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How do you win?

Joined
Jan 8, 2012
Messages
36
#1
So after playing my first couple of games in this new codex, im honestly considering just throwing in the towel and destroying everything with a hammer. Every game I play is just so one-sidedly frustrating that its not even fun!
So I wanted to ask, before plastic carnage ensued, How do you win with your armies?
Im a 40k guy so I'm used to having all of my units be useful in some way. maybe not always in combat, and with vampires I'm definitely used to crappy combat. The way I run my list right now in 2000 points is with a combat vampire lord who is tooled against units, but could handle himself in a challenge especially with the other tricksters shard. I also have a WK BSB, and two necromancers.
For my units, I have 2 units of 30 skeletons, 30 ghouls, 40 grave guard with BotB, 3 vargheists, 5 black knights, and a terrorgheist.

My problem is that I'm very weak magically, and despite those strong units I have won maybe two combats ever in three games. The game against the high elves an hour ago was just miserable. Mindrazor irresistibly on a horde of spearmen chewed through 25 grave guard, 3 vargheists, and a spirit host. the ensuing cr left me with my vampire, bsb, and 4 grave guard. it was ugly. I wanted to flip the table.:grave:

I'm used to every unit contributing, and though I count on skeletons losing whenever they get stuck in even with flank and rear charges Im just losing miserably. every single game. I do not, however, want to have to resort to some gimmick in order to win a fantasy game. Im not going to run a 150 unit of zombies or something stupid like that because I try and be a good sport. Im not above running the grave guard horde like a death star but it still wouldnt really be fun not caring what happened to the rest of the army and just letting them buzz through everything.

so my question ("Finally!") is how do you guys win your games. What is the deciding factor for you that puts you over the top? is it some gimmick? do you have a broken list that just infuriates everyone you play against? or are you able to take a balanced list and run it well enough that you can pull it off.

I'm new to fantasy, so my concern is that I wont be able to win in this system without some cheese. please prove me wrong, because Im honestly considering scrapping this entire army and going back to raping face with Salamanders
 
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Messages
150
#2
The thing with magic in 8th is that you cannot afford to go without in games over 1000 points... That said you don't need to go all in either. I would recommend to add a lvl 2 necromancer with a dispell scroll and that will probably turn the tide for you.

I also play combat heavy (even in the preveous book). But i never leave home without a lvl 2. The thing is that to win a battle in whfb you need to do well in at least 3/4 phases. Now movement is easy in VC since there are some nice options to force ppl in some situation. VC has strong magic, but i understand if you don't like to play caster lords. (lukcily you don't need to) And in combat VC are avarage. (Good in special/rare and poor in core, avarages to avarage). VC don't really have a shooting phase. The screams add some element, but it is only there to compensate for things you don't take. It's more reliable than magic tho..

Only played one game with the new book tho, had a ghoul king in a unit of 19 ghouls who chewed up 3 units of ogres. Had a varghulf on one flank and a unit of 10 knights on the other. The movement allowed me to choose the combats. (using dire wolves to screen / put them in a position where the oppenent has to choose to charge them and be in my charge range, or let them slip the lines so they march blok helps choosing your combats)

Fantasy has become a positional game in 8th. At least when you bring chaff. In my opinion skeleton warriors are still bad. They are only so much cheaper so they are nice cannon fodder. It's still easy to lose units of 25 in one round.

Another thing to try against elves when you fear mindrazor is to try to force him to make more difficult decisions somehow. Should i cast mindrazor on unit A or B are things you want to look for.

Otherwise try to beat his mage before you dedicate your army in combat. You can actually use vargheists for that. They eat him if he doesn't buff his unit.

I hope you got some insights from my long story.
 

The Dead of Night

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
1,084
#3
I usually play 2500 pt games which allows a bit more room for some interesting things, that being said I can say one thing that might help.

That thing is that you need to have a good plan for every unit. What is your plan for your Black Knights for example? Keeping in mind they have a low WS so only half of them will hit, your're looking at 2 wounds per turn there (more if the horses get lucky). It can't disrupt even units because it's too small. So what does it do?

vargheists are pretty weak, they are a bit of a glass cannon. You can't raise them quickly, they have comparatively low T and no save. Their real advantage is that they are offensive and can march without the general. You only have three though, so no supporting attacks and few wounds. So what is the plan here?

What is your plan for warmachines? Bats and wolves are good here.
What about redirecting? wolves are nice here.
Bat swarms add ASL which is nice for removing rerolls in HE armies

You need a cohesive army. You need to think about how the army will work together. IMO you have a list which can't hit hard (apart from the lord) and has no support or ability to set up favourable encounters.

IMO you need to work on the list, perhaps take it to the relevant forum?
 
Joined
Jan 8, 2012
Messages
36
#4
Well posting a list doesn't help if noone comments on it. But I'll use the 5 man bk unit as war machine hunters, or a ten man as a hitting unit. I used a unit of 8 against other counts and they took down 12 ghouls. The horses always kill a lot for me. The vargheists also hit hard especially when they go first. It was the first time I'd played high elves so I needed to adjust to always going last. I plan on taking a corpse cart in future games. They performed well. The thing was I wanted to know what puts you over the top.
 
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
86
#5
I would look to the movement phase first and foremost. In 40k, you can get away with mediocre movement and make up for it through luck/ good shooting. In fantasy, ALL games are won and lost in the movement phase, and it is by far the most important of the game. Remember that, and move every unit with a purpose, not simply because you can.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
212
#6
I suggest making your skeletons into a 60man unit. Either take 6 vargheists or 10 black knights, you can't just have one rank of models running around, you always have to be in atleast 2 ranks of attacks these days. Drop the bsb. Take a power stone and channeling rod on a necro. Take a scroll on the other. If you have the pts add another necro. Add magic pwr levels where you can.

As for the way that I win a battle? a few factors always come into play.

1. If my opponent makes a mistake and I capitalize upon my opportunity, I can snatch an advantage and take control of the match.
2. Winds of Magic, If I get lots of power dice, more stuff usually happens in my favor.
3. Matchups. Getting my units into fights that I believe I can win, hopefully one with a flank charge.
4. Recognizing enemy weaknesses, such as bad leadership, open flanks, lone characters, slow moving, poorly deployed etc.
5. The most important and biggest deciding factor of whether or not you win a warhammer battle is.... Luck! :slapface: If you simply have bad lucky for a few games in a row, don't let it get your down. New Army book, you gotta adapt to our new strengths and weaknesses, this takes battles upon battles to learn.

I cerntainly hope you aren't playing in a competitive environment, that type of stuff just kills the fun in trying out fun army lists and special rule combinations. The best wins I've had have been companied by a few beers and a bowl :thumbsup:

P.S. Hope you don't smash your models. My wallet would cry.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2011
Messages
24
#7
I feel your pain mate, as I've had a similar crisis after my last game with the VC.

I am a veteran High Elf player, so I wanted my next army to be something completely different, and you can't get more different than the Vamps!

My issue was the fact that I was losing CC by so much, that I would often lose the rest of the unit after CR - not giving me the chance to rez any models.

I figure though it's the same as it was when I started playing Fantasy with my HE, and it's like what drmooreflava said - the more games you play, the more used to the army you become and the more you get used to their respective strengths and weaknesses. It literally took me months before I won a game of Fantasy, and now I'm more experienced, I win more than I lose.

Keep at it, and things should get easier.
 
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Messages
150
#9
Ice Junkie said:
The thing was I wanted to know what puts you over the top.
The thing that really makes us win is a good movement phase and experience. The other things like how much magic you take is just personal prefference and experience.
 

Bravo_10

Dark Lord of Eternal Sorrow
True Blood
Joined
Jul 26, 2010
Messages
1,300
#11
Au contraire, I think we have one of the more effective armies with which to deal with High Elves in this edition. Keep in mind that, although their troops hit like a ton of bricks and will be hitting on re-rollable 3+ against virfually all of our low WS troops, they're also epic glass cannons, with virtually no defense in return. I feel that Zombies will be an excellent counter against HE in this edition, as their ASL doesn't really matter (HE will hit first anyway), and they can be raised in high enough numbers to whittle down those powerful HE combat blocks. Also, most of their units don't have magical attacks, so I've found Ethereals to be very effective against them, provided they survive the magic coming from the inevitable Archmage in your opponent's list.

With regards to 'how I win,' I think it's typically through patience. 8th edition, while slightly more luck-reliant than 7th edition Warhammer, is still a very positional game, and how your troops are arrayed on the field has a huge effect on the outcome of the game. Don't charge in with a single unit unless you're absolutely sure you can win combat and break your opponent, or if you know that he/she won't be able to respond to your charge in the corresponding turn. Keep your guys together, set up flank charges, and let the enemy come to you. Tar-pitting is something the Vampires do very well. To echo some of the former coments, experience does indeed come into play quite a bit. I didn't actually win a game until like my seventh try, but in each game I improved, getting more acquainted with my playstyle and refining my army list.

So don't give up yet! :) Things might seem tough now, but keep your chin up. Everyone makes mistakes, so keep an eye out for a few of your opponent's!
 
Joined
Aug 22, 2010
Messages
174
#12
i won my first game straight away with my new list 0.o
but then
i dont have high elve players and when i see a mage i send in cairn/hex wraiths
and skaven units in 1000 point games dont respond well to mass zombay
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,156
#14
First things first.

This book is weaker then the last one. It just is. Yeah, we have new toys, but they took away our crutches (helm of commandment, drakkenhoff, blood drinker), and our bread and butter core units(cheap, vanguarding, res over starting size ghouls), and those were what was keeping us afloat competitively after 8th came around. You can and should expect things to get harder. We're not nerfed out of existence, not by any stretch. We're nowhere near as bad as, say, ogres were in 7th edition. We're just in the mid to lowish tier for 8th ed books (which in general are far closer in power then 7th ed books), which means playing against high to mid tier armies will be an uphill battle. Doesn't mean you should scrap your units, just means you should be prepared to work harder for your wins. We're still on the pendulum back-swing from our time as the nigh unbeatable lords of 7th edition. If you can't handle that, put your vamps in storage and start a new army, the pendulum will swing back the other way in 5 or so years.


Next up, compounding this, is that we do have a brand new book, and it has kicked our crutches out from under us, so there's going to be a learning curve. This army does not present an obvious winning combo, and I for one consider that a good thing. It means we get to try out several options before settling on anything. But it also means that most of us, especially those of us with a more competitive local environment, can expect to lose more then win for the next few months as we pick ourselves back up and re-learn how to play our armies. This can be frustrating, but it's also an exciting time. Everything that was old is new again, and it keeps the game interesting. I had stopped playing vamp counts because I won every game the same way and had nothing more to learn or experience. Yeah, I've lost a few games now, but if that's the ticket cost to getting to do something new and different it's one I'm happy to pay.


With the general stuff out of the way, on to your specific list. First of all, you aren't running a list that can get by with low magic. Your zombies rely on it, your skeletons rely on it. Maybe if you were spamming black knights with some blood knights in rare you could try and cram your army down the other side's throat before they had time to react, but that's not what you're running. So the first thing I'd say is level 3 minimum. You just need a mage lord. Cheapest way is to buy a couple magic levels for your lord. If you really feel that melee only vampires is what you want, then drop the lord down to hero level and promote one of your necromancers to lord status.

Next, 8th edition wants big units. The game's just too brutal these days. 3 gheists and 5 knights is nowhere near as good as 6 gheists or 10 knights. So do that. If it were me, I'd go for the knights, as they're much better defended, but the gheists have their fans as well, they're just a bit less forgiving. Next, 30 skellies is a bit light. I'd make them one unit of 50, or maybe one of 20 (for watchtower missions) and one of 40. Do not support the skeletons in combat with other units unless you're fighting enemies with few, low strength attacks, otherwise the skellies will drag you down with them.

Finally, while I like the BSB, at 2k points I just don't think you have the points for it. I'd drop him, and then get some more drops on the table. A couple units of dire wolves if you need more core points after messing with the skellies. OR a couple pairs of fellbats, or some bat swarms. Or Spirit hosts. A couple cheap drop units is important for deployment and to help mess with the other side's movement phase.


After that, just play a few games. You list doesn't look all that bad to be honest, but again, new book, new rules, it'll take some time to suss out.
 

Mikael.K

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
2,643
#15
Im with the dead of night on this one. 8th edition is largely centred around list building. To be succesfull, one simply cant have units that doesnt contribute in any way. Another thing that is very apperent with this new book is that one really cant have everything! Those points run out very quickly and it doesnt help when you have to spend 1/4 of your points on crappy core! :innocent:

That beeing said, your list needs focus. For a fast list, consider big unit of black knights with lord and maybe a hero vamp aswell. Vargheists have no problems keeping up with them and provide good support, so a unit of 6 will pump out insane ammount of attacks and can still lose a model or two. For rares, terrorgheist. This is a fast assaultforce. You could even have fell bats or batswarms in support.

I think our new core will be based around zombies. So, for 2400pts we´ll probably see the following:

40 Zombies: standard, musican
40 Zombies: standard, musican
40 Zombies: standard, musican
20 Zombies: standard, musican
6 Dire Wolves
6 Dire Wolves
6 Dire Wolves

Why you say? For me its easy, zombies are cheap and can be raised quickly. This makes them the ideal tarpit. They are simply there to hold enemy units in place so the fast elements of the army can take them out. Skellies can do this too, but are a bit more expensive. Ghouls are simply too expensive this time around. I wouldnt expect our core to kill anything, just pin stuff in place.

If you want infantry, go for:

30 GG: FC, gw´s, banner of barrows
8 Crypt horrors: champ
Corpse cart (or two)
Mortis engine

All these units complement each other well, all while beeing easy to resurrect back into unlife. Batswarms would be ideal support for the gw wielding GG for example.

I would also like to mention the vampire lord. I go for a high level fighter supported by one or two necros in cavalry lists. Why`? Well, if you miscast you might aswell be in close combat, pulling some of the opponents models down with the blast! xD Also, a high level caster is a bit cheaper than a vamp lord + master necro. This allows you to buy the necessary equipment your lord needs to get the job done.

For the infantry list, go for a low level fighty lord and a couple of level 2 necros. This is mainly because of the mortis engine. You wont lose all that much if one of those necros blow up, your lord on the other hand...

As you see, you need to have a plan for your units. Once you have a direction (fast or infantry), focus on a couple of choices. Having a bit of everything will result in a weak list that doesnt excell in anything. Also, one more thing: chaff units are great but dont overdo it. I´ve seen lists with lots of them, but where is the units that provide kills (and that wins you the game)? My core section is already filled with chaff units so no need to have lots of them in the special section aswell! xD
 
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Messages
150
#16
I think that you better put a lord in combat than a hero. Just because of T5 and W3. (the extra attack is a nice benefit, but the other two options are so worth the point difference).

I disagree that you need a lvl 3. A 2 is nice next to a lord above 1250 points, but at 2k points you'd need a 1- lord, a 2-necro and another lvl somewhere. I'd suggest a vamp hero in another unit that can do something. IE. the lord in your gg, the necro in a bunker zombs/skellies, and the last vamp in a medium-large unit skeletons (around 30). Alternatively the vampire hero could be in a unit of ghouls for their support, or on a hellsteed assisting knights.

You then have enough magic levels to use 12 dice if you roll high for winds of magic. (you can cast 4 spells on 3 dice).

Black knights now come at the price that they should be run in units of 10 if you want them to do something. 5 can only hunt monsters/warmachines, but bats are better in warmachines and blood knights are better in monsters. (I gladly sacrifice my 250 points unit of blood knights to get a 225 point A-bomb).
 

Tawg

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Jan 16, 2012
Messages
1,132
#17
Malisteen said:
First things first.

This book is weaker then the last one. It just is. Yeah, we have new toys, but they took away our crutches (helm of commandment, drakkenhoff, blood drinker), and our bread and butter core units(cheap, vanguarding, res over starting size ghouls), and those were what was keeping us afloat competitively after 8th came around. You can and should expect things to get harder. We're not nerfed out of existence, not by any stretch. We're nowhere near as bad as, say, ogres were in 7th edition. We're just in the mid to lowish tier for 8th ed books (which in general are far closer in power then 7th ed books), which means playing against high to mid tier armies will be an uphill battle. Doesn't mean you should scrap your units, just means you should be prepared to work harder for your wins. We're still on the pendulum back-swing from our time as the nigh unbeatable lords of 7th edition. If you can't handle that, put your vamps in storage and start a new army, the pendulum will swing back the other way in 5 or so years.


Next up, compounding this, is that we do have a brand new book, and it has kicked our crutches out from under us, so there's going to be a learning curve. This army does not present an obvious winning combo, and I for one consider that a good thing. It means we get to try out several options before settling on anything. But it also means that most of us, especially those of us with a more competitive local environment, can expect to lose more then win for the next few months as we pick ourselves back up and re-learn how to play our armies. This can be frustrating, but it's also an exciting time. Everything that was old is new again, and it keeps the game interesting. I had stopped playing vamp counts because I won every game the same way and had nothing more to learn or experience. Yeah, I've lost a few games now, but if that's the ticket cost to getting to do something new and different it's one I'm happy to pay.

Next, 8th edition wants big units. The game's just too brutal these days. 3 gheists and 5 knights is nowhere near as good as 6 gheists or 10 knights. So do that. If it were me, I'd go for the knights, as they're much better defended, but the gheists have their fans as well, they're just a bit less forgiving. Next, 30 skellies is a bit light. I'd make them one unit of 50, or maybe one of 20 (for watchtower missions) and one of 40. Do not support the skeletons in combat with other units unless you're fighting enemies with few, low strength attacks, otherwise the skellies will drag you down with them.
Made a few snips, but I just want to say, I really appreciate your post. It puts my rage in a bit better of a perspective; I've only played two games so far (Twice with the VCs, one pre, one post new book) Both against a friends lizardmen around 1-1.5k pts each, and he has more or less blown me out of the water. It's actually quite rage inducing, even considering that I go into warhammer assuming I will lose (I have a much higher ratio of losses to wins).

One thing I'll say I really am struggling with this time around, is the concept of giant units. It irks the hell out of me that units need to be like 40-50+ to be considered most of the time. The last game I played against my friend I had 2x 20 Skele, and I just really dislike that units need to be in such strength to /mean/ anything.

It's one thing that they are more efficient, but added to that is the fact that if you don't completely mop a unit off the board, you don't get VP for it at all. That is just outrageous when it can be so hard to sometimes even make a dent in them!

But I digress.. and thanks for the post, it's nice to have someone remind me that losses aren't the end of the game.. *Grumblegrumble*AtleastIstillpaintbetter*Grumblegrumble*
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,156
#18
I feel you on the giant units thing. It's one or the annoying results of the eighth edition rules and is an especially bad sign for the future of the game - since it seems designed to milk some extra money out of existing players at the cost of placing an extremely high barrier in front of any potential new players. If the makers of the game have actively chosen to abandon growing the fanbase in favor of milking the existing players, that is not going to work out well at all.

But regardless, they've decided to put skeletons and zombies in the 'tarpit' category in terms of points and stats, and that means you need huge units. Ghouls are barely better, and certainly overpriced. 8 points was too cheap for 7th ed ghouls, but despite their stats remaining the same, 8th ed ghouls are not 7th ed ghouls - no vanguard, no res over starting limit, no helm of commandment. The designer got it right with grave guard - the problem that made them so ubiquitous was the overabundance of available buffs - knock out a few of the key ones and they're fine basically as they were. Why they didn't treat ghouls the same way is beyond me.


So don't get me wrong, I share some of your frustrations, but it's not all bad and its not the end of the world.

As for lizardmen and high elves in particular, these are difficult armies for us, with strong magic (particularly strong dispelling), and solid infantry. I don't have easy answers on how to beat them, and I don't think there are going to be any in this book. It's just a matter of practice, and trying different things until something sticks.

I do think you either need to up your overall speed (minimize core, add more black knights, stick the lord in with them), or up your magic abilities (more caster levels on lord, maybe a mortis engine). You can get by with less magic, but not if you're slogging across the board at infantry speed - you'll need to get through a couple invocations to make up the casualties you take before you even reach combat.

You also need some cheap drops - dire wolves or fell bats or, my favorite, individual spirit hosts - regardless of what you do with your list. These guys can do wonders when it comes to securing an advantageous deployment, and can be very disruptive during the game. With your regular opponents, I'd really recommend the spirit hosts, as they won't get brushed off the board by a few arrows or blowdarts.
 

Zephyr

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Messages
2,523
#19
Glad I'm not the only one bothered by the giant units. I seriously hate them. Ive got my Skaven for that and not my VC!
But with instability and big enemy units gaining steadfast it leaves you with little choice alas.

My skeleton units will now go up with ten models for every 500 total army points; 25 in 1K, 35 in 1.5K and so on with a necro nearby to raise more. I've already seen lists with units of 60 in 1K though...ridiculous.
I miss my four or five smaller and much more maneuverable units. Seems every army is a horde army nowadays. On the plus side; it allows for some nice unit fillers. I seriously don't know anyone who could or would buy five boxes of skeletons in one go to simply get one unit.

I know how rage inducing it can be to lose a lot of games but you will probably loose many more battles coming to grip with not only the new army book(versus some now very strong army books which haven't been updated yet) but also your play style.
I for the life of me cannot play with an otherwise perfectly good army list if the style doesn't suit me. What others see as killer lists might not work for you.
Obviously there are some basics you will see in every list but, and especially with the new book, there is a plethora of choices and finding the right combo might take a while.

Malisteen gave some excellent advice in here but to butt in; I'd personally go for black knights instead of vargheists. The last hit harder but die off way too fast and only heal one wound whereas the knights heal normally in this edition, compared points wise with survivability bk's are a no brainier IMO.
Take some dire wolves with them for fun, they won't kill anything but are good used in concert with black knights.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,156
#20
Vargheists are a glass hammer, certainly. Very fragile. But they hit a lot harder then blackknights, and they're faster, and they can march on their own, so it's not a completely one sided decision.

Given lizardmen and high elves as opponents, though, I'd second the suggestion of dropping the vargheists in favor of more black knights, at least at this points value. Both high elves and lizardmen have access to a fair bit of small arms fire, and I think that will be a real weakness of the gheists.

Black Knights in sufficient numbers (10 to 15) with lances and barding serve a sort of dual role - on the charge they have the hitting power of a real hammer unit, but after that charge their more of an anvil, able to grind it out against most opponents for a somewhat neutral combat res, meaning that they like to have another heavy hitter around to help them out if they get stuck, or failing that a strong melee character to tip the balance in their favor.

As such, Black Knights look to be a decent choice for a center of the line unit in faster armies, and I look forward to trying them out in that role.
 

Zephyr

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Messages
2,523
#22
Malisteen said:
Black Knights in sufficient numbers (10 to 15) with lances and barding serve a sort of dual role - on the charge they have the hitting power of a real hammer unit, but after that charge their more of an anvil, able to grind it out against most opponents for a somewhat neutral combat res, meaning that they like to have another heavy hitter around to help them out if they get stuck, or failing that a strong melee character to tip the balance
Never looked at them that way but you are right. Thing is that I prefer not to add a character to them as I use their ethereal movement for out maneuvering and I'd lose out on that.

Still it is a nice option as a "delivery" and shows how versatile they are.
Im thinking about fielding two ten strong units myself and use vargheists in numbers of 6 in a 2K+ list.
 
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Messages
150
#23
Zephyr said:
Never looked at them that way but you are right. Thing is that I prefer not to add a character to them as I use their ethereal movement for out maneuvering and I'd lose out on that.
you can still add wight king characters if you need their movement. If they carry a great weapon they still dish out some highish str attacks each round to keep a nice CR each combat. Not very strong for a centre unit of knights, but strong on the flank.
 
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
15
#24
I don't know what your meta game is like at your stores but mine means that you at least need a lv 4 wizard in your army to stay competitive in the magic phase, magic plays such an important roll in 8th that it is mandatory, the mortis engine also helps a lot with this supremacy. I don't think that taking a I also don't know why zombies are so popular, the way that crumbling works along with the new invocation is that it favors better elite units compared to tar pits. Even with 2d6+ lv your units of 40 zombies will be crushed by a dedicated combat units like WoC,you lose more models for every model you lose combat by, the objective should be survivability and the ability to tie combat rather then tie up units with lots of bad models. Skeletons are good because of their 6+ parry save and fear banner makes them survivable, ghouls are good because of their actual combat abilities tied in with their high toughness. In reality we shouldn't be tar pitting we should be using our core as lord/hero/special/rare delivery systems, our lords, specials, and rares are absolutely devastating in combat and the objective of the core choices should to be not to give up combat res. All zombies are good for is raising in the tower imo, for watch tower. I cant expect anything combat related from them even in huge units.

I also don't know why people complain about movement, all you need to do is deploy your army well and most of the time there are turn 2 charges anyways, marching is good for your main body of troops, but most of your specials and rares that you want to go fast already move 8, it helps new players so they don't overextend with any one of their units. You also have access to vargulfs too, they are amazing at marching ahead and handling war machines, small units, medium units, and flankers. At a cheap relatively cheap cost too (obviously not compared with the war hydra but come on, that thing is broken). You should be relying on overrun and charges for movement turn 3 onward.
 
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
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#25
Fenris240B said:
Pladvoncarstein said:
welcome to life of undead warriors we cheese better then anyone so start grating. xD
I disagree. no one out cheeses the skaven horde.
you must not heard of the Greedfist cheese from Ogre's....stupid ruling on greedfist in my opinion


As for winning many had said it already you must find the new strengths in our book....in last edition i played heavy magic on my armies lv 3 lord MOBA, FL lore of vampires, and 1-2 other casters one with MOBA. i won 4 out of 5 games, now I think the new book favors combat heavy vsmpire lords. and elite armies(armies built with minimum core and alot of specials). lastly corpse carts are worth taking now use that vigor mortis to yor advantage make sure you know which spells are augments
 
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