specifically say they can be cast into combat cannot be cast into combat, I think that was the principle advised in the edition the spells were written for. An other way to do it is to try and guess what spell type the spell would be in this edition, but sometimes it is not so easy. And of curse magic missiles cannot ever be cast into combat.

If I would give it a go answering your question it would look something like this:
Warp lightning - No!
Scorch - No, very similar to Flame Storm from Lore of Fire, so no
Cracks Call - Difficult, I'd say say yes but I know not everyone dose
Pestilence Breath - Yes, follow instructions
Vermintide - I'd say yes
Cloud of Corruption - Yes, very clearly written
Plague - Yes, clearly written
Curse of the Horned Rat - No, I'd count it as a direct damage spell

Hope this helps
 

bigbadbat

Harbinger of Dandelions
True Blood
Jun 14, 2012
1,240
Minneapolis, MN area
In 8th edition spells are all classified, i.e. hex, augment, magic missle,direct damage. There are restrictions given for each type of spell.
Pre 8th edition books list explicitly how and where a spell can be cast, i.e. "even a unit engaged in close combat" therefore RAW, if in the spells description, it states it can, it may. If not, no. Crack's call is an exception as as it does not target. Just because a spell says "place template anywhere" does not mean it ignores targeting restrictions with regards to combat.
Hope this helps.
 

Ogul

Ghoul
Nov 30, 2011
175
Page 31. in the rulebook says that old book spells will contain any restrictions in them. So if a spell does not state that it cannot be cast into combat, it can, unfortunately.
 

bigbadbat

Harbinger of Dandelions
True Blood
Jun 14, 2012
1,240
Minneapolis, MN area
Not true Ogul, pre 8th edition books, in their spell list will state if they can or can't. (Read my post above.) If language exists on the targeting restriction of one spell in the same book, any other spell in that book must contain similar language, or therefore NOT be allowed to be cast into combat.
Because something doesnt state that it can't doesnt mean that it can.
Thats an endless can of worms with regards to rules pandering.
 

Ogul

Ghoul
Nov 30, 2011
175
Oh, that's a very good point, that must mean my chaos friend cannot cast infernal gateway into combat afterall!
 

Mad 'At

Dumb enough to work
Staff member
True Blood
Apr 2, 2011
2,372
Grödinge
Good point Ogul, however just above that are a few rules that apply to all spells, of any type, unless stated otherwise, one of them reads like this:
Wizards cannot target spells at units engaged in close combat.
I take it that even old spells must follow these rules, unless stated otherwise

But some unclearness still remains because some spells, like Cracks Call, doesn’t have a specific target. In those cases it is very hard to tell how you should play RaW. With Cracks Call it is especially difficult because you don't know how long the line will be, some say that you cannot direct it so that it is possible to hit units in combat. Though there is a new spell, Gaze of Mork from Spells of da Big Waaagh!, which is pretty similar, and it cannot be cast into combat, so maybe Cracks Call should be played the same way...
 

bigbadbat

Harbinger of Dandelions
True Blood
Jun 14, 2012
1,240
Minneapolis, MN area
Dont have Chaos book in front of me, but depending on restrictions stated in other spells in the book, if specific language is not included, or implied for infernal gateway, then no.
 

Mad 'At

Dumb enough to work
Staff member
True Blood
Apr 2, 2011
2,372
Grödinge
Just realised that I'm not sure on how to play Gaze of Mork either, do you roll range before you pick direction of vice versa?...

Gateway cannot be cast into combat, due to reasons stated in my above post.
 

bigbadbat

Harbinger of Dandelions
True Blood
Jun 14, 2012
1,240
Minneapolis, MN area
@Mad'At Pre 8th books, mainly DE and skaven were written with PD cap per level of caster in mind, their spell costs reflect this. (Black Horror 11+?!! , Scorch?!) They werent properly faq'd leaving them obviously op'd and underpriced for 8th. Cracks call is a iffy one at best, and leaves much to i.tdrpretation of rules. Im guessing gaze of Mork contains specific language stating the line may not enter a combat? What about magical vortexes these have a similar "targeting" loophole. You nominate a direction, then roll distance.
 

Mad 'At

Dumb enough to work
Staff member
True Blood
Apr 2, 2011
2,372
Grödinge
Gaze of Mork is a Direct Damage spell so it cannot be cast into combat (Edit: no wait, the target of Direct Damage spells cannot be in combat, but dose GoM really have a target then? The description doesn’t say anything about it.... Fuck GW's unclear rules :swear: )

Vortexes is a good point, but what differs them from pre 8th spells without targets is that is is specifically stated that they don't have targets, so it is clearer that they don't follow normal targeting restrictions. But I don't know, maybe you should treat older spells without targets like "vortexes" in terms of targeting restrictions, then Cracks Call could be cast into combat.
 

bigbadbat

Harbinger of Dandelions
True Blood
Jun 14, 2012
1,240
Minneapolis, MN area
Thats how Ive always played it, as lame as it may be. (Cracks Call)
Im fairly certain direct damage spells may be cast into combat, no BRB handy, correct me please if Im wrong. Theres that little table in the reference section...
 

Mad 'At

Dumb enough to work
Staff member
True Blood
Apr 2, 2011
2,372
Grödinge
Nope, they cannot, but they are allowed to scatter into combat. Wonder if that means you can direct Gaze of Mork so that it might reach a combat...

EDIT: Just to summarize, old spells follow normal targeting restrictions, which are the basic rules on page 31 and any text in the spell description. But some spells don't have targets and thus do not fall under the basic rules. If this is case for new spells the rules for their respective spell type covers it. But if it is an old spell then there is no definite way to play it. Do we agree?
 

Ogul

Ghoul
Nov 30, 2011
175
Some of the chaos spells specifically states that they CAN target units in combat, when other spells doesn't mention in at all, so I assume they can't.
 

Johnny-Crass

Vampire Ancient
True Blood
Jan 25, 2012
6,633
California
Cracks Call and Scorch can both be cast into CC as can Infernal Gateway. They do not have spells types and thus do not fall under the umbrella of their restrictions.

Gateway says "pick a unit" and Scorch says "Place a template" Both of these wordings means that these spells CAN be cast into CC.
 

bigbadbat

Harbinger of Dandelions
True Blood
Jun 14, 2012
1,240
Minneapolis, MN area
Even if other spells from the book include language such as "even a unit in CC"?
Wouldn't these spells also have to include such language for them to ignore that restriction?
 

Chaos_Born

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Jan 17, 2012
2,053
Omnipresent
Umm, the default restrictions for casting spells are these
  • The target must lie within the Wizard's forward arc
  • The Wizard does not need line of sight to his target
  • The target must lie within the spell's range
  • Wizards cannot target spells at units engaged in close combat

The way I see it, old spells must have special wording allowing it to be cast in close combat, not restricting it.
 

Johnny-Crass

Vampire Ancient
True Blood
Jan 25, 2012
6,633
California
7th ed yes. But you need an exclusion in 8th for it not to work. I mean most people will play gateway the otherway just to be a nice guy, but if you want to be RAW IHAVENOFRIENDS then you can legally play it the otherway :perv:
 

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