The Old World How are Vampire Counts in The Old World rules?

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Disciple of Nagash

Libidinosus
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Feb 12, 2008
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So when they announced the Old World I was very excited....and then less so when I saw that VC didn't get proper support. TK got really good treatment to be fair, but I was gutted to see VC didn't. But that said when I saw recent success rate list it seemed that VC was still doing well despite not getting rules updates. I also see rumours that with the success of TOW many people think that these armies might end up getting supported in time?

So I was curious as to who has played VC under the TOW rules, do they perform well, what's best/worst? What previous edition does it feel closest to?
 
Old World saw a significant core rules adjustment a month or two ago, and I haven't had a chance to catch up or play much since then, so I don't really know how vamp counts are doing ~right now~.

However, at least before the revamp, Vampire Counts were doing rather well. Probably the strongest and most complex of the legends pdf army, Vamp Counts have a rule set very much on par with the official factions. If rated among them it would be easily in the upper half.

Magic, Dragons, recursion (especially of blood knights), leadership manipulation compined with fear/terror/screams, all of these have been very strong. Great weapon grave guard with stacked banner of barrows & carstein banner are a scary elite infantry, while zombies are suitably cheap chaff. Necromancer lords on Mortis Engines are especially nasty, or at least they were at one point. Again, I'm not up to date on the current meta.

Some downsides, though. The army list is pretty restrictive, with a lot of either or choices or forced heroes to unlock units. There's no bloodline rules, there army ferls very 8e that way. Some of the things that are strong feel syrong in the wrong ways. for instance, blood knights are super powerful... in large part because they can be easily healed by necromancers. Vampire heroes are kind of middle of the roadsy jack-of-all-trades types. Without the oldschool melee power of red terror they're kind of overshadowed by chaos lords & the like, & they're much less points efgicient than the more specialized necromancers & wights. And while wights & zombies are solid infantry, skeletons were kind of lacking in a niche of their own.

And as a legacy army, there's no rule updates or balance patches coming to vamp counts, at least not in the foreseeable future. At least not official ones. Legacy also means no arcane journal, but that's not as big a penalty as it sounds. They aren't as major as army books, they don't replace the main faction army list, mostly just add some varient themed list options. And again the main vamp counts list is already solid & has a lot of potential build variety.

There have been community efforts... Honest Wargamer published a community faq/update for all the legacy factions that some events have used. I'm not sure how widely adopted it is on the cadual scene though. I saw a solid homebrew arcane journal too, but i haven't seen that used anywhere.

There were also some problems with the core rules. infantry struggled, dragons, spell spam, & pegasus knights ran roughshod. Dont get me wrong, Old World was a great effort and its a lot of fun, but some jank & rust was to be expected for a game rising from near a decade in the grave.

But again, there was a recent rules overhaul meant yo tackle some of this, boosting infantry, nerfing skermishers, knocking magic back a bit, etc. Again, haven't played since, but they mostly sounded like moves in the right direction.

There is also hope for vamp counts going forward. A lot of the behind the scenes Old World situation is kind of murky, but it's clear the game was originally envisioned as something bigger (early dev work on cathay & kislev, rules & lore design for all the 8e factions, etc) but someone higher up got cold feet & the scope was cut way down before launch, plus a decision was made to fully separate the aos & old world lines.

But that launch was much more successful than gw anticipated, & interest has been sustained. We've seen the scope of the game expand since, with a full new faction in Cathay, & now that all the official factions have arcane journals rumors are buzzing with what comes after. A proper second edition? Kislev? Other new factions? returning old factions once AoS range updates free up old models - the way new aos slave to darkness models exist alongside the old world warriors of chaos?

There's been a lot of... rumors are the wrong word, but speculation about the old Vampire Counts range officially returning to old world this way. Alternatively, some have speculated about vampire coast as a new brand new faction doubling as a kind of sort of vamp counts revival.

I don't think any of that is immenant, mind. What we have is what we've got for the foreseeable future. But I don't think Tomb Kings will be the only official undead in thd Old World long term. And in the mean time the Vamp Counts legacy rules aren't half bad, especially if you find a play group open to home brew / community dtiven content.
 
So are they gonna bring Vampires to the Old World?
I realy would like old Skeletons back! I hate thuse armored ones in AOS!!
Bring back the Bone Boiz! (I know there are the Tomb King ones but their are little off with the ones I already have Deathrattle Skeleton Warriors)
 
We do not know if the old vamp counts range will return as an old world faction. There's a lot if speculation, but nothing concrete. Several models are still stuck in AoS, including zombie dragon/terrirgheist, mortis engines/coven thrones, crypt horrors/vargheists, crypt ghouls, hexwraiths (and by extension black knights, even though barrow knights exist to replace them). But there's enough left to make a whole faction's worth even without them, especially if you consider the possibility of bringing back even older sculpts of ghouls, black knights, zombie dragon, and so on.

HOWEVER, even if they could hypothetically release a fully separate old world vamp counts range, we don't know if corporate would let them. The point of keeping Old World and AoS as separate ranges seems to be in order to track sales of the various games separately for the purpose of making financial decisions / making the teams compete with each other for corporate resources. Even if there were technically separate model ranges, some Old World players would still buy and use AoS models because they look cooler, while some AoS players would still use Old World models because they cost less, and this would blur the lines and muddy the sales figures. Corporate would have a harder time determining which game should get what resources, and teams might start cooperating and coordinating to promote each others' sales instead of competing and undermining each other, which in turn would promote horizontal loyalties among labour and thus subvert vertical subordinance to capital. Whether a country or a corporation, a divided population is easier to control.

Specialist Team were allowed to do the dual ranges thing for Warriors of Chaos, but chaos is kind of special. You could have an old world game without vamp counts, but you couldn't have one without chaos warriors, they and empire are load bearing factions. So the fact that this was allowed for Chaos doesn't mean it will be allowed for Vamp Counts (or dark elves, ogres, lizardmen, skaven, etc).

Old World wasn't allowed to keep Chaos Dwarves because they were slated for AoS release, even though the AoS range is going to be entirely new models with no old range holdovers at all. This example is the main thing I would point to in order to say NO, I don't think we're going to get a straight forward port of the old Vamp Counts range to Old World, even after it's all fully replaced in AoS. At least, not any time soon / under current management.

However, I again don't think that's the end of the story. Corporate leadership and its philosophy and dictates change over time. Making departments feud with each other and preventing cross-promotion and spillover sales of your products is obviously leaving money on the table, and eventually someone will be in charge who wants to start picking that money up again. This might be three years down the line, or five years, or ten, but one day it'll happen.


And even in the mean time, the Vampire Coast is ~right over there~, with a really cool aesthetic and narrative concept, and proven appeal via the same Total Warhammer game that is at least in part responsible for the Old World in general and Cathay in particular existing at all. That's something that Specialist Team might be able to sell as a potentially popular entirely new faction that wouldn't unduly cross over with AoS's Gravelords, even though the army would still have zombies, and skeletons, and wights, and vampires, and necromancers, and ghosts. Enough overlap that veteran vampire counts players would likely be able to put together viable armies using their old collections and run the rules counts-as style, & might even see some of the classic range re-released. It wouldn't be a perfect substitute, cavalry and zombie dragons in particular would likely be missing, so old blood dragon players in particular would be left high and dry. But still, it wouldn't be nothing.

And even if considered as their own thing and not as a back door substitute for sneaking Vampire Counts back into the game, Vampirates would still be a cool faction with a lot of potential. Harkon, Noctilus, & such are interesting and somewhat underexplored characters in Old World lore, and the faction could tie in with Sartossa and Tilea which are also commonly pointed to as potential areas for Old World to expand on. Vampirates could also tie in with Cathay via the Jade Blooded vampire lineage mentioned in old lore and the Dead Flag npc faction off the Cathayan coast in Total Warhammer. Warhammer Devs love to pull from pop culture, and we're still not far removed from the global phenomenon that was the Pirates of the Carribean franchise, which was itself full of undeadly goodness and richly overcomplicated lore and fantasy politics that feel almost tailor made to fit perfectly into the Warhammer Fantasy world, with rival pirate fleets feuding and competing with each other but still loosly bound together by a sort of code meant to help them survive in the face of 'legitimate' maritime trade companies backed up by the naval force of imperial powers, whether elvan or cathayan or old world Empire or even Nehekharan. And in the Old World region specifically vampirate fleets would have been bolstered in recent decades by vampires and necromancers fleeing the collapse of Sylvania following the end of the Von Carstein wars. Harkon is already well established on the Vampire Coast at this point in the timeline, mostly active in New World waters but with a fleet already large and powerful enough to start exerting its influence in the Old Worlds seas. And the devs have already proven willing to tweak the canon timeline - it wouldn't be that huge leap to relocate Noctilis to the current era as well. That already gives you at least four proper vamprirate bloodlines/fleets to build narratives around, between the Dread Fleet, the Vampire Coast, Sartossa, and Cathay.


Again, I don't expect anything to come of this any time soon. The rumor buzz at the moment is more around Estalia / Dogs of War or Kislev as the potential next major old world developments. Or alternatively a proper second edition with a cleaned up ruleset and possibly partial range overhauls for some of the existing official factions (Nagash knows I wouldn't complain about new skeleton infantry and horses for the tomb kings). If a second edition does happen, it's anyone's guess whether the pdf legacy factions would be updated to stay playable in any official capacity. So in the /near/ term, things are much more likely to get worse for Vampire Counts playability in Old World rather than better, at least in terms of official playability. There would certainly be community efforts to keep the legacy factions playable, particularly from the Honest Wargamer crew, but I can't say whether any given local scene would be willing to play with such unofficial content.

Long term, though, I am fully convinced that Vampires will officially return to the Old World in some form or another. Whether that's good enough to you to start rebasing old models in the mean time, let alone buying new ones- whether AoS or 3rd party or what have you - is another matter entirely. Personally, if you have any interest in Tomb Kings at all, I would recommend starting there instead.

I've been putting together both Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts for old world - rebasing old fantasy models back to squares after already rebasing them to circles, and as more old models get updated in AoS more of my collection will go back to old world to live on there, which feels like a sort of homecoming. It's nice, actually. Having an 'official' army on the side has made me feel less nervous and insecure about the amount of time I've put into the 'unofficial' legacy army. While I'm sure they'll be back in some sort of official form eventually, and the people I've played against have been happy to allow community/homebrew content, at least I have an alternative option if I ever play against someone who isn't open to that sort of thing.
 
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Yes they could make a great refresh for VC as it would warrant new models so keeping that separation, and also fresh rules. Jade vamps are already in the lore and VC was one of the most popular armies previously, so it would likely financial sense.

Tomb Kings did have a great update though and there's a lot of attraction there... although pity we can't create a Nagash themed undead horde
 
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I mean... My own Tomb Kings are followers of Arkhan and through him are very much followers of the true kind of Nehekhara... but yeah there's no explicit support for it in the rules.

That could change in the future. Arkhan the Black has been a Tomb Kings special character in the past, and he's currently dead-dead in Age of Sigmar, killed in the Narrative Campaign that closed out 2nd edition. Neferata's and Mannfred's steeds were also killed off in that campaign, leading to speculation that the End Times mortarch kit was going to be retired and new bespoke AoS models released in their place. It's worth noting that, with Arkhan moving to the Ossiarch Bonereapers after their release, the Triple Mortarch kit is now one of those cross-faction dual kits that GW seems to be trying to remove from the game. OBR do have another mortarch in Katakros already, one invented specifically to fit their aesthetic, mechanical, and narrative identity. So it's within the realm of possibility for Arkhan to be retired from AoS altogether, which would theoretically open him up to be reintroduced to Tomb Kings in AoS, maybe with a new model of his classic flying four-hourse chariot incarnation, not altogether removed from the conversion I did for my Legion of Sacrament army back during the Legions of Nagash days:

84c7e93a07bdb8fa525d962ad6eb6d1f3e23340a.jpg

In the mean time, The current arkhan model, maybe converted to add terrorgheist wings, could be mounted on a 100x150mm rectangle base and fielded as a 'High Liche Priest on Bone Dragon' within the existing Tomb Kings rules, making an excellent centerpiece for a Nagash-themed Tomb Kings army. Liche-on-Dragon has been a not-uncommon build choice for monster mash Mortuary Cult armies especially, alongside a pair each of necrosphinxes and tomb scorpions, with ushabti greatbows and/or skeleton archers to fill out core requirements and add ranged support. Maybe a second high priest and/or lower level priest BSB for extra spells & heals, maybe a casket of souls for more support plus the model's cool as heck. Then again, that was before the recent core rules updates that specifically targeted both dragons and casting for some nerfs, so while the build is still doable and would look cool as heck, especially with a few extra nagashii/undead legionish conversions, I'm not sure if it's still competitively viable.

Here's a quick sketch of what that might look like:

MC monster mash [1998 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Tomb Kings of Khemri, Mortuary Cults, Open War

High Priest, Wizard [Level 4 Wizard], General, Necrolith Bone Dragon, Warding Splint, Wand of Jet, Sword of Might, Necromancy - 465
Mortuary Priest, Wizard [Level 2 Wizard], Battle Standard Bearer, Amulet of the Serpent, Necromancy - 140
5 Ushabti, Greatbows - 245
3 Necroserpents, The Terrors Below - 120
2 Tomb Swarms - 74
5 Skeleton Horse Archers - 55
5 Skeleton Horse Archers - 55
29 Skeleton Archers, Warbows, Full Command - 160
Tomb Scorpion, Ambushers, The Terrors Below - 77
Tomb Scorpion, Ambushers, The Terrors Below - 77
Necrosphinx, Envenomed sting - 200
Casket of Souls, Great weapons - 135
Necrosphinx - 195

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[Old World Builder - Army builder for Warhammer: The Old World]

And that would have been a relatively mean list a few months ago, though it certainly has room for more optimization. Again, though, not sure now how functional that list would be now. I know poison specifically has been nerfed pretty hard, so that hero priest bsb with the poison amulet in a unit of 30ish archers isn't as threatening as it used to be. But it's certainly legal to run, and with an arkhan conversion as the dragon-riding wizard general and maybe some conversions to deface the ushabti or replace their nehekharan animal-faced deity visages with leering human skulls, I'm betting it could feel pretty nagashii indeed.
 
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Square-based podcast put out a stats center episode today with stats pulled from a handful of recent events.

Data sources are somewhat limited as the competitive scene for this game is still new and developing, and there were recent rules shifts from both the core rule update and the recent matched play guide (which I forgot to mention and strongly recommend, as the core rules are very lacking in mission formats, defaulting just to 'line up your armies and beat each other up for kill points').

That said, while the data is limited, it is fairly positive for undead with Tomb Kings as the 1st most popular faction (if you add grand army, royal host, and mortuary cult together), and Vamp Counts as the 3nd most played faction (after tomb kings and warriors of chaos. 3rd most played for Vampire Counts is great both because it's a strong sign that people see their rule set as good enough to be worth playing even after the updates, and because it's a strong sign of community support and interest, and if it's sustained going forward then Specialist Team will be able to take that to corporate in support of letting them bring vampires back to Old World officially, whether as the old Vamp Counts line or reimagined as vampirates or what have you. Likewise first most played is a good sign for tomb kings, who's old world support woes came largely from a lack of player base. Being one of the launch factions for Old World, and having just a really solid ruleset and one of the stronger Arcane Journal variant armies, seems to have turned that completely around, making them one of the stand out success stories within the larger success of Old World as a whole.

Moving from representation to win rates, the undead are again doing very good. Not the top of the meta - that's Cathay coming out of the gate with a bang, though their representation rate is very low yet so win rate is likely skewed by only the most dedicated players having had time to get armies built and painted for these events. Tomb King and Vamp Count Grand Army win rates are still quite high at lower at 5th (56%) and 7th (55%) respectively, though just like Cathay's win rates are likely skewed up by their low representation the Undead are likely skewed down by their very high representations. Especially vamp counts, as the win rates for the tomb kings variant lists are split out and a fair bit lower, 52% for mortuary cult and 45% for royal host. In theory they're within the acceptable fat middle, but their 'positive win rate potential' - ie the rate of players of these factions winning more games than they lose at a given event - are pretty low, so the situation is tougher than they first appear for the Tomb Kings variant armies, which is a big swing for Mortuary Cult especially which were one of the problem armies before the core rule updates. But I don't find that to be a big problem since again the core 'grand armies' for both VC and TK are doing very, very well, and I'd much rather have the quirky & heavily restricted Arcane Journal variant armies be less powerful than the core armies rather than the reverse.

Otherwise, good results for Tomb Kings and Vamp Counts overall don't necessarily address issues of internal balance or whether particular units (eg vampire heroes) living up to people's expectations, but these numbers speak highly of the current rules for Undead armies and the strength of the undead player base in Old World, and imo that's a good sign for our present and future in the game.
 
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I don't think there's a lot of aggregate stats outside of what square based is putting out, at least not that I'm aware of, as the competitive Old World scene is still in its relative infancy. Games' only been out for a year, and official 'matched play' format & mission pack is only a few months old, before that every event was basically running it's own custom variant. There could be stuff I'm not aware of though, I've been distracted of late, only just now coming out of a month long video game coma (silksong was super good, but I've platinumed it now so I can be free until the inevitable expansions).
 
Sception are there any general results stats like there for for 40K and AoS, I see those regularly some GW which show the winrates etc but I'm not sure where to see them for The Old World?
This seems to be a useful resource:


The cathay situation in particular does look a bit dire.
 
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That's a great resource, thanks Sception!

I'll be checking on these regularly - in fact I'll create a separate thread for these that can be regularly added to (y) Have you found anything similar for Age of Sigmar?
 

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