Legion of Nagash LoN 8th Edition review - Core

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok then, lets have a look at the core section:

Core
Skeletons - Points/model: 8 - Not yet updated
As per VC except may take a magical banner worth upto 40pts

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Zombies - 4pts per model - Not yet updated
Exactly the same as per the VC Army Book.

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Nagashi Cultists - 10 pts./model - Not yet updated
Though ranked low in the plans of Nagash, these mortals follow him without question. The belief they have in their Dark Lord lends them a fanatical fury which they vent on those who would defy their god and master.

Cultist..... M 4 / WS 4 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 4 / A 1 / Ld 7
Champion: M 4 / WS 4 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 4 / A 2 / Ld 7

Unit Strength: 10-25

Equipment
Morning Star and Heavy Armour

May choose the following equipment upgrades (costs are per model):
Flails +1pts

Options:
-Any unit may upgrade one Cultist to a Musician for +5 pts.
-Any unit may upgrade one Cultist to a Champion for +10 pts.
-Any unit may upgrade one Cultist to a Standard Bearer for +10 pts.
-Any unit may give their Standard Bearer a magic banner of up to 40 pts.

Special Rules
Frenzy
Nagashi

N.B: If the army does not contain a Nagashi Captain, a cultist unit does not fill a minimum core requirement slot.

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Favoured Ones - 7 pts./model - Not yet updated

On the slopes of Nagahsizzar reside a a foul breed of humans. They swore themselves to Nagash long ago, and their ritual sacrafices to him long ago turned into macabre feasts of flesh and blood. Despite their cannabalism driving these foul ghouls insane, they still retain a low cunning and intelligence enough to use weapons. When Nagashs legions march to war, they follow in its wake, prowling along the flanks of his armies, hunting down their next meal.

Favoured One....... M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 4 / W 1 / I 3 / A 2 / Ld 7
Greater Fiend....... M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 4 / W 1 / I 3 / A 3 / Ld 7

Unit Strength: 5-20

Equipment
-Claws
-Throwing Spears

Options:
-Any unit may upgrade one Favoured One to a Greater Fiend for +7pts.

Special Rules
Nagashi
Skirmishers
Poisoned Attacks (also applies to thrown weapons)

The Dark Feast
The feasting of flesh is an honour to the Dark Lord, and none would deny the Favoured Ones their chance to show their devotion. In battle any they killed are devoured where they fall, an act that not even Dreadlords of Nagash would dare interfere with.
The Favoured Ones cannot pursue or overun. In addition no characters may join any units of Favoured Ones.

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Black Riders of Nagash - Not yet updated

Riding ahead of the vast undead hosts of Nagash, these human followers of the Dark Lord spread fear and confusion to those that would oppose them

Black Rider of Nagash - 14pts per model
Rider......M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 4 / A 1 / Ld 7
Steed....M 8 / WS 3 / BS 0 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 3 A 1 / Ld 5

Equipment:
Flails

Options:
Each rider may be equipped with Shrunken Heads for +2pts per model

Shrunken Heads
Theses terrible weapons are the shrunken heads of those that fight the Dark Lord's plans. Though not powerful, the fear and horror they create can be just as effective
Thrown Weapon. 8” range. 2x shots. Str2 and causes panic check when they wound.

Special Rules
Nagashi
Fast Cavalry

NB: Black Riders do not fill a minimum core requirement slot.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Right then:

Skeletons / Zombies: I think we simply say that they are exactly the same as the VC book for points, stats and options. The only exception is the skeletons may take a banner upto 40pts (a previously agreed increased banner allowance due to the more intrinsic magical nature of the LoN)

Nagashi Cultists - With 2 attacks due to frenzy, with step up these guys are going to be murderers. We did increase their points costs to allow for it, but I think having them hit on 3+ against most other core is perhaps too much now. I suggest we lower their WS to 3. Still have the same rule about not counting towards the core percentage if a Nagashi captain is not present.

Favoured Ones - I think they are fine as they are.

Black Riders - I think their stats are ok. Are they still worth the points though, due to the knock cavalry has taken in the 8th? Wording needs amending to not count towards the minimum core percentage.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Again bump, thoughts on my comments please?

 

[Bravo_10]

Hmm...not sure if you need to take down the Nagashi's weapon skill. Sure, they'll hit on 3+ against Clanrats. But Empire Swordsmen, Chaos Marauders, all Elvish units, Brettonian Knights, Chaos Warhounds, and so on all have WS4 as well. I think it's become very common among core troops, so it really doesn't make them all that over the top.

I also don't know if you want to lower the point cost of the Black Riders. The fact that they have thrown weapons with x2 multiple shots that also cause panic if they inflict even one wound is very powerful. While combat cav took a hit in the 8th edition, I think fast cav that can shoot like Pistoliers and TK Light Cavalry are still quite useful.

 

[Montesque]

Hmm...hope no one minds if I jump in here :konrad:

As far as the core goes, I personally don't think that the zombies and skellies need any updating, seems to me they work just fine as is.

Likewise, the cultists look good.

I do have some questions about the Favoured ones and the Black Riders, however. Seems to me that the Favoured ones are rather significantly undercosted, considering they share a statline with VC ghouls AND have a ranged attack. Now, in 7th I could see it, because skirmishers had been so drastically weakened. However, some of the changes in 8th, while somewhat limiting the mobility of skirmishers, have also increased the options (IMO) and utility of ranged skirmishers, to a degree that I think that having the Favoured ones be cheaper than ghouls doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

For the Black Riders, I agree with Bravo, in that the 2x shot with panic on 1 casualty is a powerful ability, even with S2. Removing pretty much any one of those issues would fix it, I think, that is, either raise the points (no more than 2 pts, I should think), make it a single shot weapon (what is the reason for the 2x in the first place? just curious) or do away with the automatic panic test (the least desirable option in my opinion.).

 

[Bishop]

I'd be okay with the Cultists dropping down to WS3. Yes, WS4 might be more common then it was. However, WS3 is still the "norm", and is the "norm" for humans as well.

I concur that the Favoured ones should be uped in point costs. They are clearly better then a Ghoul in almost every respect, less a character joining the unit.. they also get skimishing. Note (to new comers): this unit is "alive", not Undead. I'd say 9 pts a model should be fine.

I'm okay with the Black Riders as is... however, if you wanted to increase the points cost, just increase the cost of the shooting option (since that seems to be the point of contention).

 

[Montesque]

ah, right, had forgotten that the heads were optional. Keeping that in mind, that actually puts them right up to about where I thought they should be in the first place, so I would be ok with keeping them as is. 16 pts for light cav is fairly significant, and with the short range of thrown weapons it should keep them from being OP, I think.

The cultists are a tough call...it seems to depend entirely upon how "elite" we would really consider the cultists. All the ones mentioned for WS4 are known to have some reason for having above average skill (other than maybe empire swordsmen...I've always considered them kind of strange in having WS4, all things considered)...and the lore doesn't really suggest to me that the cultists would have such justification. On the other hand, with so many WS 4 things running around, WS 3 has almost become a disadvantage rather than the average...

Taking all that into account, I think we should keep them at WS 4 because no one else in the core section is, and it balances the list slightly better against elite armies.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

I'm fine with the Cultists as they are. In fact I think they are 1-2 points overpointed, because heavy armor alone is a negligible benefit(people who use a lot of Swordmasters will understand), and they are not re-raisable unlike Skellies, etc. I see them basically as a close equivalent of Khorne Marauders. Khorne Marauders work because they are cheap and hence can be easily taken in big blocks. Likewise, Cultists need to be cheap points-wise to some extent for them to even be a viable choice.

Other than that, I don't see any issues. Shrunken Heads isn't that big a deal when you consider that with S2 and the new Throwing Weapon rules it's hard enough to even hit and wound for the special rule to take effect. And since BSBs allow you to re-roll failed Ld tests of any kind in 8ed, Psychology is a LOT more forgiving than it once was.

 

[Bishop]

I'm fine with the Cultists as they are. In fact I think they are 1-2 points overpointed, because heavy armor alone is a negligible benefit(people who use a lot of Swordmasters will understand), and they are not re-raisable unlike Skellies, etc. I see them basically as a close equivalent of Khorne Marauders. Khorne Marauders work because they are cheap and hence can be easily taken in big blocks. Likewise, Cultists need to be cheap points-wise to some extent for them to even be a viable choice.

I'd be okay with dropping them down to 8 pts a model, if the WS is dropped down to WS 3. I think that would make them work better, as you'd be able to take 20% more of them. And WS3 puts them in-line with basic trained humans.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

I'm fine with the Cultists as they are. In fact I think they are 1-2 points overpointed, because heavy armor alone is a negligible benefit(people who use a lot of Swordmasters will understand), and they are not re-raisable unlike Skellies, etc. I see them basically as a close equivalent of Khorne Marauders. Khorne Marauders work because they are cheap and hence can be easily taken in big blocks. Likewise, Cultists need to be cheap points-wise to some extent for them to even be a viable choice.

I'd be okay with dropping them down to 8 pts a model, if the WS is dropped down to WS 3. I think that would make them work better, as you'd be able to take 20% more of them. And WS3 puts them in-line with basic trained humans.

I don't see any particular reason for or against Cultists having WS4 as opposed to WS3. If their WS does get lowered, they would be worth less than 8 points. 6 points each would be fine then IMO.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Right then, so based on the above comments, can we agree:

Zombies: As per VC book

Skeletons: as per VC book with 40pt magic banner allowance.

Nagashi Cultists: Lower to WS3, and drop to 7 points (Bishop said 8, Sweeny said 6)

Favoured Ones: Raise to 9pts per model

Black Riders: Do not count towards min core percentage


Any other comments?

 

[Bishop]

I'm okay with those changes. Playtesting will have to dictate any further adjustments.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

A bit late, I know, but I certainly disagree with Montesque regarding the Favoured Ones. Skirmishers got a big nerf in 8ed for no reason, and throwing weapons are now effectively worthless. Add the two together and I don't see why they should be any higher than 7 points. While on first glance they are the equivalent of Ghouls, their inability to pursue or overrun, no characters being able to join them, and not being Undead(and hence not being rez-able) weigh heavily against them.

To add to my above point, something of negligible benefit should not be factored into the model's points cost at all. Take for example High Elf Archers. They have the option to take light armor for +X points per model, but as a 6+ armor save is as good as nonexistent, nobody would ever bother as long as you have to pay for it.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

No not late at all Sweeney.

You do raise some good points about the Favoured Ones. At first glance whilst they are good, they actually have some hefty disadvantages. I personally think we should keep the points as they are.

What does everyone else think?

 

[Bishop]

You have to remember that you are comparing these to the BEST troops in the VC army. I'd prefer to err on the side of caution regarding their point value. They should be NO LESS then the cost of Ghouls... T4 and skirmishing, if you take a big unit... WILL make it to combat and still be reasonably effective when doing so.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

They should be NO LESS then the cost of Ghouls... T4 and skirmishing, if you take a big unit... WILL make it to combat and still be reasonably effective when doing so.

I disagree with this assertion. You have not addressed their disadvantages as compared to Ghouls. And also, Skirmishing can actually be considered a disadvantage in 8ed so that's another minus against the Favoured Ones.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Like I side, with both sides of the arguments, I think it we have the favoured ones at 8pts that should be ok.

 

[Montesque]

After all, there's always playtesting, and since I think we all have a fairly good idea of what to expect from ghouls, we should be able to make a fairly good comparison after a few games, wot?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Right then. As there have been no other comments we will put the Favoured Ones at 8pts and playtest them.

Any other comments, or are we good to go?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

With the new TK book, I think we should really address the following:

Skellies
Zombies

Obviously GW think that skellies need to be recosted to 4 pts. To be honest I would be tempted to change the rules to use the TK rules as they will be the most upto date, and give them a 40pt magic allowance.

In regards to Zombies, I think we should actually redesign these. We all know they don't work, are underpowered in the 8th to the point where they are not used. I would really like to create something that reflects how zombies should be, a shambling horde that over powers in numbers, and can be difficult to take down.

For example:

Nagashi Zombies (name just to differentiate them from VC)

M4 / WS1 / BS0 / S2 / T3 / I1 / A1 / Ld4

Special Rules:
Undead
Regeneration 5+

Horde of Death
Whilst an individual zombie is a poor opponent, when enough gather together they can be a fearful for as the push and claw in an unending orgy of bloodshed
Zombies always fight in one extra rank than they would normally be allowed to. For example if they could normally fight in two ranks to the front, they would fight in three. If in Horde formation, they would be able to fight in four. The includes fighting to the flank or rear, so if charged in the rear, two ranks would be able to fight back.

 

[Bishop]

I agree that making changes to these for the purposes of teh LoN list is fine.

TK Skeletons are 4 pts naked right? So, with Lt Armour and Shield they'd have to be 6 pts. Or would it make sense/be better to have them the same as the TK skeletons? And then allow the armour options to be optional?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I say have them identical to the TK ones to be honest. Most of Nagash's forces would have been taken from that area anyway. So if we do just refer to the TK book instead of the VC. Do we want to give them any more options though, such as heavy armour etc?

What do you think of the Nagashi Zombie proposal. It makes them a bit tougher to kill, so they are a more effective tarpit. Plus with their special rule the number of attacks might cause some damage.

 

[Bishop]

I'd prefer to see the Skeletons keeping the same equipment defaults and options that they currently have. Then just recost them based on the TK Skeletons. So, that'd make them 6 pts a model. It seems wrong for them to not have Lt Armour, HW/Shield.

As for the Zombies.. that is certainly an improvement on the current Zombie (heck, it'd be hard to not be). I'm still not sure that they are worth their current point cost. Personally, I'd like to see a rule that prevents crumbling on other units due to the Zombies inability to be effective. I think that this would be "better" then Regen.

Recently Dead
Any wounds suffered by a Zombie unit will not affect the CR of any non-zombie units in the same combat.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok, so on that case we have:

Skeletons - 5pts per model

Skeleton: M4 / WS2 / BS0 / S3 / T3 / W1 / I1 / A1 Ld5
Champion: M4 / WS2 / BS0 / S3 / T3 / W1 / I2 / A2 Ld5

Unit Size: 10+

Equipment: HW, Shield, Light Armour

Special Rules: Nagashi Undead (I think we need to review this rule)

Upgrades:
Champ +10pts
Standard +10pts
Std +10pts

May purchase spears (in addition to current equipment) +1pst per model


Nagashi Zombies: 4pts per model

Nagashi Zombies (name just to differentiate them from VC)

M4 / WS1 / BS0 / S2 / T3 / I1 / A1 / Ld4

Special Rules:
Nagashi Undead
Regeneration 5+

Horde of Death
Whilst an individual zombie is a poor opponent, when enough gather together they can be a fearful for as the push and claw in an unending orgy of bloodshed. Such are ease with what these weak undead are sustained, their destruction has little effect on the ebb of magic across the battlefield[/b]
Zombies always fight in one extra rank than they would normally be allowed to. For example if they could normally fight in two ranks to the front, they would fight in three. If in Horde formation, they would be able to fight in four. The includes fighting to the flank or rear, so if charged in the rear, two ranks would be able to fight back.
In addition when working out crumbling where a unit of zombies is involved, the number of wounds caused to zombies do not count to working out wounds inflicted on non-zombies units. For example:

Enemy inflicts 4 wounds on zombies, two on skeletons, 2 ranks = 8CR
Zombies inflict no wounds, skeletons cause 2 wounds, two ranks and flank = 5CR

Result is 2 wounds caused by Crumbling. 2 wounds are taken off any zombie units involved. However for the remaining non-zombie LoN units deduct the wounds caused on the Zombies (4 in this case). This means no other crumbling wounds are caused, however the enemy still counts as winning combat that wound for all other purposes.


What do you think?

 

[Bishop]

I think that Skeletons should be 6 pts a model. It's still a vast improvement on the 8 points, and I'd prefer to err on the side of caution.

Nagashi Undead (I think we need to review this rule) - I can't find this rule...link?

I see these rules seperately, but not together.

Nagashi Zombies: 4pts per model

Nagashi Zombies

M4 / WS1 / BS0 / S2 / T3 / I1 / A1 / Ld4

Special Rules:
Nagashi Undead
Regeneration 5+ 6+ (I think that's fair)

Horde of Death
Whilst an individual zombie is a poor opponent, when enough gather together they can be a fearful for as the push and claw in an unending orgy of bloodshed. Such are ease with what these weak undead are sustained, their destruction has little effect on the ebb of magic across the battlefield

Zombies always fight in one extra rank than they would normally be allowed to. For example if they could normally fight in two ranks to the front, they would fight in three. If in Horde formation, they would be able to fight in four. The includes fighting to the flank or rear, so if charged in the rear, two ranks would be able to fight back.

In addition when working out crumbling where a unit of zombies is involved, the number of wounds caused to zombies do not count to working out wounds inflicted on non-zombies units. For example:

Enemy inflicts 4 wounds on zombies, two on skeletons, 2 ranks = 8CR
Zombies inflict no wounds, skeletons cause 2 wounds, two ranks and flank = 5CR

Result is 2 wounds caused by Crumbling. 2 wounds are taken off any zombie units involved. However for the remaining non-zombie LoN units deduct the wounds caused on the Zombies (4 in this case). This means no other crumbling wounds are caused, however the enemy still counts as winning combat that wound for all other purposes.

Everything else in there looks good. I just think that the 5+ regen and the CR adjustment together were too much. I'd be willing to see what play testing brings back at 6+ regen.