Islam in a Catholic world

[Master Vampire]

I've been doubting if I would like to post this up. I'm of opinion that we're mature enough to keep it civil, and will closely moderate this particular topic to ensure this.

It is a very heated up discussion in the Netherlands right now, Islam. About 20% of the people seem to be threatened by the growth of Islam and their followers. But why are they affraid of?

It seems our southern neighbours, Belgium, are going to forbid ''niqabs'' (sp?), which is is a complete robe which covers everything, from face to feet. I didn't expect them to be the first, seeing that the Dutch sometimes seem more provocative (and sometimes progressive). We got Geert Wilders, leader of the Party for Freedom, they got Vlaams Belang.

Switserland already forbade the building of new minarets for mosques...

In the beginning, I was frightened too. All these strange dresses, this different religion. I know Jews, Catholics and Protestants, but had no experience with the Islam. I was frightened too and nearly voted for Geert Wilders. But then I thought, is it fair to blame them?

In my opinion, people are free to experience their own belief and bring their culture to here. But they shouldn't isolate themself and not integrate with society. Society, in a way, is built up with different cultures. I'd say, keep the burga's, mosques and Islam. Personally, I have no problems with their expression of religion. I guess it's their own opinion and choice.

The only thing that scares me is the niqab, which is completely hiding everything. And it's not the religion part that scares me, but the idea you don't know who's under there. For all you know, it could be a killer, who found a way to disguise themself in a legal dress, thus escaping his conviction.

What do you think? Do you think Islamic people should dress like society etiquette seems to dictate, or let them free in how to dress?

 

[TMS]

I'm not much bothered by how people wish to dress themselves, what worries me is the political influence that can gradually increase down the road. We've got a pretty peculiar situation here in Sweden but that's a bit off topic for this...

 

[Grish]

Free to let them dress how they like.

I am friends with someone who is raised Islam, and she is among the nicest people I know.

The religion itself at it's basic is extremely nice. I would say more so than Catholicism. For instance, they are Required by their faith to donate to charities each year, a percentage of their wealth. Something I'm not sure I totally believe in, but there it is. Very nice all the same.

The only issue I have is they cannot bypass identification. Such as when you vote, you are required in Canada to show who you are. I would expect this to continue. Also, if you are driving a car or have committed some other offence, you are required to show who you are (and not in some manner where some special person has to drive down and can see who you are behind closed doors).

I'm also not sure what impact constantly 'being in disguise' would have (not sure how to say it?) Currently everyone else is identified via security cameras. If someone's wearing a mask you can think somethings up. However, something like this would be a perfect cover for people wanting to commit crimes potentially. This would have to be considered as well (although should we have the right to not be identified if we commit no offence?)

Anyways, I think stomping out a religon is ludicrous. Or a political movement. Let the will of the people decide.

 

[Danceman]

Recently it seems both catholics and muslims have managed to embaress themselves rather effeciently. I mean lately the vatican ressemble more a mafia family where protecting 'their own' is more important than other people, even of their own church. Hiding evidence, evading the established legal systems and so on. It is like watching the Soprano's but with sillier outfits.

Then there is the ironic statements of being a peaceful religion for Islam when just opening up the book tells you otherwise. Though this is true for both the bible and the Koran. However, while you can judge a book by its content you cannot accuse a fellow human of being a product of it, word for word. Unless, of course, we're dealing with fundamentalist in which case any human with the tiniest bit of common sense view as a person who's clinically insane.
Also with the Gert Wiilders case or however you wish to see it the muslim community could not possibly have handled it worse. All they did with the violent campaigns was proving him "right".
Sometimes I really wonder what goes through their heads... "Ok, this guy claims we're violent... Let's kill people, riot and demand Wiilders to be beheaded!". Same story with the Cartoons, same with Salman Rushdie. With everything that is going on I am having serious trouble taking the muslim claim of being peaceful seriously. Also, claiming to have tha final revelation and that their book has already answered all scientific questions only alienates them further from a serious discussion. Ontop of this, leaving Islam is punishable by death. Charming, isn't it?

It got even worse when other religious institutions(another embarressment for the pope himself) condemns the cartoons! Not the violence. I am sorry, but if you cannot take a slight satiracal stab at your beliefs you will not get a singular shred of respect from me. Rather, you will earn my distrust and animosity.

Personally I believe it is a good thing with the ban. To me, as humanist and fierce defender of free speech(which include the freedom to offend), it is a device of female oppression. Some say that me claiming to be defender of free speech and advocating this ban makes me a hypocrite. If you find yourself thinking this I ask you consider the jews not long ago which had to wear a yellow hat so they'd be more easily identified as a jewish person. This is degrading and nothing short of public humiliation.
So in short, attempting to silence reporters, writers and even a single cartoon is to me a disgusting practice. Doing so under the threat of violence if they do not get what the want just goes to show the mentality of these people(and by these people do not mean all muslims, NOT even close).

I am not trying stir up some anti-religious campaign. Far far from it. It is, however, not irrational to raise an eyebrow at how the campaign of multiculturalism is being performed through Europe. For example, in UN with its rediculous resolution of Combating the Defamation of Religions Resolution. It is non-binding but has been adopted by a fair amount of Islamic countries, and incidently also where the vast majority of countries which pushed through the resolution in the first place. What it does is effectively making it illegal to offend and questioning religion. When I first read the resolution it left a bitter taste of facsism in my mouth.

Even though I do not care if I offend anyone I would like clarify I do not target the human, but rather the book(s) and institutions and how public discourse is handled. I am well aware that the vast majority of Muslims or anyone of any religion isn't some angry crusader frothing from his or hers mouth. This posts deals with those who cannot resist forcing down their personal beliefs down other people's throats. Just to avoid unnessecay misunderstandings!

As a closing statement. Our culture is worth fighting for, we have a beautiful tradition of freedom of speech and basic human rights. Any and all issues will be resolved with intelligent discussion, not through the threat of violence or claim to take offence.

Peace!

 

[Count Erick]

About 20% of the people seem to be threatened by the growth of Islam and their followers. But why are they affraid of?

People fear what they don't understand and are ignorant about.
There's a comedy TV show I watched, and this is a quote I find both hilarius in its delivery, and disturbingly accurate from it:
"Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things."

As to the issue of Burqas...I duno.
I don't see the big deal, and in fact, I think its a rather noble principle (but not one that should be forced on someone).
One of principle reasons for wearing it, is to ensure that a suitor interested in marrying you is doing so for more than just physical beauty. Its supposed to encourage a man to love you for who you are rather than what you look like. But, like I said before, I dont think anything should be forced on anyone.
Also, Burqas are more a cultural thing that was adopted by Islam than something produced by it. Face-veils where confirmed as being in use ~200 A.D., more than four hundred years before the birth of Muhammid.

I dont like the idea of any law prohibiting someone from wearing cultural attire. It smacks of xenophobia, and it can turn into a slippery slope to the road of prejudice and persecution, and will probably cause far more trouble than ten thousand silk veils will ever accomplish.

 

[Danceman]

That is most definitely not the reason for the burqa. The real reason is far less romantic, and far from noble.

It is sexual repression as the woman is seen as inspiring sinful thoughts in a man and being human is usually a bad thing to begin with the women has to bear the brunt of these virgins. Indeed, it is said that the man is never alone with a woman, the devil is always there wait to sneak into the mind of the man arousing sexual lust. Even Muhammad the prophet refused to shake the hand of a female, unless properly veiled. It is a constant reminder that they're sinful and wretched creatures and when praying they must always be veiled out of respect of Allah. The male gender does, of course, not have to go through this ordeal.

It is something to wear in public so that other men won't desire you wife, or daughter. Just do some basic research on the Koran and Al-hadith's and you'll find plenty of passages which present the female in a not so, to put it lightly, glowing terms.

The claim that "it is our culture" is an excuse I do not accept at face value, especially when you consider how recent traditions and some holidays truly are. Worse still, some cultures bear with them a strong dose of misogony of which I can't bring myself to respect or accept.

 

[Count Erick]

I just want to say, your sounding somewhat bigoted/angsty right now o_o
I don't really appreciate having my head bitten off. I've come to detest these internet discussions, because as soon as someone posts something different to another's opinion or way of thinking, the person immediately tries to argue their point rather than just move on or let it be. I didnt come here to argue, just to post my opinion in peace!
I'm going to respond to this, but not again. I wont be dragged into geo-religious-cultural argument that, at the end of the day, wont accomplish anything.

That is most definitely not the reason for the burqa. The real reason is far less romantic, and far from noble.

Firstly, I never claimed it was the only reason, secondly, the term 'Real Reason' when applied to this is entirely relative and pointless. The practice is so ancient that the 'Real Reason' for wearing a veil was probably to keep sand out of your eyes!

It is sexual repression as the woman is seen as inspiring sinful thoughts in a man and being human is usually a bad thing to begin with the women has to bear the brunt of these virgins. Indeed, it is said that the man is never alone with a woman, the devil is always there wait to sneak into the mind of the man arousing sexual lust.

This was a common mode of thinking in many, many places around the world, and isn't particular to Islam. Christian Europe was also horribly guilty of this set of beliefs. Their outdated modes of thinking, and no sane person is going to argue in their favor, and I'd like to add, I wasn't...

It is something to wear in public so that other men won't desire you wife, or daughter. Just do some basic research on the Koran and Al-hadith's and you'll find plenty of passages which present the female in a not so, to put it lightly, glowing terms.

That first part doesn't sound to bad. Again though, the Koran and Al-hadith is hardly the only documents that hold women in an inferior light.

The claim that "it is our culture" is an excuse I do not accept at face value, especially when you consider how recent traditions and some holidays truly are. Worse still, some cultures bear with them a strong dose of misogony of which I can't bring myself to respect or accept.

Who's using it as an excuse? I was just explaining the history of the practice, not defending it.

You seem to think I'm somehow defending the practice of forcing women to wear Burqas, but as I said (twice already) I'M NOT.

But again, I don't really see a big deal in it as long as it isnt forced on anyone. If you want to wear one, fine. Thats the reason I dislike the law banning ALL Burqas, that and as I said before, it smacks of xenophobia, and it can turn into a slippery slope to the road of prejudice and persecution.

 

[Danceman]

Not sure why you decided to take this so personal, nor why you decided to slap me with a label of being a bigot. Not to mention calling a discussion pointless and then to top it off continue the discussion. But nevermind the ad hominem bit of your post, which is pointless, and most certainly doesn't lend your argument any weight. I also added, numerous times that I wasn't making a generalisation across Islam.

I am deeply interested in subject and study it quite closely, I do like to talk about it. If you think my opinion is wrong, fine, that is why we're here. To lend our view on the matter, a better understanding, perhaps even shifting our position on the matter, or vice versa. Put simply, I am not arguing you as a person. I was making a counter-point to yours. I mean, why even post here if you're going to get upset that people challenge your standpoint?

Your initial post of a sort of "blind date" argument for the Burqa isn't what it is. Never have been. Also, the problem is that it is "forced". The implication of denying it is a very steep price to pay on a social level. In a family where the Burqa is a tradition it is likely the previous generation is going to be more strongly rooted. So it isn't a choice, or rather, they have no choice unless they want to face the consequences. This is a real problem, especially for the younger generations which more directly face the social norms and settings of the western world.

So the cultural reason, the social implication and how it works in a dialectic relationship with soceity in the western world. This is the core of the problem.

There are cases of honour-killings of course(again, I am not saying ALL do it... Or even most, just some). Though the occurance of these acts does add to the social implications for the woman who might refuse to wear it.

If we take Iran today, of which the younger generation has grown away from the older more traditional "rule" I'd say there are some positive changes in the Islamic world. We're not there yet, but every step, no matter how small, in the right direction towards equal rights between the genders is a victory.

That first part doesn't sound to bad.

Having your wife wearing a tent in public sound like nice way of treating your wife? This not only betrays a deep distrust but also empoweres the notion that the wife is a possession other jealous men will try to steal. If you can't even trust your wife, then how much is your marriage worth to begin with?

Who's using it as an excuse? I was just explaining the history of the practice, not defending it.

This wasn't a stab at you. It is just rather weak attempt for people to excuse immoral behaviour, to various degrees.

What I am expressing is that there is indeed a clash of cultures. When two opposing ideas meet there is bound to be heated debates but if we do not have these debates, how could we ever reach common ground?

 

[Count Erick]

Not sure why you decided to take this so personal, nor why you decided to slap me with a label of being a bigot.

I didn't slap you with anything. I said you where sounding like a bigot. People can sound like something, and not mean it at all. I'm not going to be so bold as to label anyone who I don't even know.
Though apparently, I'm not the only one who took something personally.

Not to mention calling a discussion pointless and then to top it off continue the discussion. But nevermind the ad hominem bit of your post, which is pointless, and most certainly doesn't lend your argument any weight.

This argument is, with by a vast percentage of likelihood, pointless. Ive been in these same damn arguments so many times before and it never achieves anything at all but making people upset. Thats why I detest them so much. But again, why in the world do you think I'm trying to argue with you after I said so many times in my last post I DONT WANT TO.

I also added, numerous times that I wasn't making a generalisation across Islam.

I duno where that came from. >_> I never said you where.

Put simply, I am not arguing you as a person. I was making a counter-point to yours. I mean, why even post here if you're going to get upset that people challenge your standpoint?

I wasn't trying to make a point, I was stating an opinion. Why did I post here? Because I felt like saying something about it, but not getting in an argument over it. There is a big difference. Hell, I didn't even really have a point in my first post! I was mostly just elaborating, posting just to post.

As for my standpoint, it doesn't even really differ from yours!
It just seems to me right now that your trying to pick a fight for a fights own sake man.

Your initial post of a sort of "blind date" argument for the Burqa isn't what it is. Never have been. Also, the problem is that it is "forced". The implication of denying it is a very steep price to pay on a social level. In a family where the Burqa is a tradition it is likely the previous generation is going to be more strongly rooted. So it isn't a choice, or rather, they have no choice unless they want to face the consequences. This is a real problem, especially for the younger generations which more directly face the social norms and settings of the western world.

I just...ugh. Are you even reading what I'm writing?
I SAID IN BOTH MY POSTS THE PROBLEM WAS ITS FORCED! I NEVER DENIED THE FACT!. And again, I never had an argument. The last thing I said on my last post was that it SHOULD NOT BE FORCED!

Having your wife wearing a tent in public sound like nice way of treating your wife? This not only betrays a deep distrust but also empowers the notion that the wife is a possession other jealous men will try to steal. If you can't even trust your wife, then how much is your marriage worth to begin with?

Now this is really personal man, because not only are you directly challenging me, your twisting what I'm saying.
I said "It is something to wear in public so that other men won't desire you wife, or daughter." sounded nice.
I never said anything about 'wearing a tent'
I mean, for gods sake, a wedding ring is worn by many women to deter men!

What I am expressing is that there is indeed a clash of cultures. When two opposing ideas meet there is bound to be heated debates but if we do not have these debates, how could we ever reach common ground?

They aren't opposing their just different. It doesn't have to be 'your culture' vs 'my culture' or 'your ideas' vs 'my ideas' it can just be 'these are your ideas, and I'm fine with them'

You posted before I did, and you seem to think I have a different opinion to yours, or am trying to make different points, and so your reaction is to challenging me.
I saw your post, and saw the same thing. Someone who has a slightly different opinion to mine.
But I didn't challenge you. I just....let you and your thoughts be.
Dont be so quick to draw your guns.

 

[Zephyr]

Let me just say why I am afraid of Muslims, maybe this will put things into perspective as I'm not your average "I hate them simply because they are Muslims". I'll get into the whole burqa-question later.

I tolerate everything as long as it does not interfere with my life and how I want to lead it. Obviously there are Muslims out there who are as open-minded, if not more so, than most Westerners. But there is a pretty large, and sadly, growing group who are becoming more and more extreme.

I have a sister, a half-sister who is half-Moroccan. I have personally seen how she has been treated. She was called names by both Dutch people and religious Moroccans but none were so violent as the Islamic ones. She had to convert to Islam in order to be "purged", she dressed like a "Western whore" and whatever else they could come up with.
Where most Dutch people were just ignorant and a little hurtful at times(hey why does your sis look that? "because my mum drank a lot of chocolate milk whilst pregnant"LOL) the Muslims were aggressive, very aggressive. You won't believe how many men harassed her, it was disgusting and really influenced my feelings toward a large group Muslims.

Obviously there were also the ones that were very respectful but they were very few and even they were treated as "cheese-head lovers" and not "true Muslims". Their lovely nick-name for born Dutch.

And now comes the truly scary part where I found out about my Jewish heritage. I'm not a Zionist, I'm all for equal rights for both Israelites and Palestinians and I also don't think the way Israel was founded was done in the right way. I understand the thoughts and feelings of Zionists but don't agree with them.
But the way you feel doesn't matter diddly-squat because as soon as Muslims find out you are a Jew you're screwed; whether or not you want anything to do with it or not.
When you look back in ancient history Jews and Muslims have never been bosom buddies but we did live next to one another with any major fights. But Islam has radicalized dramatically over the years and ever since Israel came into the mix antisemitism is almost a given.

Just this year I've been beaten, spat on and called lots of very colorful things; only because one of them overheard a friend of mine talking to somebody else about my background. Thank God that they don't live in my neighborhood but there are also Muslims here and there's just no freaking way I'll ever wear my yarmulka(that funky head covering) outside because I'm too afraid I'll get beaten up for it.


So hell yes I'm afraid of Muslims BUT not all of them are like that. I've also met Muslims that were friendly and open but it seems they are getting less and less. If you've read the Quran, like me, you'll find that there are lots of verses that come across as violent and derogatory towards women but only if you take it literally. All holy books need to be studied and only then can you discover its true meaning.

The scary thing Islam has been doing, and Christianity has done as well, is taking things literally and using it as a perverted tool to validate their own designs. The Quran speaks of modesty for women but nowhere is it said to walk about in a burqa. That is a cultural invention and not a religious one in the strict sense.
I wear black not because the Torah tells me to do so, heck I've always dressed in black, and a yarmulka or any other head covering is also a cultural thing and not a commandment.
There is a verse in the Quran where it's stated that women should be treated like farming ground; when treated justly and with love and care the ground will blossom. I sure as heck didn't read anything that made women seem inferior; that's the Islamic culture that developed over the past two centuries.
Let's not forget that the Arabs where disgustingly good scientists when Islam was already a big religion there; we were slinging mud in the Dark Ages! Something cultural happened to make that change.

I completely understand that Muslims are offended when we say women are not allowed to cover their hear. I don't see the big deal in wearing that nor the cultural clothing that's normal in their region as long as it doesn't interfere with daily life here.
The burqa is a big problem because the person cannot be identified; for safety reasons it just cannot be allowed but outlawing a simple head covering is going too far IMO. Most Western women have covered their heads with shawls for ages and nobody ever had a problem with that. All Jewish Orthodox women do so; some even wear wigs all the time and have shaved away their actual hair. I mean what's next? No more crucifixes on necklaces? If you go against one religion we'd better take down all...

Maybe that's why I see so many Muslims becoming radical; maybe they do feel that they are being oppressed for unfair reasons but instead of talking about it they use violence or threats to get their point across.
There, for me, lies the biggest problem; there are too few with whom you can have a decent conversation. Most of them act like complete drama-queens and no matter what you say can sway them into giving in at least a tiny bit.
Another problem is that they want the right to be themselves at all times yet deny that very freedom to others.

But all of that being said and combined with my own negative experiences I still do think there is hope. As long as one Muslim is willing to talk and be reasonable I'm not giving up on a whole people.
I refuse to believe that all Muslims are like the ones I encountered; if that is true than we are truly screwed.
It's not going to be easy however but the alternative is far worse.

 

[Onikaigo]

Very well said, Zephyr.

I personally stand as a non denominational Christian, and am loosely falling toward Wiccan/Zen theology. I believe in power of the Self, enlightenment, and in some loose fashion mother nature and Gaia; so I'm rather hard to classify. I own several different versions of the Bible, one of the Quran, a copy of the Torah and even at one time had a copy of the Polygamist sect writings. (Can't remember what they were called for the life of me- Tree of life? Something like that)

I consider myself well read, and am forcing myself to re read the Quran once more; I like to try and understand the root of the things I've been taught to dislike or discriminate against. I dislike prejudices, I really do, so I'm trying to banish my own through study of the foundation, then expand to the current era and find out how they've changed from my perceived view of the fundamentals. An inherently flawed path, but the only one I can walk at the moment.

As far as the cultural steps have taken different religions (Yamulka, Burqa, Crucifixes and Priest Habits), I really don't have any authority to speak, except that no ones safety should be endangered by a religious icon. If a Burqa must be removed in the middle east to verify identity, then by all means it should be removed in a discreet and sensitive fashion. Don't make women travel through the same lines as men, allow them to keep their decency as their culture allows. I think it's noones right to step into another culture and vie for change; it's their culture, if they want to change it, they can start the movement. What arrogance we (Americans) possess! It blows me away at times, and simultaneously disgusts me.

I consider myself open minded, and very rarely do I find myself biased; oddly enough, it's not against race, but against lifestyles that I find myself most prejudiced toward. I have no qualm with Catholics, Jews, Buddhists, Tibetan monks, Gregorian monks, underground cults that worship some guy named Steve or even Devil worshippers (Since satanists is an incorrect term for those that worship Satan). It's their business, obey the law of the land and I have no qualm with you.

Break the law, we have issues. In the same related thread, but completely unrelated to religion, get hugely obese by choice and I have issues with you. :| Yes, a little of my hypocritical nature showing through.

Blare your gangsta rap through your car windows, and I have issues with you. That music is (Mostly) inherently offensive to me, and I'm not afraid to ask you to turn it down, or in extreme cases call the cops for noise violations.

Slap a woman or in some other way abuse her in front of me, and I have issues. (In America that is, in foreign countries I don't know the law, and it might be perfectly legal. Here it's not.)

IT's lifestyle, more than race or religion that burns me. So in my mind, Bring on the Burqa's and Yomulka's (Yomulkai? Plural?), the Crucifix and Habits! Just represent your religion well, and make whatever god(ess) you worship proud, and not like a stern parent.

Man this post has rambled. I apologize. Bottom line, I agree with Zephyr. :thumb:

 

[Johnny B]

The claim that "it is our culture" is an excuse I do not accept at face value, especially when you consider how recent traditions and some holidays truly are. Worse still, some cultures bear with them a strong dose of misogony of which I can't bring myself to respect or accept.

Regardless, it is their culture and should not be judged according to the viewpoints of yours/ours. However, when living within our culture (somewhere that isn't predominantly Muslim) I do think they should make some concessions, or at least more than they do now. When westerners go to Muslim countries, they are expected to respect the local ways and cover up; this, I think is exactly right and fair. However, when in western countries, the onus should surely be on them to afford westerners the same respect, by adjusting to western sensibilities.
I disagree with outright bans on certain clothing, as that is just politicians being provocative and courting easy votes, and doesn't actually solve things; it just makes things worse as people get offended.

"Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things."

Sadly, this view almost always seems to prevail, directly or indirectly.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Having studied most of the religions, I have little issue with other religions (for those that are interested I am pagan). I find it not to be the religion, but the way it is followed or used by man (using the term widely to cover women as well).

Irregardless of what religion teaches, many in power always pervert what they can to support themselves and it seems to be that it today's world, religion is being used in such a way. This then can influence those to blindly follow and end up doing things which I am pretty sure none of the religious texts have stated.

However there is one thing that does really really wind me up, and something that Johnny touched on. That is the fact when you visit another country with their existing predominant religion and customs, and then stated you are being prejudice against when you are requested to follow that countries customs.

For example, if me and the missus was to visit muslim countries, I would fully expect to have to follow their customs, that the missus would have to wrap up. I certainly would not go there and start saying that is not my religion, that they are being prejudice against me. I made the choice to visit their country, I have to understand I should respect the existing customs.

In the UK and Europe however, there is a certain attitude that everyone should be accommodated for every view. Why? Should we not protect our own traditions and customs? Certain schools banned saying "Merry Christmas" as it could insult those who don't celebrate it, that is out of order in my eyes. We ignore our own traditions to accommodate those who have have recently (within the last 100 years) arrived in our country?

Then onto the subject of security. The new body scanners (which the company I work for produces funnily enough) - already there are arguments about prejudice against those who don't want to be scanned. I am sorry, but this is to save peoples lives. Everyone is being asked to go through, not just muslims, yet there was an instant where two muslim women kicked off over it. I appreciate you may not be comfortable, but to ensure everyones safety it is a no-brainer in my opinion.

So basically, I don't have an issue with any religion. I have an issue with how it is followed by some, and how some try and ram it down your throat. I also hate people saying I will rot and burn just because I don't follow their religion. Finally I hate it that we are expected to respect the customs of relatively new religions in our country, where there seems to be little respect in return for the already existing traditions and customs.

 

[Johnny B]

I also hate people saying I will rot and burn just because I don't follow their religion.

I love that stuff. Like the time when some Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door and I happened to be wearing my 'I love Satan' T-shirt. Interestingly, they seemed more appalled that my parents are an atheist and a Buddhist (there goes the neighbourhood)

Certain schools banned saying "Merry Christmas" as it could insult those who don't celebrate it, that is out of order in my eyes.

That stuff is just ridiculous, England is historically a primarily Christian country. Would you expect any other religion to ban itself in its own country? Not even Buddhists are that considerate :lol:

 

[Onikaigo]

I also hate people saying I will rot and burn just because I don't follow their religion.

I love that stuff. Like the time when some Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door and I happened to be wearing my 'I love Satan' T-shirt. Interestingly, they seemed more appalled that my parents are an atheist and a Buddhist (there goes the neighbourhood) :cheesygrin:

Hrm. I've only had one visit from the infamous '5 am preachers' but it was the perfect time for it. Crack of dawn, two guys in black slacks and white button ups with ties come to my door. I just got finished taking a shower. It was a warm day outside, and I looked through the peephole....I guess you guys get where I'm going.

They declined my offer to come inside. :devil2:

Certain schools banned saying "Merry Christmas" as it could insult those who don't celebrate it, that is out of order in my eyes.

Oh good god! Don't get me started on this. There's a woman, a single woman whom is an Atheist and is trying to get 'Under God' from our Pledge of Allegiance. She's been at it for years, and just got shot down again, but because 'Under God' 'Offends All Atheists, Everywhere' while it's in our pledge, she wants it taken out. She's almost gotten it, and if my memory serves me correctly, she's the one that led the huge campaigns to have prayer removed from American schools.

These motions, are more often than not, won or lost by sheer indifference. This woman only had a petition with roughly 200,000 names, and the bill was almost passed. The next year it was just under a million names trying to get God out of our Pledge. It was shot down again, but....less than a million? Less than a Million people in America want this to be removed, and it's -almost passed?!- Democracy my ass! It's supposed to be an 'Effin Majority! Let 151 million people say they want it out, and I won't argue. Heck, let 1/2 of the student population say they want it out, and I won't argue.

but...less than a million Atheists? It's like the kid yelling in the back of the class gets what he wants just because he's the only one talking.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

DoN mentioned body scanners and people objecting to their use, and I wanted to raise that point specifically. Shouldn't the police(and other appropriate authorities) should have the power to enforce mandatory scanning irregardless of any excuses whatsoever wherever appropriate, such as at airports? Also, on that note the same authorities should have the power to have women take off their niqab on appropriate occasions(such as when taking photos for official purposes)? I feel that public safety is something that supercedes all denominations, though clearly not all people agree with this. The niqab(and any other such traditional items of clothing that are likewise virtually all-concealing) can and have been used by terrorists, suicide bombers and such in hotspots like Iraq and Afghanistan IIRC.

Bottom line is, I feel the appropriate authorities should have the power to make you 'take it off' whenever necessary.

PS: For the record, my member flag says I'm from China only cos I'm on holiday and posting from there. I live in Singapore, a multireligious society, was raised to be Methodist but rejected it and am now agnostic.

 

[Danceman]

Count Erick Offline ; Calm down, man. If there is one thing the textual forum of internet can do is generate misunderstandings.

I mean, for gods sake, a wedding ring is worn by many women to deter men!

True but wouldn't you say the Burqa confines you as a person a whole lot more? They're unable to express themselves and it is a constant reminder that they are the source of men's sinful and lustful behaviour. They are the ones who should cover themselves up. This was my main quarrell with your post as I found it be painting a false image of the Burqa as something way more romantic and noble than it is.

However, it seems we more or less are in an agreement in the end. So I won't press this any further.

.

Actually, 1.6 million describe themselves as Atheist in the US. 15% as say they have no religion. Then add in other faiths and so on which live within your country. Indeed, atheism is fast growing in the USA. I believe it is how religion has intruded into the state that has certain people riled up. I mean the line "In got we trust" on the american bill was only put there in 1957. Some also worry that the seperation of church and state is being blurred out.

That said, I do not like the notion that minority will just have to do with what is given to them. But I want to end on a positive note, and one of my favourite quote by Abraham Davenport "Either the day of judgement is here or it is not. If it is not, then there is no occasion for alarm and lamentation. If it is, however, I rather be found doing my duty. Let the candles be brought".
Duty, however, is a word of which have very different meaning. I like to believe it is to be a good man, to myself, and to my fellow man and woman.

 

[Sanai]

I see islamic people as no different to people of other denominations. They are just people like anyone else. They worship (in my opinion) the same god as I do (I am a christian). Even if they dont, I dont care. Freedom of religion is important.
On the clothing issue, I dont mind it in most cases, unless it becomes a security or hygiene issue, in which the clothing is just impractical.
on the minaret issue....most places have codes and stuff to make sure the architecture conforms to the overall look and feel of the place. You put a bunch of middle eastern minarets in a european city, it is likely to look plain silly. Sure, have the mosque, just worship in a (cheaper) and less obstrusive hall/shed looking building like I do. Just because I am christian, does not mean I need to worship in a cathedral.

On the offense issue, I think people just want to complain about things.
Striking under god from the american historical thingo is just silly. It only offends atheists who want something to be offended about. The same goes for the other side of the coin, like the catholic church renouncing Harry Potter because it has wizards. People just like to try and ban things and get offended by things so they can feel self righteous and important.

Atheists say that there is absolutely no god. Good for them, I think they lack the evidence (which is hypocritical since they base their argument often on there being little evidence of a god)
religious types say there absolutely is a god. Good, as long as you dont shove it down peoples throats or annoy me too much with door knocking, or try and impose your moral code on others.
Agnostics dont know, which is okay.
the one type that pisses me off, is apathetics. People who simply dont care.
They are so bloody numerous, as evidenced by that bill nearly being passed. Why do people not care anymore? Because they are so comfortable and selfish.

 

[Master Vampire]

Maybe that's why I see so many Muslims becoming radical; maybe they do feel that they are being oppressed for unfair reasons but instead of talking about it they use violence or threats to get their point across.
There, for me, lies the biggest problem; there are too few with whom you can have a decent conversation. Most of them act like complete drama-queens and no matter what you say can sway them into giving in at least a tiny bit.
Another problem is that they want the right to be themselves at all times yet deny that very freedom to others.

This is the biggest problem we have in the Netherlands. All the parties talk about the islamic problem, but they discuss it as if it's far from them. We need a Muslim party that has genuine opinions about behaviour in society. A group that speaks up against the radical muslims, that they are doing it wrong. And I know they are out there. In my opinion, they are the only ones that can change this cultural deficiency...

 

[Get of W'soran]

I'm not going to throw in a long post because I don't really care about Religion.

However I have to agree with some of what has been said (especially what was brought up by Johnny).

They can do as they wish in their own homelands, it's their culture.
However once they come over to the western world they have to learn to make concessions. Its a point I feel very strongly about, I wouldn't even be annoyed if it was made illegal for foreign cultures to be publically displayed when they interfere with the county's own culture or laws/rules.

To throw it from a serious nation wide view I'll put it into a community view.
A muslim family moved in close to where I live a few years ago, now I have never dealt with them but all the Adults (including my parents) have since we live in a small estate.
They are also universally disliked where I live and havn't a single friend outside their family (at least none that ever visit them.)
Now I've heard that some think the reason they're rude has something to do with their religion, I've never payed attention because I don't care about them nor do I want to get to know them but if it was their religion/culture interfering with their neighbours maybe thats another reason to tone it down.
I mean it would be nicer for neighbours to get along.

 

[Sanai]

I didn't think there was much in traditional Islamic Culture that encourages rudeness. I do believe (correct me if I am wrong) that some Islamic cultures actually had strict traditions about hospitality and proper conduct.

 

[Danceman]

Indeed, these cultures effectively view other religious as children. They won't be given full rights but will enjoy the protection of the state. I think these children as called dhimmi(or something like that). Me, being an atheist though, I better stay away :mrgreen:
The reasons for the reaction against Islam is the claim it is final, period. We need nothing else. Though this can be said of most religions I have to say Islam appear to the most vocal about it, also, violent about it.

Being the astro-psychics nerd that I am I am almost offended by that claim. Infact, I am, sort of. Perhaps, frustrated is a better word. Here we have some Imam appearing and stating "This was already stated here, here and here". Ah, my good Imam but why did you wait for us to prove it using science.

Atheists say that there is absolutely no god. Good for them, I think they lack the evidence (which is hypocritical since they base their argument often on there being little evidence of a god)

That isn't the base at all. It is merely one argument. It is derived from the ontological arguement. In short, it is very hard to disprove something that isn't there.

 

[Zephyr]

IT's lifestyle, more than race or religion that burns me. So in my mind, Bring on the Burqa's and Yomulka's (Yomulkai? Plural?), the Crucifix and Habits! Just represent your religion well, and make whatever god(ess) you worship proud, and not like a stern parent.

Agreed. Oh and it's yarmulka or yarmulke or yarmelke. This really funky language you know as Hebrew? It has no consonants! But you can also say kippah of which the plural is kippot or or kippel or...aw frag it.:tongue:

On a more serious note, I have to agree with the last posts about integration; if I go and visit an Islamic country (I don't think so as I value my life but suppose I would) I would adhere to their customs.
Why is it then too much to ask to do the same if you are actually going to live in another country?
I can understand that you don't want to change everything you do and take pride in your background but at the very least learn the language and be polite according to what is custom here.

And yes MV there are polite Muslims out there but I guess they are afraid to speak up because their more vocal and anti-social brothers and sisters are aggressive towards them as well because they are seen as selling out.

And yes Sanai traditional Arab culture is indeed very much about hospitality towards strangers.

 

[Get of W'soran]

I didn't think there was much in traditional Islamic Culture that encourages rudeness. I do believe (correct me if I am wrong) that some Islamic cultures actually had strict traditions about hospitality and proper conduct.

I didn't say it encouraged rudeness, what I meant was certain actions they may or may not take might offend people of other religion/culture.

However I'm guessing they're just a rude family in particular
Nothing to do with their beliefs.

P.S If that was aimed at my post

 

[Abbysal]

I love that stuff. Like the time when some Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door and I happened to be wearing my 'I love Satan' T-shirt. Interestingly, they seemed more appalled that my parents are an atheist and a Buddhist (there goes the neighbourhood)

I was a Jehovahs Witness growing up! Quite offended actually.

[/quote]Certain schools banned saying "Merry Christmas" as it could insult those who don't celebrate it

Don't you have to say "Happy Christmas" now? And they were talking about banning Piggy banks!!

Did anyone see Ch4's Britain's Islamic Republic? Obviously I don't believe everything I see or hear but it was pretty scary how it seems to be getting!!