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I must declare my vampiric powers?

Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
314
#1
Can any of you please tell me where I can found a rule that allows me to keep secret the vampiric powers until I use them?
The same for magic items.

On my last game my oponent just want to know if I had any magic items or powers before the battle and when I said that this kind of stuff are "secret" until use, he asks me for a rule that allow me to do that. Unfortunatly I found no one, so my better answer was "is the way I always have played".
Now I have doubts about what a player can keep secret and what not. Can you help me?
 

Kalandros

Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Nov 27, 2008
Messages
835
#2
There are no written rules nor for magic items as far as I know.
You reveal stuff when they are used, you are not entitled to tell your opponent anything beyond the type of unit and its equipment - what you SEE is what you GET.

You do not see powers - even some of the obvious ones - until used.
Thus he does not get to know what powers or magic items you have.

That's what prevents people from knowing what you have.

Ethereal is sort of obvious if you put him in an ethereal unit - you have to declare your vamp is ethereal.
 
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
314
#3
And what about other options that are not equipment, like marks of chaos?
Can a player keeps the masks of his units/characters secret?
 

Kalandros

Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Nov 27, 2008
Messages
835
#4
I think its safe to assume that Marks are part of every unit's display.
There's no "closet-worshipper" in a chaos army haha.

To me, its simple, if its in the unit's entry (where the point costs and options are listed) - you reveal it. If it refers to another section (Powers, Gifts and Items) then its revealed when its used.

Marks are bought on the option list, not in any other section.
Items, Gifts, Powers, etc are bought in their own section.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#6
It doesn't really say regarding magic items one way or the other in the rulebook, only that equipment must be modeled. But there also exists magic items that reveal powers- if nothing was secret, there'd be no point for them to exist. A lot of people still play open list, if your opponents insist then there's not much you can do about it if they won't listen. One way is to ask them for a copy of their army list before every game, and then go over it meticulously with their army book. They'll probably get sick of it in no time, especially when you work out all their tricks so easily :D
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2009
Messages
70
#7
Knowing every item in each others lists kind of wrecks the game. Its more fun guessing wether or not your enemy has the Book of Arkhan or the Blade of Realities etc... Its part of what makes the game tactical. Without secracy how would we ever get off a late 5-6th turn Hand of Dust. No player would allow that to go off.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#8
It can be really beneficial to Vampire Counts though. I just read a tournament report where they played open lists, and so in every game the guy knew exactly which enemies had magic attacks (almost none, easy for his Wraiths), and which had S7 (again, almost none, good for his Coach). But I think it does detract from the game a fair bit, personally.
 

Yanda

Black Knight
Joined
Mar 7, 2010
Messages
376
#9
I cant take the hand of dust anymore, my friends just wait till the end of my magic phase with 3 dice left and let me get off everything else which is mostly IoN and then they wait for whatever tricks I have up my sleeve, be it hand of dust, book of arkhan or something else tricky. Also with the hand of dust you basically need to dedicate a character thats going to do nothing but be armored and carry around the hand of dust. After seeing great success with the Hand ive left it out of my army list a few games and even people I havent taken the hand of dust against seem to wait with there dispel dice till the end waiting for it.
 

Onikaigo

Vampire Lord
True Blood
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
3,607
#10
I really dislike playing open lists.

As stated above, it takes away from the tactical nature of the game. Nobodies intel is so good that they'd know everything that every character/unit was equipped with before a battle. The only thing I clarify is weapons; is this unit using halberds or Great weapons? Are those bows poisoned?

As far as magic items go, I have my list written down before the game, and reveal items as they're used. If they question me, I pull out my list and show them. And typically dare them to read my handwriting.
 
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
218
#11
hmm ya I would agree with everyone else on this matter and that vamp powers are revealed when used. hopefully they change that stupid rule in 40k eventually:rolleyes:
 

Trevy the Great

Vampire Progenitor
True Blood
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
8,386
#12
Playing a closed list - certainly, you are under no pressure to reveal your powers at all, and like magic items they can, and often should, be kept secret, however all basic equipment should either be modeled on the models or at least explained to your opponent. With open lists - you absolutely need to clarify the upgrades and items that your models have.
If you have any doubt whether your opponent expects you to reveal your list, you should take it up with them. Generally gaming groups, clubs, and tournaments will state clearly in rules or a player's packet whether lists are open or closed.
 

midean

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
1,098
#13
I prefer to play with closed list also. Takes all the mystery out of the game if you know who has what and where. I usually make up 2 list. One with all the mundane items they have and even some Vamp powers that are easily apparent, ie level increases and such. When you generate PD it is rather obvious. And the rules don't say anything either way......:clown:
 

Trevy the Great

Vampire Progenitor
True Blood
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
8,386
#14
I really prefer open lists myself.
I find that when you know what you are up against, it allows you to play your army a lot more intelligently rather than having entire units obliterated simply because said character had 'x'. I think that open lists can help reduce a lot of the tense moments that come from these sorts of situations. Another problem that I have come across in many closed lists is simple cheating or forgetfulness. Too many times I have played an opponent whose 'Lord has a 0+ armor save', realizing at the end of the game that that player took multiple Magic Armors, or players who use four Dispel Scrolls while only playing for two. If two people look over the army list, there is a much greater chance of reducing the mistakes made from in.
 

Sanai

Stylish Deviant
True Blood
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
5,229
#15
I think a really knowledgable third party could look over army lists of players. That way it can be ensured that lists are legal, without ruining the fog of war.
 
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
419
#16
I find it helps to let the opponent know about the equipment, but this is optional.
And in my case, i dont go for a "standard" eqiuipment scheme for my VC charcters, so equipment isnt usually modeled on. Where i play, if its in the list, its on the model, even if it isnt.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
238
#17
Questioner said:
I find it helps to let the opponent know about the equipment, but this is optional.
And in my case, i dont go for a "standard" eqiuipment scheme for my VC charcters, so equipment isnt usually modeled on. Where i play, if its in the list, its on the model, even if it isnt.
same for me, some equipment is modeled, like great weapons and such where possible but everything else is on the character if its on the list
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
34
#18
You don't have to say what items you have unless it says in the desciption of the item things like the oath stone as the unit becomes the stone bearers.
 
Joined
Jun 10, 2009
Messages
168
#19
My mates and I tend to work off a "Tell them what they should be able to see" rule (unless we're playing open lists) so if they ask about a magic item I might tell them that I'm not revealing anything but that that Vampire is holding his sword with two hands or my Dark Elf hero's halberd has a slight reddish tinge to it (ie. Crimson Death)
 
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