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Help vs. 3x EotG?

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,171
#1
My regular opponent just started a lizardmen army. He loves the new stegadon model, and plans on his standard 2,000 point army including Lord Mazdamundi (slaan SC on stegadon) and 3 engines of the gods, supplemented mostly by 10 man non-skirmishing skink units to screen & redirect potential threats. At 2250 there will likely be a rare choice stegadon ancient as well.

I'm a little worried. Magically, that's 15 power dice and 10 dispel dice before items, which is more magic power then I'll be able to stop, and more magic defense then I'll be able to power through. In combat that's four charging stegadon ancients, all coldblooded stubborn 9 with a battle standard, so they won't break. That's 3d6 strength 5 hits with no armor save per turn to any of my units that dares approach them

On the up side, there's hardly any army to go with them, just screens to redirect charges from the likes of blood knights. I really haven't played against an enemy so magic & monster heavy and so lacking in units. But with his ability to shut down my magic phase, hammer my small units with lazor beams, and ignore the static res of my big units, I'm not sure exactly what I should be trying to do against him.

My normal army at 2250 contains a static res block of grave guard with legion banner, drakenhoff BSB, and fighty lord; a block of static res skeletons with warbanner, hybrid vamp, and necromancer; a big block of zombies and small block of ghouls to fill out core reqs; wolves, bats, and vargulf for flanking duty / warmachine hunting; and either wraiths or black knights as a hammer, but I have access to just about anything other then heroes on flying mounts and the coach.



I apologize if I should be posting in one of the existing threads that mentions Engines of the Gods, but all of those seemed to be about dealing with one of such in a lizardmen army, not three plus two more stegadons with no army to speak of, which seems like a rather different prospect altogether.
 
Joined
Sep 2, 2008
Messages
196
#2
Remember that the engines are only stubborn on leadership 6. No use of stubborn and use of general's leadership. Still means they pass the vast majority of the time with the BSB nearby.


Malisteen said:
My normal army at 2250 contains a static res block of grave guard ... a block of static res skeletons with warbanner
The two of you are almost playing different games. Except for the Drakenhoff banner, it sounds like you are playing a friendly list while he is doing a GW GT army. Undead infantry is better than almost all other infantry, but its still infantry. Once you face enemies that take no infantry, blocks of static res infantry are not very good and they do almost nothing against an entirely stubborn enemy.


2x10 ghouls and one larger ghoul block to start. ghoulkin somewhere. Two flying vampires, maybe a lycni vamp, two vargulfs. Everything is about trying to charge the engines and knock the priests off.
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
5,444
#3
I don't know the exact details of EotG so my advice I'm pulling this out of my behind; this is just based on what I've read.

From what I know, the biggest challenge is the laser. If you can knock that out, by killing the skink priest, the actual stegadon should not be too difficult to handle (with only 3 attacks, undead can easily reraise that amount). I'm unsure of the actual point cost of the skink + eotg, but I'm assuming at least 200 pts for what you get. The laser should be magical, so I'm also assuming ethereals would not be a good choice. Also, I'm assuming if you kill all the skinks, it has to roll on the monster reaction test.

Good choices I can think of are:

1) Vampire Lord. One of these should be able to kill a Stegadon, or the priest. Either flying mount or flying ability, Sword of might/lance, red fury, infinite hatred. Add a dragon and that should kill it for sure. If the steg dies, the rest should run via autobreak. (although I'd work out the odds before hand w. cold blooded and BSB nearby what that would actually be).
2) GG with great weapons. If you can close in combat, they should do some be able to grind it down. But with the army you described, I don't see why he would want to close in for combat, and would dance around as much as possible. With combined skirmishers, heavy magic, GG may not make the best choice.
3) Varghulfs. As monsters, the charging options for these guys should be great. They can turn around most screens to get at the large target behind it. I wouldn't expect them to live though; just hopefully knock the priest off. 5 attacks w. hatred, 4 should hit, all should wound, and it means a what, 4 4+AS? Hopefully enough to knock him off. If not, the varghulf will most likely be knocked down after that from EotG.
4) Flying vamps w. Great weapons. A better chance to knock down the priest, but at the expense of casting power. Also, a goner if he fluffs.

I also think infantry might be ok. If he has little support, he can dance around your units, but at the expense (hopefully) of having one or more away from the BSB. That would mean a greater chance of breaking once combat is joined.
 

MasterSpark

Nostalgian
Staff member
True Blood
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
4,691
#4
A unit I'd recommend for taking out the Skink Priests on top of the Engines would be Black Knights without a unit champion, this to prevent safety through challenging for the Skink Priest. This is one of the few occasions when your unaided Black Knights will hit on a 3+ and their high strength will severely reduce the targets save, if not kill him outright with KB. They're also quite cheap if taken in small units. :)
 

Johnny B

Grave Guard
Joined
Sep 21, 2009
Messages
283
#5
Well, if you want to beat this monstrosity its clearly time to play hardball and no-one does that quite like VCs xD

Firstly, the Frog has to die. I feel trying to match him with magic will likely just mean you achieve relatively little for your points. Probably better to go with a combat monster, as you need to kill some T6 stegs.
Its a shame you say you don't have any large flyer models, as a Zombie Dragon Lord with Infinite Hatred, Red Fury, Beguile, Balefire Spike and Carstein Ring would be great fun here. Even a Dreadlance lord on a barded steed could be nice.

Varghulfs are nice for knocking the skink priests off the engines and surviving the encounter. Plus the terror threatens Skinks too. Keep some wolves/bats handy to charge the skinks screens, thus clearing the way for the Varghulf's charges into the engines (declared after the wolves).

I would leave the GG at home (S6 ancient stegadon hits and Burning Alignment both negate their armour) and max out on Ghouls if you have the models (the T4 takes the edge off the D6 S5 and the poison is nice too). Start your units big (20 minimum), as he has 10 dispel dice and you can't rely on raises going off. The Drakenhoff should help a lot (it may be called Burning Alignment, but it isn't actually Flaming). If you're feeling brave, then double-banner (Drakenhoff and Flag of Blood Keep) Blood Knights may be the way to go, but its risky.

I miss Hand of Dust (the spell).
 
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
14
#6
I played against a similar list during ard boyz, but iwth 2 engines and a stegadon ancient and 2 slanns. I was slaughtered to say the least.

After the game I realized I could have given a lord on a winged nightmare the frostblade, and just chewed through the stegs. Only need 1 wound to get through. He'd be almost defenseless, but it's an idea. Hide him out in a block until he's in charge range, and hten do it.
 

Fodderboy

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
2,243
#7
TW, a winged nightmare can't camp out in a unit. Otherwise it could be fun. A Dread Knight with Flying Horror would work, though.

I'd think that a Black Coach could be fun with this. Just out of pure orneriness.

Try to raise re-directing speed bumps and hit the flanks. I like 6-wide ghouls for taking the beasties out (7-wide if you can hit the flank). You'll hit and wound the priests and on 3's, so each ghoul should be able to do 1 wound, and he's only got 2. You'll also hit the Slaan on 3's, wound on 5's.

Great Weapon Grave Guard should also do some damage, especially if you back them up with the crown on your lord.

Lord with Dread Knight, Flying Horror, Infinite Hatred, Nightshroud, Gem of Blood, Wristbands. Park him in a unit of Ghouls until he's within flying range (turn 2), then hit the large target lord. Throw in the book for the second round of combat vs the steg if you like.

Banshees should also be your friend. An average roll should almost take out a steg all by itself. Charge into CC with 5 wraiths, hit the steg and you should win.

Blood Knights should make a mess of at least one of the stegs.

So: 3 Ghouls in blocks of 18 or 21, 3 deep
Blood Knights x 5 with the Flag of the Blood Keep
5 Wraiths + Banshee
Flying Lord.

I've used up 1479 of your points. Have fun with the rest.
 
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Messages
688
#8
Characters

Hatred Lord riding a Zombie Dragon, possibly with a Frostblade to rip through those big dinos.

Wight King BSB with the Drakenhoff Banner, leading a unit of Great Weapon wielding Grave Guard.

Core

Either all zombie core to deny him any real victory points through easy-to-target blocks (forcing him to engage your Drakenhoff Guard Deathstar, yaay!), or all Ghouls to capitalise on their poison attacks. Both are lacking armour, also, so the Burning Alignment effect 'looses' one of its strengths.

Special
Black Knights with the Strigos Banner could provide some nice manoeuvrable high-strength attacks, and could quite easily assassinate the Priests atop the Engines. Just be careful of the Burning Alignment as, unlike other potential components in the list, these guys actually have armour that it can bypass.

Grave Guard with great weapons, led by the aforementioned Drakenhoff Wight King. I've had these guys rip through a Carnosaur/Engine/Baby Steg/Sallies in one game alone - just make sure he has nothing else worthwhile attacking, or can't catch the other stuff that is (Dragon Lord/Knights/Varghulf).

Rare

Varghulf. Wonderful unit. Allocate all his attacks on the Priest on top, and you're in for a good chance at disabling the Engine in one phase of combat.

Banshee within a unit of Wraiths. Although ethereals may not be the best option against such a magic heavy list, in addition to the recently FAQ'd magical attacks that the Burning Alignment kicks out, the scream could worry those low-leadership stegs. Probably not worth it though, as dual Varghulfs (or even some Blood Knights in place of the Black Knights) do a better job.
 
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Messages
59
#9
Hey, new here and new to fantasy. First off apolagies for bringing up a 2 month thread but i thought it better than making a new one.
My friend (and currently only opponent) is also running multiple EotG and its giving me some hell. I do have a few questions to ask:

1. Why does everyone say str 5? Its str 6 against undead and deamons?
2. If the above is true and im not getting anything wrong, how on earth do i combat this? skeles do nothing with toughness 3, and whats the point in T4 ghouls when hes still wounding on a 2+?
3. Im really having some trouble making a balanced list that will be able to compete against multiple opponents that can handle multiple EotG, can you make any suggestions that would still be tournament worthy?
 

Johnny B

Grave Guard
Joined
Sep 21, 2009
Messages
283
#10
Why does everyone say str 5? Its str 6 against undead and deamons?
I'm pretty sure the eotg is STR 5, and Lore of Light spells are STR 6 vs Undead and Daemons.

If the above is true and im not getting anything wrong, how on earth do i combat this?
Kill the priest and it stops working. Varghulfs and Black Knights are both good for this, just bear in mind he will move before firing the engine so keep your distance accordingly. With D6 hits, he is unlikely to wipe out a unit of 5-6 knights anyway, and the Varghulf can take it (its called Burning Alignment but it isn't flaming so he gets regen).

Im really having some trouble making a balanced list that will be able to compete against multiple opponents that can handle multiple EotG, can you make any suggestions that would still be tournament worthy?
Caster Lord, combat vamp BSB, 3 units of Ghouls, Black Knights and Varghulf plus Wolves/Bats and either a third hero or some Wraiths/Corpse Carts. Knights and Varghulf go for the engines, everyone else engage the lizardmen infantry. Its won't be easy, but the multiple engines lists are basically designed to fight VCs, and actually aren't that great against many other armies.
 
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Messages
59
#11
Thanks for the reply.
So in general i should be looking into ghouls over skeletons?
shame, i'm used to armor saves and skele looks as a necron player lol.
Any advice as to what forbidden lore i should take?
What sort of unit sizes should i be looking into for my ghouls to start of?
 

Munkey

Grave Guard
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
257
#12
For my 2 pence, I would recommend taking Count Mannfred+book+Skull Staff, with a Wight King BSB carrying the Drakenhoff banner, In a nice big unit of Bloodknights+Flag of the bloodKeep. Lots of wards and regens against all those magicall missiles and Ancient steg attacks. Counts Mannfred can attempt Danse a number of time, which should help with the multiple redirecting he will attempt. I am sure the stegs will not last long with this lot charging...maybe!
 
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
232
#13
burning alignment does say strength 6 against demons and undead, so would not be worth going the the T4, against skellies T3, however, neither would get an armor save against pretty much anything in the army, and both cost the same so ghouls with their multiple poisoned attacks should work best.

I like my dragon slayer lord, has not faced the jurassic park list yet, but has faced monster heavy dark elves

vampire lord
+1 caster level
red fury
infinite hatred
beguile
frostblade
zombie dragon

he is joined by a nice big unit of bats and each head staigh at an eye ASAP. the rest of the army will then move in on the slann as soon as the alignment risk is neutralised.
 
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Messages
59
#15
Your dragon lord doesnt have a save? :S
isn't that a bit suicidal when at 2550 the lord must be the general.

Had some great success today:

Blood knights x 4
blood keep banner
banner
musician
Vampire
drakenhoff banner

Flanked into a Eotg using the 8inch movement spell (cant remember name), killed it that turn by focusing on the stegadon (strength 7 makes 3+ go to no armour save if i'm right), priest fell, broke.
I overan into saurus, won that combat, forced them to break (ran through allied unit)
I overan into a second block of saurus, broke them (ran through EOTG and previous running saurus)
Overan into EOTG, again focused on steg and had the exact same scenario as before.
Overan into fleeing saurus and ran them off the map.
I couldn't believe it :|

question:
If you charge a fleeing unit, and they auto break due to fleeing, do you get to make an overun movement?
In addition if you are say, within 5 inches of a charge, the enemy flee as a charge reaction say 5 inches. Do you get to complete the 14 inch charge and completely wipe the fleeing unit or do you get a failed charge and only move 7?
 

Johnny B

Grave Guard
Joined
Sep 21, 2009
Messages
283
#16
I couldn't believe it
lol why not? Blood Knights are mental xD It's basically a unit of Heroes.

If you charge a fleeing unit, and they auto break due to fleeing, do you get to make an overun movement?
Nope.

In addition if you are say, within 5 inches of a charge, the enemy flee as a charge reaction say 5 inches. Do you get to complete the 14 inch charge and completely wipe the fleeing unit or do you get a failed charge and only move 7?
You only need to equal their roll, so you go 14" and turn them into a red smear.

You mean Strength 5 for Burning Alignment against undeaders...
lol is it 5 or 6?! Now I'm confused as well :vampire2:
 
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Messages
59
#17
Its strength 5 against us and str 4 against others
We checked it today.

Following the previous questions.
If you were to charge a fleeing unit 4 inches away, whilst you cant overun can you again make the full 14 inch charge, say to hit another unit, or as you so beautifully put early, turn them to red smear if they only flee 5 :tongue:
 

Johnny B

Grave Guard
Joined
Sep 21, 2009
Messages
283
#18
If you were to charge a fleeing unit 4 inches away, whilst you cant overun can you again make the full 14 inch charge, say to hit another unit, or as you so beautifully put early, turn them to red smear if they only flee 5 :tongue:
You charge the fleeing unit, they flee again. You can only go a total of 14" with your charge, overruns and pursuit moves are done after close combat.

If you run down the fleeing unit and that 14" move (a normal charge in a straight line towards the fleeing unit) happens to take you into fresh enemy, this is also fine and you count as charging.
 
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