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High Elves

Atrophus

Grave Guard
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
Messages
214
#2
Nightshroud, great weapon, heavy armour, talisman of preservation, Ots, red fury, quickblood, beguile.

Cancels their re-rolls, can still hurt them with mundane weapon.
 
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Messages
154
#3
Thanks Atrophus,that looks good. What character support would you add?.I'll be playing at 2500 points so I will probably use a BK bus and the associated elements
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
176
#4
Against elves I think the great weapon is over kill for toughness 3, you are wounding on 2's anyway and they are generally very lightly armoured.
I play against elves all the time and I use the following with black knights.

Heavy armour shield, lance, barded nightmare, nightshroud, tots, talisman of pres, quick blood, red fury, beguile.

That way you still get the +2 str on the charge, but you have a 2+ 4++, and you'll still shred elves in subsequent turns at str 5, and without a great weapon you'll get to reroll your misses
And 2+ save is great with nightshroud as elves will nearly all need 6's to wound and no modifier to the save
 
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
86
#5
Remeber though, that nightshroud dont work against supporting attacks, so thouse White Lions can stil hurt you with S6 from support. And high elfes have them more from martial prowess. Also, Potion of strenght is boosting the strenght, and is not weapon bonus, so it is not cancelled and can work preety well for them. Also, high magic can destroy nightshroud so watch out in magic phase.
Also, try to avoid flaming attacks - they have option to take mundane armour that granting them fireborn(ward save 2++ against flaming). They do not have too much regen in the army anyway.
 

Atrophus

Grave Guard
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
Messages
214
#6
Against elves I think the great weapon is over kill for toughness 3, you are wounding on 2's anyway and they are generally very lightly armoured.
I play against elves all the time and I use the following with black knights.

Heavy armour shield, lance, barded nightmare, nightshroud, tots, talisman of pres, quick blood, red fury, beguile.

That way you still get the +2 str on the charge, but you have a 2+ 4++, and you'll still shred elves in subsequent turns at str 5, and without a great weapon you'll get to reroll your misses
And 2+ save is great with nightshroud as elves will nearly all need 6's to wound and no modifier to the save
I agree it is overkill against T3, however the S7 is for dealing with frost heart's and Dragons and chariots. Aswell as grinding through armour if the unit you charge holds, or if you get counter charged by dragon princes or silver helm buses.

@Wolf Child at that points level I'd be tempted to run another Vampire Lord, to really smash through units.
And maybe a Wight king to accept challenges, something cheap maybe- Dragon Helm, great weapon, Barded steed.
 

Macarian

Vampire Insomniac
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
114
#7
I have fought the Banner of the World Dragon horde before, but do you guys really think it's possible to fight it straight up and win? I mean, not only are our magic toys useless, they get a normal Ward Save from the High Magic Lore attribute. In my experience the High Elf always had a lvl 4 and a lvl 2 in that unit so it had a 4++ or at least a 5++ even after dispelling a few spells. Not to mention the fact that High Elves eat Magic Items or teleport around.

The way I won against such lists are divided in two ways. Either kill his things around the Horde (Phoenixes, Bolt Throwers, chaff) while redirecting the Horde with Dire Wolves. Or, against the point-denial (the ones who dump all their points into the unit, hide it in a corner, zap a unit of chaff and claim victory) jerks, I suicide up to ten units of Dire Wolves (buffed with Light and Vampires Magic) into the unit just to kill the Archmage. After that I hide my army and only kill things I am sure I can kill without losing anything.

(Unrelated note, against the point-denial people after the game I shake their hand and say this was the last time we played outside of a tournament. I don't mind playing a tough deathstar but abusing the rules just to feel big is not my idea of Saturday night)

Please can someone post up a list with which they beat the unit in combat straight up with a small text explaining how, I am very interested if it can be done.
 
Last edited:

Demian

Vampire Count
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
1,248
#8
The horde can be defeated... although not straight up, perhaps.

If I were to face them in frontal combat, I'd go with "our" Deathstar:

- Vlad von Carstein, Mortarch of Shadows, Tomb King with tons of defensive stuff and Great Weapon, 40-50 Grave Guard with Banner of the Barrows, and two Mortis Engines. Lore of Undeath to summon a third, and/or other options, like Terrorgheists, Morghasts, etc.

(They'd hit you on 5's, you'd hit them on 3's and we can have Lore of Vampires's buffs like VDM and a Regen save)


Anyways, that's not the best option. I find that Cavalry on the flank will really hurt them, and no horde can survive a flank combat, regardless of skill. You just have to bait and lure them into an uncomfortable decision, being charged by Cavalry or a Black Coach. Crypt Horrors can weather down a turn if their Regen is not countered by Caradryan (our local HE player loves to include him with the White Lions). Hell, even a Varghulf on the side will survive and eat some elves. Vargheists (a large unit) will take some punishment, but can easily maneouver to their rear and smack them with a ton of S5 attacks too, and they are good for taking shooty units as well!

Yes you can beat them! :D
 

Seneschal

Liche
True Blood
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
5,524
#9
If you are tailoring a list specifically to counter a white lion world dragon death star,

VL LVL 1 QB RF 4++, Armor of silvered steel, extra hand weapon in a fifty model skellie unit five wide backed up by...

Master Necro LVL 4 Vamps, Periapt
Necro hero book of Arkhan
In a zombie bunker

Keep healing and you will win through attrition.
 

HERO

Wight King
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
434
#10
Hi,What Vampire Lord build would you use vs High Elves with the banner of the world dragon?
If you know you're specifically fighting that, I would roll with Black Peripat, 4+ Ward and just keep it stock with Lance. Blender of course, but this will give you magic on par with the Book while still able to deal with the BotWD unit.
 
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Messages
154
#11
Thanks guys,some good tips there.
@ Atrophus,Good idea, two Lords ought to smash things up,I reckon Banner of the World Dragon Hordes deserve it
@Demian,Your Deathstar is nuts,I would love to see that in action! and there's me feeling a twinge of guilt about bringing 2 lords hahaha
@Seneschal,yeah that looks good,I will add that to the list
@HERO It seems that 2 versions of the BotWD unit are popular around here,White Lions or Sword Masters.I will probably be using the list we worked on a while back upgraded to 2500 with the ideas suggested.
 

HERO

Wight King
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
434
#12
@Wolf Child

It doesn't matter which of those you face, a mundane Blender Lord will take giant shits on either of them, especially when you have a Nightshroud escort.
 

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
True Blood
Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
2,047
#14
I use a Vampire Lord with heavy armor, great weapon, quickblood, red fury, black periapt, ToP. Doesn't fail me. Solid and versatile. He fights in infantry blocks so he can hop around from unit to unit easier and has more bodies around him for protection and ranks. Plus, infantry is easier to heal.

He eats elves for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Bring a second unit of skeletons with the flame banner and he can hop into them and make short work of Nurgle filth too.
 
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
124
#15
Against the High Elf Banner of the World dragon unit I would suggest dealing with it the same way any death star should be dealt with. Chaff it, then kill its support, if you are feeling confident, once the unit is isolated (meaning you have killed the High Elf bolt throwers, phoenix, ect.) then combo charge the BotWd unit.

I have found when facing Death Stars it is essential early on to plan if you are actually going to try to tackle the 'star, 9/10 I choose to avoid and clean up everything around. My game plan would be to not send my VL into the 'star, since that is the most direct counter, but isntead try to feed the 'star wolves and zombies, with the VL kills everything else :).

Even if you eventually want to get the deathstar, often the opponent will get frustrated because you are negating their big toy, begin making mistakes, and allow you to clean up the unit. Never be afraid to look at a deathstar, especially the Banner of the World Dragon unit, and say, na. Honestly, the bolt throwers and other components are essential to making the unit work, white lions aren't too hard to avoid if they don't have chaff ;).

That is my advice. If you really insist on fighting the deathstar the build isn't as important (just don't take magic weapons), instead, put as many attacks as possible on characters (I often choose heroes over lords, as they are lighter protected). It is tough to kill all the White Lions, but W2 elf characters can be some quick points with a little luck (even a 4+ save isn't that reliable). Varghiests are great for this as they have a ton of attacks a s5 which will cut through foot elves. Consider killing lvl 2s asap, as without support casters it is much easier to negate the big threats of the lvl 4.
 
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Messages
1
#16
In a 1000 pt game I encountered a HE Prince on a Griffon. I only brought a lvl2 vamp and couldn't avoid the flyer. My general got chopped up by 5 attacks, hitting on 2's, re-rollable. Would Atrophus's kit attack first?
 
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Messages
154
#17
Thanks Grok,good advice.I played two games against HE in a small tournament the other day.I lost the first game and in the second I managed to avoid the star like you said while the Varghiests and Terrorghiest killed off his bolt throwers etc. It ended up a draw,which I was OK with considering my ogre blade wielding Vampire Lord was neutralized.
@najo I wish I had taken your build,you tried to tell me but would I listen?
 

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
True Blood
Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
2,047
#18
I've killed me many an elf and beast of nurgle both with that vampire lord. You can make him even killier by moving the black periapt onto a necromancer and then using the space created to take other tricksters shard and nightshroud.

Problem with mounting the vampire is black knight bus lacks wounds to absorb attacks from elf white lions and sword masters. They strike first, and easily have 18+ great weapon attacks. Not to mention any characters and other support or magic. A skeletal or ghoul bus can provide better static rank bonus and generate better results on subsequent rounds of combat.
 
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
124
#19
Thanks Grok,good advice.I played two games against HE in a small tournament the other day.I lost the first game and in the second I managed to avoid the star like you said while the Varghiests and Terrorghiest killed off his bolt throwers etc. It ended up a draw,which I was OK with considering my ogre blade wielding Vampire Lord was neutralized.
@najo I wish I had taken your build,you tried to tell me but would I listen?
Glad it sort of helped :) after you approach death stars this way a couple of times it gets easier to mitigate your loses and pull out some wins :). Also, yeah as you discovered taking the magic weapon on the VL can make it pretty lackluster against high elves :/
 

Atrophus

Grave Guard
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
Messages
214
#20
In a 1000 pt game I encountered a HE Prince on a Griffon. I only brought a lvl2 vamp and couldn't avoid the flyer. My general got chopped up by 5 attacks, hitting on 2's, re-rollable. Would Atrophus's kit attack first?
No it wouldn't attack first, it would attack after the prince (higher initiative I think) but before the griffon.
However the prince would only strike at strength 4 and couldn't re-roll misses, so you'd just target the griffon and go for the easiest kill.
But I wouldn't advise taking him in a 1000pt game, he's alot of points.
 
Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
133
#21
Apart from all that good solutions (=any blender lord without magic weapon), a 10-man unit of crypt horrors mulch light troops (and White lions or any other HE infantry ARE light: 5+ armour and T3) like an eighteen wheeler.

Backup them with a couple of van hels (spell & arkhan book), maybe a Mortis Engine to improve their regeneration (and cast with a +2), or even a corpse chariot for the ASF thing, and the pointy ears should be obliterated ;)
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
176
#22
Yeah I find crypt horrors are one of the best things against elves. Even when they negate the regen they are still pretty tough and have a shed load of attacks and stomps against the weedy little elves
 
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Messages
154
#23
Problem with mounting the vampire is black knight bus lacks wounds to absorb attacks from elf white lions and sword masters. They strike first, and easily have 18+ great weapon attacks. Not to mention any characters and other support or magic. A skeletal or ghoul bus can provide better static rank bonus and generate better results on subsequent rounds of combat.
Yeah I see what you mean about infantry over black Knights I'm kinda leaning that way myself now when I write lists.I love the speed and armor save of the knights but its good to have a load of infantry around you sometimes.
@Grok ,I'll be better prepared next time,with that 50% lord thing I'd gotten it into my head that everybody would be turning up with Demon Princes and in fact I did play against a WOC/Demon Prince setup which my army rampaged through but (for me anyway) the real threat was HE.
 
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
124
#24
Wolf Child, elves are the current "hotness" I would say. In a competitive environment Warriors are still a threat, but the variety of Elf armies are the stars of the show.

(and that is spoken as someone who has used Dark Elves for the last year and a half lol)
 
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Messages
154
#25
Yeah,I agree.Elves seem to be at the top tier these days.A Wood Elf army won the tournament I played in. I've played a few games against DE so I sort of know what to expect,they are still formidable though.(I love that picture in their book of the Har Ganeth Executioners dealing with Plague bearers) I'm not looking forward to going up against the new Wood Elves for the first time.
 
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