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How to defeat the pesky dwarves ?

Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
178
#1
Hi all,
I've read a lot on this site and it helped me gain the advantage in numerous games (I'm new to the game and I've played my first game against lizardmen (major defeat for me), my second agains Brets (massacre for me) and after that, I started looking for advice on this site and on the net. I won against the Lizzie (major win), lost a minor defeat in a team game (me, Empire and Wood elves against Brets/Lizardmen and Orcs & Gob). After that I've won straight all my games : Me and Lizzie agains Orcs and Gobo and Dwarves (major win for us), Me against Gobo (enormous massacre for the gobo :tongue:) and sunday, me against Tomb Kings (massacre for the TK).

So, I've started to control my army better, know my adversaries and all. Still, tomorrow I'm going to play against the Dwarf army and i'm very reluctant.

It's going to be a 2000 pts game and I know he always put 2 cannons and an organ gun, all with magic runes on them. It costs him a lot, but its terrible artillery...
He also puts lots of those resistant dwarf gunner and longbeard.
On the other side, It's a bit of all his eggs on the warmachine and he isn't strong on the magic (but very strong in dispell with the rune priests and some artifacts...)
HAbitually is the kind of guy who doeasn't even march, he stays in defense, shot to death and waits for the ennemy to come to him...

What should I do against that ? I read the topic on the tactics against dwarves, but I thought there was not enough interesting advice in it.

I thought at first to use ethearal, but the warmachines are going to destroy them (magic).
I'v also thought of using the Flying circus with the strigoi, but I know it's impossible for me to reach his warmachines in one turn (maybe if I danse macabre, but isn't it a n enormous risk ?).

The armies I habitually play are Von Carstein, Necromencers or Blood dragons.

I don't have a lot of wolves (only 6), I own easily near 20 Black Knights, 20 Grave Guards, 4 spirit hosts, 10 fell bats, 38 ghouls, 2 Banshee (not very good agains dwarf), Black coach (strenght 7 hit... woach) and innombrable skeleton and zombies. I also own a Blood dragon (or other caracther) on Zombie (or nightmare) dragon...

I would really like to know what you all would do against those pesky dwarves. Wich bloodline is the most suited, which troops, which tactics ?

Thanks all for your help.
 

Arion

Vampire Lord
True Blood
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
3,414
#2
Well is youre going to take magic take lots of it and no dispel stuff(dwarves dont have magic).Try and use alot of fodder to absorb the enemy firpower.I would use a BD count+3 necros as heros since you need magic and atleast one unit which can actually kill.Ghouls as skirmishers might be good and try and use that GG unit. You can use the 20 Bk N in units of five(he bloody well cant shoot them all) and use them as support.

All i can think of now.
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
5,444
#3
I'd take your fell bats in units of 5, wolves (I'd put them in a unit of 6) and I'd put the VC wolf form thrall in here. Anything you can to knock out those war machines; one hit with any of these units will generally send a war machine crew auto fleeing (outnumber to start with so +1 CR; just need to do a single wound or so to knock them out and make them autoflee).

Dwarves have those damn Thunderer's which will make your GG and skeleton's AS at 6+; plus dwarves have a lot of Great Weapons which do the same thing. If you decide on taking GG, I'd think about taking halberds instead of shields to get through their T4. I've found ghouls good against hammerers, but againts big blocks of dwarves... honestly, I haven't found much good. With their WS4 T4, they hit us on 3+, wound often enough that it's tough to beat them in CR, and even then they have runes for everything. I know next game I'm going to test if a unit is immune to fear before engaging with my GG; dwarves with that standard are as good at attrition as we are, if not better!

Maybe some more experienced people can help more.
 
Joined
Nov 22, 2007
Messages
48
#4
Use the bats on the warmachines and dont bother with wolves untill you have 3 units of 5 as one unit will get shot down to easily. Take two units of 10 knights if you can and use cover to get them on the flanks. Once the warmachines are tied up by the bats (Turn 2 ) the rest of his shooting wont be to bad as you can keep raising the skeles/zombies back up, Ensure you have strong magic, Once in combat overwhelm him with skeles/zombies and have a vampire in there to ensure you win the combats. Take a cursed book so instead of hitting on a 3+ he will need a 4+, this will help you win the combats. By now the knights will be in position and you can try and roll up his lines.

Also if he takes slayers get the ghouls into combat with them, massed poisened attacks will kill the slayers off quite fast.

To0 bad the new book isnt out yet with terrain ignoring black knights so you can't use the cover/woods even more to your advantige
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
178
#5
At 2000 points, I could only have 3 units of 5 BK, because it's maximum four rare and I already have the GG.

I'm starting to think about some army lists. I was supposed to play tomorrow, but the game is going to be in the week-end finally (job and school are a bad combination...)

I will surely post tomorrow afternoon. Hope to see some others advices.

I will also try to start the hame buy breaking up the board with woods, use tall woods that will take away some LOS. Next, I will use two groups of fell bats so that in two turns yI will be able to hoope them from deployment to hiding to charging his cannons (I'l have to be careful as to dont make my bat units to large (3 ? Or 5 ?) as if he castles up I will need to be able to fit my entire unit in between his foot troops and artillery. I almost dont worry about artillery any more as a fear causing unit of flyers really socks it to them.)

I may be going Von Carstien to summon wolves, as it will really piss off my dawrf collegue when they show up and charge and auto run...
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
228
#6
Well if he is castleing up you are in need of help. Swamp him with too many fast targets - wolves, ghouls, bats etc so that anything his war machines can do is limited while your ranked units move up behind, Strigio summon ghouls is nice to get past the castle lines as well.

Once th ewar machines are taken care of raise and fear will see you through. Also once his guns are gone he will be forced out to fight you and then you will have the advantage..

Good luck
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
770
#7
Having faced many gunlines in the last year and mastered the art of beating them I shall give you some advice born from experience.
Firstly as LF says, give him so many quick moving targets that he wont be able to get them all, you need to get more wolves, I always take 4 units of 5 in 2k, always! Mix them in woth lots of ghouls, and fell bats and storm those guns, when you reach them, even if you dont kill them, CC stops them shooting. In the mean time pile your R&F forwards, when in range ION ninja zombies behind his gunlines, remember you dont need LOS for this.
A GW wielding Thrall in wolf from is a must, give him the Flayed Hauberk and some wolves for company, get him heading for the Organ gun...
As for magic, take lots, Count Lvl2, Thrall and 2 level 2 Necros, take the Periapt and steal his unused Power dice, also take The Book of arkhan. If you roll Dance as a spell keep it, you need speed.
As for your R&F, take skellies, 2 small zombie bunkers for your necros, increase them with ION, always cast that first each turn, he will most likely let it through to save his runes and DD for your big spells, also use the book early on, this will throw him.
Take BK, 2 units of 6, one on each flank, shield with wolves and ghouls early on.
DO NOT take GG, they will die, you can not raise them, and their AS will fail against all his guns, stick with raisable skellies.
I would take 2 banshees, you only need to roll an 8 to kill one dwarf crew member, use cover to get them in range and scream at the crews. If his magic war machines fire at them, then great, he's wasting a big shot on one figure, more time for your wolves etc to get their. Remember he cant make his organ gun magical, so just stay out of LOS of his cannons. If you get the chance, get the Banshees in to CC with the crew, even a 10 man unit of Thunderers. You only need to wound once to draw with their outnumber CR, if you lose a wound however, dont panic, you can still ION heal her.
If they are in CC, they cant shoot, so getting there is the key.... So first things first get more wolves, use proxy models if you have to.....
I hope I have been of some help, good luck and let us know how you get on...
 
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
16
#8
Fully agree with Fat Olaf & I have both dwarves and vampires and always find it easier for the vampires to win in that match up. You need to accept that if his shooting is way above average then you are going to struggle, but with average success on the dwarf shooting you should be on to a good thing. Last time I did the match up I faced one cannon, one stone thrower, one organ gun, one gyrocopter, two bolt throwers, 10 thunderers, 10 cross bows and the anvil with a runelord but still came out on top even with his shooting coming out on top.

Just one other tip - don't rank your black knights up - I tend to use 6 or 7 in one rank and it works fine as he can only generally kill one at a time providing you are careful with deployment and movement.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#9
I prefer the first list, it's more fun. Remember Zombies are 10+ and you can't put Book of Arkhan and Black Periapt on the same Necromancer. Sadly the fact you have no Ward Save on your general could mean he dies on turn one with just a couple of unlucky rolls; remember you won't have much need for Aura of Dark Majesty with so many Ghouls and Fell Bats... perhaps the von Carstein Ring would be helpful in this case. Wolf Form Thrall I would start with infantry then zoom over to Dire Wolves on first turn or stick around and charge out the unit at some nice warmachine target...
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
178
#10
OUps, I deleted the list while I was editing, here it is again...

So that's what I'm going to play !

Von Carstein Count (311)
- Aura of Dark majesty
- cursed book
- Summon wolf
- Additional hand weapon
(With the zombies)

Von Carstein Thrall (134)
- Wolf Form
- Flayed Hauberk
- GW
(With the zombie to start or with the wolves ? CAn he be with zombies and afterward join the dire wolves pack ? )

Von Carstein Thrall (148)
- Summon wolf
- Heavy armor + shield+ barded nightmare (2+)
- Sword of battle (+1 attack)
(with War banner BK)

Wight Lord (126)
- Sword of king
- Heavy armor + shield of mousillon
- Barded nightmare
(Armor save 1+ and Killing blow on 5 and 6)
(with Banner of Barrows BK)

5 x Fell Bats (100)

5 x Fell Bats (100)

6 x Dire wolves (60)

9 x Black Knight (294)
- Barding
- Musician + standard
- Banner of Barrows

7 x Black Knight (240)
- Barding
- Standard + musician + champion
- War banner

28 x Zombies (183)
- Musician + standard

5 x ghoul (40)
5 x ghoul (40)
5 x ghoul (40)
5 x ghoul (40)
9 x ghoul (72)
9 x ghoul (72)

PD = 3
DD = 3

2000 pts

Ghouls are going to take cover and skirmish. Fell bats and wolves are going war machine hunting. The block of zombie is going in the melee with the BK charging in the flanks.

My only doubts are:
- IS my count well protected without a ward save ?
- Were do I put my wolf form thrall ?
- Do I have enough zombies ?
- Should I had barding on my twos BK units ?

Leave your comments. I'm going to pass tomorrow morning.

I also had another list :

1997 pts
Necrarch Vampire Count (340)
-lvl 2 (3)
-Nehekara's Noble Blood
-Unholy Cynosure
-Master of the Black Arts
-Black Periapt
(With the zombies)

1st necro(150)
- Lvl 2
- Cursed book

2nd necro (125)
- Lvl 2
- Book of Arkhan


3rd necro (150)
- lvl2
- Power familiar

3 x Fell Bats (60)

3 x Fell Bats (60)

6 x Dire wolves (60)

10 x Black Knight (319)
- Barding
- Musician + standard
- Banner of Barrows

5 x Black Knight (139)
- Standard + musician

10 x zombies (necrobunker) (60)

20 x Skeletons (225)
-Full command
- Light armor

29 x Zombies (174)
- Standard + musician

5 x ghoul (40)
5 x ghoul (40)
5 x ghoul (40)

Pd = 12(13) + book of Arkhan

DD = 8 (9)

So, I’m going to deploy my troops in something like a horn formation in the start:
-Bats- -Ghouls- -Ghouls- (for screening) -Bats-
-Dire Wolves-Black Knights-Zombies-Skeletons- Black Knights-Ghouls-
(Banner) Necrobunker

With this MAhic heavy list, my only real concern is about my general… He doesn’t have any protection besides the look-out sir !

What would be best ?
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
178
#11
Now, to answer EvC.
I forgot the rule about arcane items, thanks for the hint !
As for the army, I prefer the first list me too.
You said the Aura wasn't important, but I took it for the ghouls, because I wanted them to use my general leadership... But, on the other way, loosing some ghouls is not really troublesome. So I could scrap the Aura. But I wan't to keep the summon wolf. Because if I only have onve vamp that summons, it won't be enough (I have a tremendous bad luck with the dices sometimes... I won't take the chance to invoke only one wolf).
On this topic, I have a side question, can I summon all the wolves in on eunit ? For exemple, my count summons 2 wolves and my thrall rwo other, can I make a unit of four appear ?
I also really love the cursed book. The only problem is that when keeping the cursed book and summon wolf, it costs me 75 point. I only have 25 left for protection and the ring of the night is 30... But I love the CB ! :tongue:
What should I scrap ?

PS. THe game I was supposed to play this morning has been deleyed to wednesday because there is an enormous snowstorm out there... :( ON the good side, I have more time for preparing my list and units.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#13
I don't think he intends to cast anything in his von Carstein list, which is a fair enough way to play.

Good point about the Ghouls, forgot they'd need leadership as well. You won't be able to combine your multiple Summon Wolves abilities to create one big unit sadly- and I'm not sure how effective units of 1-3 wolves will be at attacking Dwarf warmachines anyway (especially if they're entrenched).
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
178
#14
Thanks a lot EvC. So I decided to change the list and make it more deadly. MY count is also a lot more protected. Tell me what you think about that :

And heres the other list... I'm really hesitant about wich one I should take...

Von Carstein Count (323)
- Sword of Might (or GW or additional hand weapon ?)
- Cursed book
- Ring of the Night
- Nightmare + barding
(With the skeletons)

Von Carstein Thrall (134)
- Wolf Form
- Flayed Hauberk
- GW
(With the skeletons to start or with the wolves ? CAn he be with skeletons and afterward join the dire wolves pack ? )

Von Carstein Thrall (145)
- Walking Death
- Heavy armor + Lance+ barded nightmare (1+)
- Enchanted shield
(with War banner BK)

Wight Lord (126)
- Sword of king
- Heavy armor + shield of mousillon
- Barded nightmare
(Armor save 1+ and Killing blow on 5 and 6)
(with Banner of Barrows BK)

3 x Fell Bats (60)

3 x Fell Bats (60)

6 x Dire wolves (60)

9 x Black Knight (294)
- Barding
- Musician + standard
- Banner of Barrows

6 x Black Knight (224)
- Barding
- Standard + musician
- War banner

27 x skeletons (265)
- Full command
- Light armor

5 x ghoul (40)
5 x ghoul (40)
5 x ghoul (40)
5 x ghoul (40)
9 x ghoul (72)
9 x ghoul (72)

PD = 3
DD = 3
2000 pts

I finally took out the summoning wolves and put walking death (with war banner)…
I thought of changing my zombies for skeletons to add additional protection for my count (with the skeleton champion) and I put him on a steed for the armour save and additional movement if needed.
What is best, zombies or skeletons against dwarves?
I also reduced the fell bats to three, for better manoeuvrability. But will it be enough to destroy or at least block the war machines or shall I bring 5 to be sure?
Can the thrall in wolf form join and charge with dire wolves in the same turn ?

Thank you all for your advices !

I'm so eager to see the face of the Dwarf player when he will see that I don't have any magic. I'm sure he is all boasted in dispell scrolls and all because I'm habitually in the 9 PD.
Ahahah, I'm only going to cast on IoN per turn with 2 dices... And the other one will be lost for the dispell because the dwarf doesn't have any magic.
 
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