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how d'you beat dragon ogres?

Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
84
#1
It seems like they'd be a really hard foe to beat-fear causing, and therefore immune to fear, and with high enough damage potential that they can deal with most anything in combat. I'm not talking about tarpitting them here, either. the only viable way, it seems to me, it either a DoW giant, or a flank charge from a hefty black knight unit. also, since killing blow doesn't work on them, they'll chew through wights.

any ideas?
 

Voltaire

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
2,763
#3
Yes, try and beat Dragon Ogres on simple combat resolution and watch as a flurry of strength 7 attacks make the better part of your day. Hitting them in the flank or rear with zombies is utterly useless as they normally attack back and getting two or three kills is nothing for a unit of Dragon Ogres.

Dragon Ogres are superb as an alternative to cavalry, though they follow the same rules on how to beat them except they are lightly armoured. Dragon Ogres have a decent Strength but not much in the way of toughness, weapon skill or armour. Try hitting them with spirit hosts, or panicking them. Despite their size, the need to take leadership tests still hurts them sufficiently.

The new Watchman has an example of this in it.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#5
I'm not sure about Ghouls- you need to roll 4 poison hits to kill one of them, which is unlikely, and in return you'll face 9 attacks hitting on 3 and killing on 2.

Mind you, at 76 points a pop, whaddya expect?

I've also used a Banshee before, if you can ensure a BSB is nearby then just take your time and scream them to death.

Sneaky trick: unit of Black Knights with full command. "Accidentally" expose a flank, with the Champion the only model. They'll almost certainly charge in and chop the Champion to pieces and have a CR of 2. You will have standard, outnumber, musician and win by one. Risky, especially if an enemy BSB or General is nearby, but you can always set up a flank countercharge instead.

(20 Zombies + Standard in the flank will actually win by at least 3 every time!)
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
228
#6
Right first off you you need to think smart vs that sort of muscle:

we have many ways to neutralise them if not beat them

1 - spirt hosts will stall them forever as they are the same us and we could even win with a cheeky wound - costs about the same

2 - a full unit of zombies can beat them or at least tie them up - cost can varry depends if a starting unit or raised

3 - whats wrong with a bit of redirecting? A unit of direwolves set at an angle so they get hit and the ogres are facing away from the fight? - much cheaper than the ogres

4 - Black knights with a thrall might hit hard enough to kill 1 and thus get hit back less and win - cost about the same

All these are without much thought put into it so will have flaws and counters but we can win by not fighting them just taking them out of the equation of the rest of the enemy army
 

Voltaire

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
2,763
#7
The Dire Wolf answer is the one which gets used against me the most and it is severely annoying having to spend extraneous amounts of time manoeuvring the Dragon Ogres back into the position I wanted them to be in. This normally leads to a turn or two wasted and a basic waste of points.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#8
Well you should support your Dragon Ogres with another unit that can take care of the Dire Wolves for you- it'll still delay the Dragon Ogres but only by a turn ;)
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
136
#9
Voltaire said:
Yes, try and beat Dragon Ogres on simple combat resolution and watch as a flurry of strength 7 attacks make the better part of your day. Hitting them in the flank or rear with zombies is utterly useless as they normally attack back and getting two or three kills is nothing for a unit of Dragon Ogres.

Dragon Ogres are superb as an alternative to cavalry, though they follow the same rules on how to beat them except they are lightly armoured. Dragon Ogres have a decent Strength but not much in the way of toughness, weapon skill or armour. Try hitting them with spirit hosts, or panicking them. Despite their size, the need to take leadership tests still hurts them sufficiently.

The new Watchman has an example of this in it.

Please explain how they can beat 3 ranks, outnumber, flank, maybe even banner & musician (that's SEVEN wounds needed to not lose!);)

Zombies in the flank is a sure winner, dragon ogres will flee in 1 turn, maybe 2 (because they do not fear our zombies)

Zombies in the flank is a far more reliable tactic than, to example, panicking them. However, banshees should make them fear us for real?:tongue:
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#10
Anyone who thinks that getting flank charges is a "reliable" tactic either plays very bad opponents or cheats ;) But you are correct, if you can get a flank charge with Zombies, then you've basically beaten them :)
 

DarkHand6

Grave Guard
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
244
#11
i found that BKs in the front worked..... once

but lots of S6 attacks, the BoB and a thrall or WL with a lance will normally do the buisness - flank obviously preferalbe.

5 BKs with command and a Vamp - about 300~350
5 dire wolves to set up the flank charge - 50

3 dragon ogres - 230ish

as long as you set it up quick - 1st turen if you get it, then the knights can easily move on later. Probably the best way although the SH is good, and the Banshee could work if you dont mind imobilising the BSB to keep her alive
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
188
#12
IMHO it's hard to get a flank charge, but there are some chances:
1. Raise a new unit on enemy flank with the IoN. Charge with Vanhels' DM.
- that will not work if you don't have the upper hand in the magic phase.
2. Maneouvre one of your units in such way that it will force the enemy to expose his flank to a charge of another of your units, IF he decides to charge. The IF is big, though, but if the enemy loses a turn of movement due to hesitation, maybe you'll be able to reach his flank in another way.
- generally that will require more units than the enemy has, and faster ones
- maybe some units will have to be sacrificed to fullfill the role of bait
- spirit hosts and banshees can stop DO's but they can't break them I'm afraid (well 5 SH bases on 4 DO's do it actually ;-) )
- it's hard to get DO's to charge ethereals when it's obvious they don't have magic weapons and in this case
can add to CR only by outnumbering ethereals
3. Move your unit to position on enemy flank by Vanhels' DM and charge with another VDM.
- requires a lot of magic power and luck when rolling for spells
4. Use something even bigger than DO's. Vampire Count on winged nightmare, on their flank?
- vampires have so many uses :> that you'll quickly run out of them if they're supposed to do everything ;-)
 
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