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Heroic Killing Blow and Red Thirst

Corien Sumatris

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Messages
1,536
#1
Hey quick question, If you give a Vampire Lord red thirst and the heroic killing blow vampiric power then you hit and wound with your 1 attack, do you still get the red fury attacks? Thus you give up all of your attacks for 1 with heroic killing blow. Red fury reads that if your attack kills a model outright then you gain attacks for the number of remaining wounds.

Example, A vampire lord heroic killing blows a dragon (lets say 5 wounds remaining) then would he get an extra 5 attacks for the remaining wounds even though the power states to exchange all of the attacks for 1 heroic killing blow attack.
 

Psiosis

Skeleton
Joined
May 26, 2013
Messages
61
#2
Corien Sumatris said:
Hey quick question, If you give a Vampire Lord red thirst and the heroic killing blow vampiric power then you hit and wound with your 1 attack, do you still get the red fury attacks? Thus you give up all of your attacks for 1 with heroic killing blow. Red fury reads that if your attack kills a model outright then you gain attacks for the number of remaining wounds.

Example, A vampire lord heroic killing blows a dragon (lets say 5 wounds remaining) then would he get an extra 5 attacks for the remaining wounds even though the power states to exchange all of the attacks for 1 heroic killing blow attack.
I would assume that you exchange all of your initial attacks for the heroic killing blow, and that the red fury hits happen "after" since they are a result of the wounds caused by the heroic killing blow. (although they do happen at the same initiative before models are removed)

More interestingly, could you exchange your red fury attacks for another heroic killing blow strike?

I am just imaging a vampire lord chilling in a second rank, using master strike, and red fury master strike AGAIN.
 

Corien Sumatris

Vampire Count
True Blood
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Jul 3, 2013
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#3
As far as being in the second rank, The vampire can still only make 1 supporting attack correct? Even though red fury is different than base attacks, I would still assume that supporting attacks still matter.
 
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
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708
#4
HBK makes you exchange all your 5 attacks for that single hit, if you effectively kill your target (a dragon with 5 wounds) then Red Fury allows you to, quote: "For each unsaved wound that the vampire causes in CC, it can immediately make a further attack. These attacks do not benefit from RF. (more interestingly) An attack that automatically kills an enemy (like the HKB you are referring to) counts as having done an amount of wounds equal to the number of Wounds that model had remaining." unquote.

So basically, the answer is YES, you trade all your attacks, effectively kill your target and get the RF effect that adds 5 more attacks because you killed off 5 wounds.
The question is, is there anything left to attack?
 

Corien Sumatris

Vampire Count
True Blood
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#7
Yeah, My idea of this was to drop a dragon straight off and kill the rider once the dragon was gone. Now, as mentioned before, Could you exchange your Red fury attacks for an extra HKB attack? I don't know why you would, just curious
 

eggsPR

Vampire Count
True Blood
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Aug 28, 2011
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1,139
#8
I'd say every additional Red Fury attack from Master Srtike would have HKB, bc it would be THAT much cooler if you actually did pull this off.
 

Corien Sumatris

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True Blood
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Jul 3, 2013
Messages
1,536
#9
That would be amazing ... except you only need one. Although try that against ogres and cause some odd 16 wounds! (say Target the character in the unit then gain 4 additional HKB attacks)
 
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#10
From the way i see it in this situation, you gain 5 extra attacks at once. (you made 5 wounds with one HKB) This would mean that you will have to trade in all those 5 attacks again for a single HKB. Not 5 HKB consecutively.
 
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#12
Yes, from my point of view, you could do 2 HKB on that same CC enemy.
One on the rider, one on the mount (if the mount has not already fled before due to the rider getting killed)
 

Count Darvaleth

I <3 marmite
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Apr 26, 2010
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#14
If we try to look at this analytically, when you first strike you trade all your attacks for a single attack, but gain the HKB rule. Implicitly this rule will last for the combat; ie to the bitter end with wound resolution and removal of casualties, not just for the to hit roll, for example.

However, Red Fury provides an exception to the normal flow of combat, allowing additional attacks to be made. These attacks don't benefit from RF, but otherwise don't lose any special rules; RF can be made with your magic weapon, combined with Ghoul King's Hatred etc. It specifically states RF does not get reapplied, but otherwise the attacks are resolved as per the original set of attacks.

Except, in this case, you traded your original set of attacks for a single attack, but gained HKB. When you have managed to generate extra attacks from RF, you still have HKB for that round; nothing has stolen it from you. Surely it is more reasonable to assume that a rule is retained, once given in the first place, when nothing states it is removed, rather than assuming it is removed? Let's look at it chronologically.

1. Combat begins.
2. You strike first (obviously, VC ftw), higher Initiative-step
3. All attacks traded for one.
4. HKB gained.
5. Roll to hit.
6. Roll to wound, apply HKB,
7. Dead dragon.

For the Bretonnian Lord, this is happy days, tea and biscuits. However, for us...

8. Red Fury! Extra 6 attacks granted.
9. Roll to hit.
10. Roll to wound, apply HKB.
11. Kill 6 more dragons..

Personally, I think it makes sense that once you've gained HKB, it isn't arbitrarily removed. You've already fulfilled Master Strike's requirement (which is to trade your starting attacks for a single one) so you've gained the benefit (HKB). Now that you've managed to get some extra attacks, what rule is it that is reducing them down to one attack? You already have HKB so you don't need to use Master Strike again (not that you really could apply a Vampiric power twice in a row like that), and nothing can conceivably have taken away the HKB unless there was some other special rule in play.

Of course, I'm somewhat biased towards VC, and heavily biased towards the rule of cool; if you decapitate a poncy High Elf's Phoenix, then you damn well better slice the Elf into tins of spaghetti!
 
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
125
#15
Depends. I don't ever take the bugger, but its a bit more of a grey area than that. It says "All of his attacks," and while you can interpret that to mean the attacks on his profile, I'm inclined to at least entertain the idea that you don't multiply it with Red Fury (since you give up ALL your attacks for one HKB attack).

Its too dicey for me to play it that way.

And I'd like to point out that the Master Strike rule specifically states a Single Attack with HKB. No way, even if you did multiply the attacks, would they ALL get it. Assuming you did it that way, I'd roll it like a NecroSphinx and use a single, different colored dice.
 
Joined
Oct 12, 2012
Messages
121
#16
that you would get HKB on the RF attacks is wishful thinking, you have the option to Exchange the attacks for a singel HKB attack, so when you get the extra RF attacks you can either attack normally or exchange again. Sorry to spoil the fun, but seems like bending the rules to Me :tongue:
 

Corien Sumatris

Vampire Count
True Blood
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Jul 3, 2013
Messages
1,536
#17
It's just a bit too unclear, I tend to agree that you can exchange the attacks for a single HKB attack then gain a number of attacks equal to the wounds lost but these do not benefit from HKB, although you can still switch all of your Red FUry attakcs for an additional 1 HKB attack.
 
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