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Let's make some simple but solid AoS tourney rules!

najo

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#1
OK, so here is the goal:
Simple but solid tourney rules that fix what's missing with as little changes as possible. When we are done, I want to see a set of simple rules that does the following:
1) no points out complicated classification or org charts. We should simply list or armies with how many of each scroll and model and then that list works.
2) some sort of deployment that auto balances games and not everything you bring gets used, though most gets used. I like the idea of army variation and adapting your comp to opponents occurring in tourneys.
3) fix summoning!

So, what ideas do you all have to accomplish this?

Towards summoning I'd like to add:
  • Summoned units cannot cast spells the turn they are summoned.
  • Summoned heroes are restricted or banned?
  • A limit of one summoned unit per wizard who can summon you have in play.
Thoughts?
 

Demian

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#2
I have something regarding summons!

The way we've been playing here in our group is that, regardless of conditions, no army may have more than 2 summoned Units at any given time.

Although having 2 Lords of Change present in the battlefield is quite overpowering, summoning them is not that easy, plus are somewhat manageable, since they are not so good in combat.

This also applies to other effects that would set up new units on the battlefield (Chaos Lord's command ability, for example).

Maybe, just maybe some conditional effects could be excluded, but that's unlikely (Neferata's Vampire Thrall "summoning" or Vlad's Wight King "summoning")

---------------------------------------------------------

Model count on each warscroll is a bit trickier, since most former core units work at a 30-model count minimum for their best effect, and I'd add another extra 10 models to account for a cushion. Max 40 models on infantry and... what, 15 to everything else?

---------------------------------------------------------

Deployment-wise, we could adapt to the Core rules, like:

regardless of the amount of units / warscrolls you have registered in the tournament (up to the max allowed), you can decide NOT to deploy them all, thus attempting to counter your opponent's model count with your own, and go for a sudden death objective. This also includes how many models of each Warscroll / Unit you will want to field.

---------------------------------------------------------

Extra rules... what, no named characters? That sounds okay-ish to me
 
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#3
A limit of one summoned unit per wizard is adequate. However, summoned zombies by default can join units of non-summoned zombies, which makes everything unclear.
Possibly there should be a restriction - summoned zombies should only be able to join other summoned zombies.

Don't know about banning summoning heroes. But if your problem is summoned wizards who in turn can summon other wizards, then we should possibly prohibit summoned units to summon.
 
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#4
For the summoning the way i played it with my friend was that each wizard can summon a maximum number of units equal to the number of spells he can cast per turn. So if i have Mannfred and a vampire Lord i can have at any given time a maximum of 3 summoned unit.

Also if the wizard who summon the units gets killed, you also lost the summoned unit (we thought this rule was following the fluff and that it was fun :tongue:)

for the Demon who can summon wizard, maybe add that summoned unit can't summon other unit?
 

najo

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#6
I want it to get maximum traffic and not much else is going on. For AoS its the main issue needing resolution too. So for now its fine Unless I get ganged up on bye other mods. (suspiciously looks over shoulders).
 

najo

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#7
Well, as I see it there is really three levels of summoning in the game. Correct me if I am wrong.
1) Undead summoning, which is not terribly OP unless you have a lot of scrolls with summoning spells and Nagash. Nagash is potentially OP, but as a whole undead don't break with their summoning spells to bad.
2) Daemons summoning strong units and heroes, who in turn provide more summoning. Namely the Lord of Change is the real culprit here. He can fairly reliably summon more LoC AND spam Eternal Gateway. So, the main issue here is chain summoning and then letting loose with magic missiles from all of them. I would say at a minimum heroes that are summoned can't cast spells the turn they come in. Maybe even ban heroes summoning heroes or at the least summoned heroes can't summon other heroes.
3) Then there is the reinforcements that come in like with the Chaos Lord as a command power. These units are given any limitations like summoning spells, so what keeps them in check other than throwing off your "summoned" to "starting" number of models ratio? One friend of mine suggest that these command powers pull from undeployed warscrolls that you have in your army.

Thoughts?
 

Atrophus

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#8
With regards to summoning, I think the best solution would be to select a number of war scrolls for summoning, say 4.
Then you can only summon the units you selected at the start, for example 2x zombie, 1x morghast archai and 1x black Knights.
But then allow them to be recycled if the summoned units are destroyed.

I like @Kallypso idea of once the summoner is killed the summoned unit is removed aswell.

This could also scale for bigger games. Maybe one summoning war scroll for every 3 warscrolls deployed?
 

Demian

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#9
Bringing summoning warscrolls could make up for your emergency summoning strategy, indeed, because it would force you to think about your "side-board" as well.

I would also like to add, to the general tournament rules, that you must have at least half of your warscrolls in non-Hero, non-Monster (and maybe non-War Machine) units.

And to finalize, I know this could begin to make these rules a bit more complex that we were expecting, but limit the amount of total... I don't know, Models or Wounds of any given army to "X" just so that no one ends up fielding 120 models, because they brought 3 units of 40 zombies (or in fairness... Phoenix Guard, because that would be just lol).

Would the idea be to disregard the Sudden Death objectives, and force players to bring a more or less balanced army in therms of quantity of models? What are the worst lists that could come up with only setting an amount of Warscrolls to play?

Because I'm thinking, on our part:

Neferata
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (3+ Save)
Necromancer on Nightmare
Mortis Engine
Blood Knights x5 - x10 max
Sepulchral Stalkers x3 - x4
Necropolis Knights x6 and keep growing this up
EDIT: Swap the unit you don't like for a Carrion, just to win those Sudden Death objectives (Endure, or even Seize Ground may work)), if any army should have around ~25 models. This could be potential Cheese! This is what I mean.

This would be a ~18 model army, with ~100 wounds, that can easily summon 40+ Zombies as a single warscroll, Morghast Archai, and perhaps, if the buffs are right, a Terrorgheist as well, or Vargheists to make the casting values safer. Plus Necropolis Knights would get bigger and bigger and they are awesome, mind you.

This would only be 7 Warscrolls, with 3 Heroes, 4 Units and if Neferata or any named character was banned, can be swapped for a Coven Throne easily.
 
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najo

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#10
Most places I've seen handle the summoning spells as you need to field the warscroll to gain the summon spell. Also, the endure Sudden Death states that the unit has to be on the battlefield at the start of the game. RAI the Carrion don't fulfill that criteria. Seize Ground isn't hard to counter them either as they have to declare the territory feature and you just go and park a unit on the perimeter of it, that way the carrion can't drop down and claim it since they can't move within 3".

So, with these clarifications, what does a cheesy list look like?

What does the most abusive Lord of Change army look like in your opinion?
 

Demian

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#11
Oh yeah, I meant that, with such a low model count armies, overusing big monsters, including a Carrion would be your auto-win against any and all armies that had even 1 ranked unit of say 40-model Skeletons (but that's only for Death players, others I think, would not be easy to do). That's why I would be in favor of disregarding the Sudden Death rules altogether when building a Tournament ruleset, since we should be improving the game's fairness while facing armies.

I believe my issue is that I like to handle summoning as a specialist spell, rather than a buff or a damage one, that's why I would object not having a certain amount of freedom regarding what I can summon. If it is only what Warscrolls I field, then I think the Undead lose a bit of their... "stuff" lacking better words to describe it.
-----------------------------------------------------

Now, there are 2 other factions that need clarification regarding setting up new units and how should it be handled as balance:

Chaos: not only Lords of Change can summon/set up new units. Chaos Lords can, potentially bring a 40-model Cavalry unit to play each turn, provided that the unit is within 5'' of the edge of the table, but as wide as you can (it has no restrictions as to how far from any enemy unit it must be placed). I believe Mutalith Vortex beasts can create new Chaos Spawns with an attack, Tzeentch Sorcerer Lords can do that as well with a damage spell, etc.

Now, we include all Daemons of Chaos army here.

Lizardmen: well they are more "controlled" since their casting values are high-ish and only Slaan mages can summon stuff, however, he can keep on bringing Temple Guard on and on (or better yet, their cavalry, since they have better stats for 5 minis summoned with the lower cast).

All in all, most of the effects that set up new units are limited and somewhat manageable, since they have certain conditions to meet and the units they set up are not grossly overpowered. We only have to take care of specific effects, such as Chaos Lords (1 "summoned" unit at any given time, always with the minimum model count allowed for that unit of Slaves to Darkness would sound fair).

For all other instances, I'm in for the "no more than x summoned units on the field at any given time". Special Units set, by either Bolt of Change, Lamian Vampire's Blood Kiss and so on are fine, I'd say.

Bray Shaman's Monster summoning limited to non-Hero and Chaos monster also.
 

najo

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#12
Ironically, undead summoning being limited to the warscrolls you've taken to get the spells actually curbs abuse and even brings Nagash into the realm of less abusive.I know its not 100% clear, but it sure seems that the spells become added to the army when you field the warscroll as the rules for the spells are within the warscroll. I assumed it represents the spells used before the battle to summon the troops being used.

As for the summoning/ reinforcements rules for tourneys, what do you think covers all of the situations as simply as possible?
 

Demian

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#13
As simply as possible... hmmm...

Ok how about this:

Tournament building is 10 Warscrolls, each with some or any restrictions in model count (not important at this moment)

In-game, however, you will not field those 10 warscrolls that encompass your whole army, but only 7. You have an effective side board of 3 Warscrolls that should be deployed to counter (soft counter really) your opponent, depending on what he's fielding (deployment war works here).

Then, players wanting to reinforce their armies have actual Pre-made Units (Warscrolls) that can be brought into battle. You can't exceede them via Reinforcing with a gazillion Chaos Knights (only those you made your list with), and Summoner players have a degree of freedom having the exact Warscrolls they can use to summon units (ie: you would not be using your model count for the original Warscroll Unit you're using, just the Summoning Spell effect, and what models you get from casting are the ones you use).

All in all, you may never have more models than those you built your army on:

Tzeentch players may want to include a Warscroll of Chaos Spawns, and have on "reserve" up to 3 models (as an example) ready to be set up with Bolt of Change or any other spell. Or... they could just field them at the start of the battle and have them take a beating. When they are no longer on the field, Bolt of Change can re-summon them.

How about that? :D
 

najo

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#14
Its good. What is the limiting factor for number of models or wounds? How do you lay out a army list? I.e.

Mannfred Mortarch of Night
Necromancer
Necromancer
Black Knights x10
Zombies x30
Morghast Archai x4
Blood Knights x8

What restricts the unit sizes?
 

Demian

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#15
Well, if the general idea is solid, then we can come up with ways to limit army sizes:

-An may have up to "x" total wounds in it.
-Up to "y" Warscrolls may be Heroes
-At least "(1/2)x" amount of wounds must be used in non-Hero, non-War Machine, non-Monster units.
-No more than 2 copies of any Unit, named characters are unique of course.

And I was thinking, we would all love to use any of our named characters, so let's include them in the mix:

-An army without any named Characters may field up to "z" additional wounds worth of models.
-No more than 2 named characters per army.

Last, just to encourage a bit more "fairness" if we can call it that way, we can give a bonus to non-faction users like:

-Armies from only a single Army Book (ie: Bretonnia-only warscrolls) may field an aditional 1 Warscroll (having an army of 11 Warscrolls, fielding 8)


That way, Chaos players may use their summoning at "will", but Warriors of Chaos only players may get a slight advantage just for fielding all their units from a single army book, which doesn't allow them to summon Daemons.


If it looks good so far, we can adjust the number of wounds per total army!
-----------------------------------------------

Example "cheese" list, in the worst possible scenario:

  • (16) Nagash
  • (11) Arkhan, Mortarch of Sacrament
  • (05) Vampire Lord on Barded Nightmare
  • (14) Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon
  • (14) Terrorgheist
  • (12) Mortis Engine
  • (12) Mortis Engine
  • (08) Corpse Cart with Balefire
  • (18) Blood Knights x6
  • (16) Varghulf x2
  • (12) Morghast Archai x2
That would be a 140 wound army (138 is the score, actually, but nothing else fits) with 11 Warscrolls (all VC army), and at least half the army wounds worth of non-Hero/Monster/War machine units where Nagash can only summon: a Terrorgheist, 2 Varghulf and 2 Morghast Archai only, but can cast spells from himself, Arkhan, both Vampire Lord's and the common Mystic Shield and Arcane bolt spells with his 8 spells.

This would be a semi-cheese list, yes, but at least is somewhat manageable.

Of course, we can tweak the system a bit to either limit this kind of stuff more, or give a bit more incentive to players wishing to field a diferent army, with no named characters in it.
 
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Malisteen

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#16
The rules for summoning spells are on the unit warscrolls because there's literally nowhere else to put them. They are intended to be summonable regardless - reference the lizardmen scrolls which allow summoning of named characters. Further, I've spent a long time looking at the various scrolls and haven't found a single other case where any rule was written with the assumption that scrolls stop existing when units are no longer on the table - every other rule either specifies that it is only in effect when a model is on the battlefield (a number of rules do this, which is notable because if the units rules didn't exist when they weren't on the battlefield anyway it wouldn't need to say so - see the king louie of brettonia, or the heal treekin spell in wood elves), or is a command ability (which can only be used by models on the table anyway), or has a set range.

There should be limits on summoning, but it should be on the total amount summonable. Restricting to units on the table without any other restriction fails to do so. If a game starts at 60 wounds, it breaks the game to summon 60 more wounds to one side or the other every turn, regardless of whether those wounds are restricted to being more of what was already on the table or not.


So here's an alternative proposal:
have a normal style limit on number of total scrolls, scrolls of heroes/monsters/war machines, total number of wounds, and wounds per scroll by type (unit/hero/monster/etc). These limits are not on the game, but on your effective collection for that game's purposes.

Next, have limits on total number of scrolls that can be deployed in a given game. This might be as simple as X scrolls (where X is some number less than the total above), or you might get into specific category limits or overall wounds or whatever. Or maybe the specific limits and wound limits will go here, and the collection limits will be number of scrolls and wounds per scroll only, I don't know. Regardless, this is what you can deploy in the game, out of the limited collection above. Units not deployed are in reserve (and thus available for rules that bring units on from reserve - summoning, the chaos thing, etc).

In effect, normal forces get an army plus a small sideboard that they can use to dynamically tailor their force during deployment based on what their opponent deploys, while forces that can summon get a limited selection to summon from - not necessarily restricted to what they currently have on the table, but they can't summon endlessly. This limits total summoning during the game without having to remember who summoned what or anything like that, because the models you can still summon are right there in your reserve. Models that are killed are not returned to reserve, they are placed in a separate casualty pile to make victory percentages easy to manage as well, which can get confusing if you allow re-summoning of killed units (something all the more likely to happen if you allow unlimited summoning but only of units currently on the table).
 

Demian

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#17
Yesh! @Malisteen

The point is to have a core mechanic that allows players to:

1) Get limits on their armies. This is what makes the game "balanced" between players. Having an effective collection that cannot increase in size is the best way, as you propose!

2) Units should have some form of limiting, just to avoid as much cheese as possible: Having 15 Necropolis Knights is not fun, specially since you can ress 1 model per turn, +1 model for every Tomb Herald that uses his standard, +1 for every wizard that reanimates one.
  • Here, maximum unit sizes could help. "No unit of x type may have more than y wounds, under any circumstance" This takes care of the Reanimate spells not getting grossly overpowered. It also limits the amount of models a Chaos Lord can bring to the table with his command ability, and like you say, once the Reserve is dead, it can't be re-summoned.

3) Giving some form of incentive to players not fielding Named characters, or players using only one Army Book for their forces. There should be some bonus to not playing Chaos, but only Beastmen and their Monsters (Bray Shaman), etc.

Let's hear more feedback/ideas :D
 

Malisteen

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#18
Slightly more refined proposal-

Collection limits (these are the limits on the collection from which your army is chosen during deployment)

Max number of war scrolls (duplicates counted separately)
- maybe a max number of 'special' (hero, war machine, monster, terrain) war scrolls
Max wounds per normal unit war scroll
max wounds per 'special' war scroll.
Maybe a maximum total number of wounds?


Deployment limits (these are limits on what you can deploy from your collection in a given game. Anything from your collection not deployed goes in reserve. Models killed during the game go to a casualty pile - available for healing effects like undead banners, but not for summoning or other effects that draw units or models from reserve)

Max number of war scrolls, slightly less than above
Max number of 'special' war scrolls, again less than above
Maybe a minimum and/or maximum total number of wounds?

EDIT: note that I wouldn't distinguish further than 'normal unit' and 'not normal unit'. For instance, I wouldn't put separate limits on war machines, heroes, and monsters, as I find that too inflexible, and poorly maps to some army themes. However, scrolls that count to the special limit in multiple ways (a scroll that is both a monster and a hero, for instance), might count twice against the limit, rather than counting once each against two different limits. That might be getting too complex to be worthwhile, though, as this system is already a bit complex due to the separate limits on collection and deployed army.


Deployment is alternating as usual, allowing you to respond you your opponent's deployment choices with tailored selections from your 'collection'.

Sudden death either not used or based on wound count. Probably best to leave the sudden death rules as scenario fodder. Actually, in 'even' games, it might be fun to give both sides a 'sudden death' condition, and use kill percentages as a tie breaker if neither or both conditions are met by the end of the game.



The collection and deployment limits would scale with game size. Individual scenarios might also affect these game rules - ie, a scenario where an advance scouting unit encounters an enemy force and must hold them off until reserves arrive might have one side starting with smaller deployment limit with more units arriving from reserve during the game, or an assault on Nurgle's garden might have nurgle daemon units returned to reserve instead of the casualty pile when destroyed, making them available to summon again and again in endless waves.


EDIT: actually, re: sudden death and the default scenario. have the collection and deployment limits scale with game size by 'tier' as per the suggestions by @Vampernata. In games of equal tiers, games last 6 turns, both sides have a 'sudden death' condition, and major victory goes to the player who achieves theirs. If both or neither player achieve their condition, then use kill percentages to determine minor victory (note that in so far as summoning allows killing percentages to exceed 100% of starting total, an army that summons multiple units may find itself suffering a minor loss even after wiping out the opposing force completely, provided they lose more models than they started with).

In games where one side is a higher tier than the other (thus having more units to deploy and more units to choose from), only the lower tier player has a sudden death victory condition, and the higher tier player cannot achieve a major victory - they can only achieve a minor victory by preventing their opponent's victory condition then winning on percentages.

In games where one side is two or more tiers lower than the other, the lower tier side gets one additional sudden death victory condition per extra tier of difference. For instance, tier IV vs. tier II, the tier II player might earn a major victory for either assassinating one of the other players heroes or for having one of their units survive the match.

This for 'normal' games, specific scenarios would interact with tiers in their own ways.
 
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najo

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#19
@Malisteen I reviewed everything you mentioned and here is my take on summoning. Models can either be deployed as normal or summoned and if you want to summon them, then you include them in your army. I know this is very loose, but bare with me. I think the idea is hey, I can play with or summon whatever I have in my collection, yay! Technically, you could include every warscroll and then summon anything you want, whenever you want up to whatever models you own or whatever your opponent allows you to proxy. WAAC tourney guys are going to play that way.

So to keep that behavior under control, I think the idea we are headed towards for tournament AoS is summoned units are part of your army selection. The warscrolls you include in your army list gives you the units you can summon. The issue though becomes the maximum number of models and using the spells multiple times.

For example, if I have 30 daemonettes I've included in my army and I don't deploy so they can be part of my summoning, then how do I properly summon them in through the game? Do I just summon them and deploy up to 10 as the spell says? Then those 10 come out of the reserve each time I cast? Once I am out of those extra daemonettes are the summoning of those daemonettes done?
 

najo

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#20
On the restrictions:

Example: 6 - 12 Warscrolls Max 120 wounds
Restricted Warscrolls include: Heroes, Monsters, Warmachines.
Your total number of wounds in restricted warscrolls can't out number your number of wounds in other warscrolls.
You can't take more than one of any unique named warscroll.
The themed stuff that @Demian is talking about I think the Battalion rules covers already. Just allow players to use them.

So the questions are:

1) Do we need to limit warscrolls in anyway? I.e. Maximum of 2 etc. to encourage diversity or discourage spam?

2) Can summoned units/reinforcements just fit into this model by restricting what you summon to left over warscrolls?

3) Is it worth going into armies and labeling the core warscrolls as such to encourage people to include them? This would be a short list instead of going through and labeling every unit. Then you require that a certain number of warscrolls or wounds is taken from here. The idea is to encourage units like clan rats to get taken. Is this needless? I prefer not to do this.

4) How do we easily cap unit sizes in a way that feels organic and not forced? Minimum scrolls and restricted units does this to an extent, since at a minimum you would have to take 6 scrolls, 3 are restricted 3 unrestrcited and then your having to put at least half the wounds in them. Let's think super cheesy. If you went with Nagash, Arkhan and Mannfred and then matched their wounds with non-restricted units you would have a total of 38 wounds in restricted and 38 wounds in 3 non-restricted units, so an army of 76 wounds. With the remaining 44 wounds you can't do to much damage. Ideally give them something to summon. 22 wounds into non-restricted and 22 into other stuff is about as broken as you can get.

Ironically, I actually thought of Warhammer doing something like restricted and regular units in place of the whole rare, special, core and character method. If you move some specials into restricted and some in to regular and then put all the characters in restricted, it works pretty well and is way simpler and gives more selection in the "core" units.
 

Banat

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#21
Option: Play it as it is... I'm not sure what WAAC stands for but I'm assuming its power gamers and "rules as written" types who will use the rules to claim that everything in their case is their "reserve army" and can be summoned.

However, at tourneys, you might penalise contestants based on how much of a douchebag they are during the match. They take double blood thirsters and a Lord of Change and summon a second lord of change who summons a unit of 20 Bloodletters etc etc. They win the match, but the level of douchebaggery is such that they get -50 to their "final score" (how that might be decided can be tackled later =P ) resulting in their opponent actually going through to the next round. Tournament officials decide on douchebaggery.
 

najo

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#22
WAAC = wins at all cost.

Here is the issue. "Douchebaggery" is subjective and one persons idea of fun is not necessarily another persons. Likewise, armies that are too extreme won't match up in a very well. Finally, there are two kinds of competitive players - douchebags and nice guys. Nice guys like a competitve balanced environment and want to meet new people, play a good head to head game, shake hands, congratulate their opponent, learn some cool tactics and strategies. They like the tournament scene and are good sports in it. Honestly, my experience with tournaments is that most people who go to them are the nice guys. The douchebag is rare.

Comp gives some guidance and balance to everything. It takes the place of friends talking really quick or the scenario. It allows strangers to come together, meet and play without a) Having to bring everything they own and b) not having to spend time before hand solving what to play and how to play it.

Look at it this way, competitions are an expected and normal part of human society and gaming. Its in our DNA to some extent. Its also a natural leap to take a game with toy soldiers and pretend war/conflicts and build organize competitions around it. Anything people play head to head with skills can be turned into a tournament, and you are going to have a percentage of a player base that doing that is one (of the many) ways they have fun with that game.

So, to enable all of that we need more than just bring your stuff and don't be a douche. There needs to be some structure and organization.

Technically, Warhammer Fantasy had fan structured tournaments. The whole 2500 pts standard that was essentially everywhere was exactly organization and players agreeing on a point value (roughly) that everyone played at because that allowed tournaments and pickup games to occur. Age of Sigmar needs something similar but done without points if possible.
 

Malisteen

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#23
I was thinking more like:

Reserve
Tier 1 Reserve Limits: (round down in all cases)
Up to six scrolls from one of the 'big four' over-factions plus terrain
* duplicate scrolls count multiple times
* formation scrolls do not count, but their individual units do
Up to half of which may be restricted (heroes/war machines/monsters/terrain)
* models that fall under multiple categories count multiple times
Up to 10 wounds per 'normal' unit
max wounds per restricted unit = 1/2 max wounds per normal unit
No more than 40 wounds total
No more than one of any proper-named model

Deployment
During deployment you may deploy up to four units from your reserve
up to half of which may be restricted units or terrain
May deploy a maximum of 30 wounds in total
Models and units not deployed remain in reserve.

Variable Unit Strength
A unit that is deployed or enters the game during play from reserve need not include all of the models initially selected for it. For instance, If your total army reserve includes a unit of 10 paladins, you may choose to deploy it as a unit of 5 or 7 instead. This may even be necessary to stay under the maximum wounds deployed limit. Likewise, if you summon a unit of 10 zombies during the game, you may choose to take them from a reserved unit of 30.

Stragglers
Due to variable unit strength, you may be left with straggler models in your reserve. These models are still available for in-game effects that call or summon new units from reserve, provided they meet the mimum number of models for a legal unit. For instance, if you have a unit of 30 zombies in your total army reserve, and deploy them as a unit of 20 at the start of the game, the remaining 10 zombies may be summoned as a new unit during the game.

War Scrolls
All war scrolls you select as part of your total army reserve are in effect during the game. War scrolls you do not select as part of your army reserve are not in effect. For instance, if you do not select a balewind vortex as part of your reserve army, your wizards will not know the 'summon balewind vortex' spell, even if you own the model otherwise.

Formations
Formations do not need to be selected as one of your total army reserve scrolls. You may instead declare any formations you choose to be in effect at the end of your deployment, provided you have deployed all of the required units. A unit may not be part of more than one formation unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Maybe???: Small Game Concessions
Some of the limits here don't work well for all factions at the smallest game size. To accommodate those factions, the following concessions are made:
* Non-restricted, non-unique units may be included at their minimum unit size even if that would normally put them above the maximum wounds per unit restriction. Bonus wounds for core units (see below) are added on top of the wounds for a minimum unit instead of for the usual unit maximum in this case.
* A single non-unique, non-monster hero may be included in your army even if that hero's wounds would be above the normal limit for restricted units. If such a hero is included, it must be deployed, and must be your general.

Maybe???: Core Units
The army may include up to 5 extra wounds of core models (models with the core keyword, which will have to be added to units as appropriate). These wounds do not count against maximum wounds per unit, per army, or for deployment, and may be added onto other units or fielded as a unit of their own (provided they meet the war scroll's minimum unit size. ie, a tier one army may include one unit of 12 skeleton archers and one of 13, even though the normal limit per unit is 10, and these two units would count as 20 wounds total for the maximum wounds per army and maximum wounds deployed limits.

Maybe???: Heavy Reserve
You may choose for your army to be a 'heavy reserve' force. If you do so, then you may increase the maximum wounds of your total army reserve by up to +5, but the maximum wounds you may deploy at the start of the game is reduced by the same amount.


Larger Games
For each additional tier:
Max units in reserve +2
Max wounds per normal unit +5
Max wounds per army +20
Max units deployed +1
Max wounds deployed +15

Maybe??
Max heavy reserve +5
Bonus core model wounds +5

Example:
So, for instance, a tier 7 army could include:
up to 18 units/scrolls total
up to 9 of which may be heroes/war machines/monsters/terrain pieces
* units with more than one of these keywords count multiple times
* ie, if nagash is included, then only 7 of the other 17 scrolls may be restricted
Max of 40 wounds per normal unit
Max of 20 wounds per restricted unit
Max 1 of any proper named unit
Max wounds total: 160

During deployment, may deploy 10 units / terrain scrolls
up to 5 of which may be restricted
* again, multi-restricted models count multiple times
* so if you deploy nagash, you may only deploy 3 other restricted units
Max wounds deployed: 120

Maybe???:
- The army may include up to 35 additional wounds of core models, spread out over units with the core keyword as desired. These additional wounds do not count against the maximum wounds per army or maximum wounds deployed limits.
- Heavy reserve armies may Include up to +35 additional total maximum wounds, but reduce their maximum wounds deployed by the same amount.

The 'Maybe' bits are basically to allow ogre armies in small games, to encourage basic troopers if normal wound limits end up discouraging them in favor of their elite counterparts, and to enable summoning-themed armies if the normal gap between total reserve and deployed forces proves too small to make them workable. None of these may prove necessary in the long run.

For sudden death, compare tier level instead of model count. For same tier games, both sides choose or roll randomly for a 'sudden death' victory condition, but games are still played out to 6 turns even if one is met. If one player achieves their victory condition, that player earns a major victory. If both or neither do, then compare kill percentages for minor victory as usual. For games between players of different tiers, the game ends immediately with a major victory for the lower tier player if they achieve their condition. If neither player has achieved their condition by the end of the game, the lower tier player earns a minor victory. Otherwise, compare kill percentages to determine minor victory as usual. If the lower tier player is two or more tiers below the higher tier player, they choose the victory conditions for both players. If they are three or more tiers below their opponent, they may select two victory conditions for themselves, and win a major victory immediately if either condition is met.


Obviously, that's more with pick up games in mind. Tournaments would have set scenarios and tier levels.

EDIT: revised 'core' bonus suggestion.
 
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Demian

Vampire Count
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
1,248
#24
EDIT!: This ruleset, I've found a bit too complex for this post's need. I've distilled the system to this post :D
https://www.vampirecounts.net/threa...id-aos-tourney-rules.29511/page-2#post-430782

Well, I have given some thought to how to measure unit sizes, armies and the like.

I'm going to refresh all of my above posts in this one, writing the most simple version of these Tournament Rules. I have made some proxy lists too, and I feel that these values are more or less balanced. Still, I will color all of the "x" and "y" variables so that you know what we can tweak.

The text in gray are notes and reasons why I'd like to include such a rule.

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Army Building:
  1. Each Army will be composed of up to 10 Warscrolls, each Warscroll is made of a single Unit.
  2. No Warscroll may be duplicated more than once. No Warscroll belonging to Uniquely Named HEROES may be taken more than once. This includes Count Mannfred and Mannfred, Mortarch of Night not being able to exist in the same Army. (no 3 Tomb Kings + Settra = almost automatic Righteous Smiting for Tomb Kings... No two Konrads... you get the point.)
  3. The Army must be comprised of up to 140 total Wounds, distributed amogst all models in it. At least 70 Wounds must belong to models without the HERO, MONSTER and WAR MACHINE keywords.
    • Up to 4 Warscrolls may be HEROES. Up to 20 Wounds may belong to Uniquely Named HEROES. (this solves the issue with having Nagash + his 4 Mortarchs in the field, plus other maor cheese, without banning Nagash, etc).
    • Units with a minimum Model count of "at least 10 or more" may be composed of up to 50 Wounds and may not exceed this value at any given time during the game.
      *The ONLY exception to this is for Units of Ogres (from the Ogre Kingdoms Warscroll Compendium), who can ignore this restriction and may include up to 12 Models (48 Wounds). (This had to be done to fully use these units's "If you have more than x models you get y bonus. Ogres don't fit in an otherwise brilliant way to meassure this, I'm afraid.. >_< )
    • Units with a different minimum Model count than above, may be composed of up to 25 Wounds and may not exceed this value at any given time during the game. (comparing 8 Blood Knights to 4 Mournfangs, to 3 Gorebeast Chariots, etc. I think this is it for limiting full big model spam, or at least limiting it a bit. This also sets up a halt to Phoenix Guard, Swordmasters, Grave Guard, Chosen, etc.)
    * If your Army contains no Uniquely Named HEROES, you may include a bonus of up to 20 additional Wounds for your Army. (Not using Nagash should have a bit of a perk, for more balance)

    * If your Army is comprised of a single Warscrolls Compendium, you may include an additonal 1 Warscroll. (DEATH, ORDER, CHAOS and DESTRUCTION players should have a bit of a handicap, to limit the cheese)

During the game:


  • In each game you will deploy as normal, but up to 7 of your total Army Warscrolls in a battle. *If your Army is comprised of a single Wascrolls Compendium, you may deploy 8 Warscrolls in a battle instead.
  • The other 3 Warscrolls from your Army are considered a Reserve, and can only enter the Battle via Reinforcements or Summoning. (Because some armies, like Orcs & Goblins, Ogre Kingdoms, Bretonnia, the Empire, High Elves, etc... have no way of bringing new units to the table, and I feel they could get to play more fairly here)
  • Your Army is the sum of this Tournament's collection of Models and Warscrolls and under no circumstance you may increase or decrease this size, this includes Summoning, Reinforcing or adding models to existing Units. (takes care of the cheese from Tomb King's Reanimate Spells. It may not seem like it, but adding 4 models to Necropolis Knights a turn is quite something...)
  • At the start of their turn 4, a player may Reinforce their Army with a single Warscroll that was left on Reserve for this battle. This Unit is set-up as if in the beginning of the game, on that player's own Territory and more than 12'' away from enemy Territory and more than 3'' away from enemy Units.
* If a player chooses not to, or has no models in his Reserve (due to having used other Reinforcement effects or Summoning), then no Unit is set up, and may not use this Special Reinforcement again in this Battle. (This little perk will make for a much better strategy than just flailing your miniatures forward and hoping for the best. Armies that don't or can't summon stuff may get a form to match the Model count disadvantage a bit, Chaos Lords may use their Reinforcement Command Ability for up to 3 Units that will never exceed their total army, guaranteeing 1 of their units will answer the call, and even Undead players may get to plan a little surprise, of models that benefit from spent or committed armies, like Cavalry to get their surprise charge. This is a totally off the rules mechanic that may keep every player content, and make the non-summoner armies get a bit more fair)
  • Once a Model is slain, it is set on the Casualties Pile, that will help determine the Battle's victor. Slain Models that are returned to the Battle, return from this pile and will not be counted as a casualty by the end of the game. Summoned and Reinforcement Units can only be selected from the Reserve and may not re-enter the game from the Casualties Pile. (so that Armies don't feel like re-utilizing the same Hexwraiths over and over again, and messing up with the "all armies have the same-ish amount of total wounds" balance we are trying to implement here)
End of the Battle:
  • At the end of the 6th Battle Round, if a side has not been wiped out of the table and thus granting a Major Victory to the opponent, the Battle ends and casualties are counted from the Casualties Pile in Wounds. (using models slain for determining victory is a bit of a let down for when you want to field small infantry models, so using Wounds to count for Casualties is more fair)
- The player with the least casualties is the Victor of the Battle, claiming a Minor Victory. If the result is a tie, the Battle ends with a Draw.
  • A player may not clam a Minor or a Mayor Victory from any other rule or form, other than the two mentioned above. (no Bell + Kairos = boom!, or tieing yor shoelaces with Settra. Let's be a bit fair)
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Do you think everyone would consider this a fair Tournament Ruleset?
 
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Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
187
#25
I like Najo's idea, the issue I see with forcing limits, means armies, like dwarves who have lots of warmachines gets penalized because their army doesn't fit a typical game. I think without more information, I would say try it the way you suggested, heroes, monsters, and warmachines, have to be matched in wounds from models not listed in those categories. Because there are formations, that run big monsters, but if you are forced to bring 60 wounds outside that formation, to match the 60 wounds benefitting from the formation. The one suggestion I would make based on what a local tournament is implementing, is a side board. So for your 120 wound example, you would be allowed 40 wounds in a side board, which before a match you can switch out for models in your primary list, while still having to keep to the construction limits. That sideboard also acts as your summoning pool. So you have the option of having your sideboard, allow you to tailor towards scenarios or matchups, so you adjust your list every game, OR you can run a summon list where your sideboard is there for summoning, since not everything in the Death faction is summonable.

I'm not sure if this idea has any merit, but I liked the idea, I'm not sure if it will be successful, but it allows for more of the flexible deployment in the game, and wraps the summoning into it. Obviously the size of the side board could be adjusted to allow more or less flexibility.
 
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