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Killing blow and Flaming sword/Bears anger

MasterSpark

Nostalgian
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#2
The Wight King will get to keep his Killing Blows while under the effect of spells such as those (although the Flaming Sword is cast by the Wizard on himself only, and that will never be the Wight King in question). The special note in the army book states only that it is lost if he uses a magical weapon from the Artefacts of Death section. Which he won't be, right? :)
 
Joined
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#3
The arguement that was used agaist me was that Bears anger says that he can't use a weapon, and the wight kings text seems to imply killing blow is on his mundane weapon.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
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Aug 15, 2007
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#4
It's a toughie, I'd say it seems like no (As Flaming Sword is a magic weapon, and Bear's Anger allows no weapon at all to be used), but you may be able to swing it with semantics like the fact that Flaming Sword aint from the AoD section, or that the KB is more a "fighting style" than it requires a weapon...
 

Grish

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#5
Direwolves have a mundane weapon. So do Fell bats. Anything that uses it's hands, or nails, are using a "hand weapon". Whether its actually a weapon or not is irrelevant. Check the back of the book in the unit entries, where it displays their cost. You'll see it there.
 
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#6
Good point Grish. Thanks.
I'm just starting to play with forbidden lore, and I'm trying out all the differnt lores. I haven't gotten to fire, yet, and MasterSpark pointed out that I can't use flaming sword on the wight king. So its really not an issue.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
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#7
Grish said:
Direwolves have a mundane weapon. So do Fell bats. Anything that uses it's hands, or nails, are using a "hand weapon". Whether its actually a weapon or not is irrelevant.
That's not really what we're discussing here though. Yes, everything HAS a weapon, but Bear's Anger spells out quite exceptionally that you cannot use ANY weapon while the spell is turned on. So the fact he has claws that count as a hand weapon doesn't really change anything...
 
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Messages
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#8
Wight Blade Text
Any normal weapon carried by a Wight King has magical attacks (but all of the normal rules for that weapon still apply). The weapons also has Killing Blow special rule. These Wight Blade rules are ignored if the Wight King has a magic weapon from the Artifacts of Death.

Bears anger
This spell may be cast upon the Wizard himself or any single friendly character within 12" of him, no line of sight is required. The spell can only be cast on a model with a unit strength of 1 (it won’t work on a mounted model or a model riding in a chariot, for example), even if engaged in close combat. The target becomes as wild and powerful as a mighty bear. He adds +3 Attacks, +2 Strength, and +1 Toughness to his characteristics. He cannot wield a weapon nor use a shield whilst using this spell.
 

Humaneater

Black Knight
Joined
Apr 5, 2010
Messages
395
#9
what Iowix is saying, which I feel the need to mention because he/she didn't, is that Wight Blade says "Any Normal Weapon," which would include Great Weapons, etc. because they are "normal weapons," and that Bear's Anger specifies "a weapon." Since in the Wight Blade rules it specifies "Weapon," it implies he must be wielding the weapon to gain killing blow. Hence, as he is not wielding even a Hand Weapon, he loses Killing Blow.

I think the general ambiguity here is that most models are presumed to always be wielding a Hand Weapon.
 

Grish

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#10
It's my understanding everything has a HW and uses that to attack. If always using a HW is not important, then I fail to see why animals have it listed in their profile.

I'm sure there's characters out there (Drycha?) that uses just claws to attack with. I suppose using bear's anger, which would be your claws/hands as well, would then negate the use of her HW? Good ol' GW, still making no sense. So, use your hands to attack with? That's a HW. Have a spell cast on you to make you strong and use your hands to attack with? Nope, that's not a HW. Completely different weapon.

You're right, I'm assuming that because all other models that use their bare hands to attack are considered hand weapons, so would a Wight King.

If you use your bare hands to attack, that is still a HW how I understand it.
 

Humaneater

Black Knight
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Messages
395
#11
Indeed, although in this case it says "he cannot wield a weapon" so as far as I'm concerned, even if he did have a "hand weapon", literally in the form of his hands, he cannot wield it. Sometimes RAW can be justified ^^ Either way, RAI would generally be that he isn't wielding a weapon, and a Wight Blade specifies any weapon he wields has killing blow, so whether his hands are considered hand weapons or not, he isn't technically wielding them (although I couldn't imagine a Wight King dropping his hands and bashing him with his bare radius and ulna...).

Sometimes RAW is funny :D and even fewer times, it can be justified :D
 

Grish

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#12
Yeah, based on the wording I'd have to agree that he would lose killing blow.

I REALLY hope 8th clears up a lot of junk. Otherwise I may be selling all my stuff.
 

Humaneater

Black Knight
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395
#13
Its GW, of course it won't clear anything up. Until they release an FAQ (if then) there'll probably be even mroe issues...
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
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#15
Spell disallow the use of any weapons, so you lose the benefit of your wight blades. Does not matter how many weapons you've got, you're not allowed to use them while affected by Bear's anger.

The reason of having hand weapon is purely for the sake of the rules. Like the HW+shield rule, for example. Additional hand weapons only working with models using hand weapons, and so on.
 

Grish

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#16
The issue being, that animals all use hand weapons. Can anyone clarify that? Unarmed = hw?
 

Humaneater

Black Knight
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395
#17
Well there isn't a specific "unarmed" rule in the game because alot of army books are designed to work with animals etc using Hand Weapons, it would simply be a massive headache to peoples' sanity to introduce one, not to mention invalidating alot of army books or making them work differently to how they were, all of a sudden, intended. Generally Hand Weapon refers to anything that an animal or creature can use to the effect of a Hand Weapon, and in alot of new army books they have said under equipment: "Claws and Mutant Appendages (Hand Weapon)" for example (this particular one taken from Chaos Forsaken). So whether everything is presumed to have one or not (which they are in most cases), alot of the newer books say they are anyway.

Perhaps GW are getting clearer... ZOMG ITS NOT PLANET EARTH ANYMORE!

Oh, and a note off topic to anyone: I've posted another list (40k this time), the link's in my signature. Yes, I do play Marines cause I like the fluff lol.
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
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#18
Grish said:
The issue being, that animals all use hand weapons. Can anyone clarify that? Unarmed = hw?
That is what I meant by being for the sake of the rules. Everyone has a hand weapon because every model is supposed to work with addition rules such as additional hand weapons or the shield + HW. My guess is they opted for this route to easily distinguish different weapons and units from each other without having to add extra wording every time.

I certainly could be done in a different way, but this is how it is.
 

Fodderboy

Master Necromancer
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#19
Isn't a hand weapon something hard or pointy - held in the hand - used to inflict miserableness on whoever's on the receiving end?

If you are bare-handed, you no longer weild a hand weapon, and must rely on fisticuffs, head-butts, and pile-drivers.

Admittedly the Slavering Jaws of a Dire Wolf are also considered hand weapons. The only reason I can conceive of to justify this is to render all 'natural' weapons, like teeth, claws, and indescribable tentacles of DoN, vulnerable to effects that alter the effectiveness of weapons. Otherwise there'd be arguments about critters not being armed, and therefore immune to such effects.

With Bear's Anger, it explicitly states you get no weapon, so no killing blow. You have to make due with brute force instead. 6 attacks at S6 should be a good start.
 
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