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Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Ok, onto the next section, Heroes!

Usual stuff, no changes without justification of making them work in the 8th edition.




Heroes

Mortuary Priest - 105pts -

In ancient days, in the long-forgotten lands of Nehekhara, lived a people obsessed with death and eternal life. At the centre of all of this were their lords, the kings of Nehekhara, who desired to reign eternal in the undying splendour of the afterlife. However, Settra, first and greatest of the kings of Nehekhara, resented terribly his role in the great scheme of things and he wished to escape death altogether, so that he could forever be master of great temporal power, of the kingdom of Nehekhara. To this end he commanded that his priests should find a way to stave off death forever, so that he could become an immortal, and rule for an eternity. Thus was founded the Mortuary Cult. Each successive generation of priests took up the quest for immortality, and their combined knowledge pooled, so that it grew ever greater over the ages. Eventually the later generations of priests did achieve immortality, although Settra was long dead by this time, so that they became liches, little more than preserved corpses, but maintaining the entirety of their intelligence and freedom of will.

Then came the birth of Nagash, now infamous and feared throughout the Known World as the Great Necromancer, the one who spawned the evils of the Black Arts and the fiendish undead created through them. Even more-so than most of Nehekhara’s people, Nagash had a morbid fascination with death in his youth, and joined the Mortuary Cult of his native city of Khemri at an early age. He eventually resolved that he would not allow death to steal existence from him, although he did not settle for the half-life of lichedom, at least not initially. Of course, Nagash eventually seized the throne from his brother, King Thutep, and, with the help of a captive Dark Elf sorceress brought to Khemri as a slave by chance; he learned much of Dark Magic. Now high priest and king of Khemri, Nagash distilled an elixir from human blood that perfectly restored and maintained the imbiber’s youth. Many ambitious and corrupt priests of Khemri’s Mortuary Cult sought favour with Nagash in order that they might partake of his Elixir of Life. The other kings of the various city-states of Nehekhara were disturbed by the happenings in Khemri and waged war against Nagash, crushing his armies and slaying his myriad followers and forcing him to flee into the desert-wildernesses of Nehekhara.

This was not the end for Nagash’s followers, however, for in time Nagash returned, having crafted his own magical lore and mastered it. He had become the Great Necromancer and achieved true immortality independent of the gods of his people. His followers he raised up once more, as liches preserved not by the power of the Nehekharan gods, but rather through the dire potency of Nagash’s formidable Necromancy. Now resurrected, the undead Mortuary Priests who had served Nagash in life gave up the ritualistic incantations of their folk in favour of the unholy magic of their master. As such the practices and tenets of the Mortuary Cult, which they had once abided by, were warped and twisted into the worship of the god-like Nagash, and the near deification of the state of undeath. These Mortuary Priests followed Nagash and served him in all of his wars, becoming masters of Necromancy in their own right. In modern times, most of the Mortuary Priests reside with the Great Necromancer in Nagashizzar, forever studying the Black Arts under the direction of the most powerful of their number, the Disciples of Nagash, in preparation for the day their master sends all his vast armies forth once more to conquer and despoil the lands of the living.

Though most of the Mortuary Priests are ancient beyond reckoning, it is not unknown for new members to be inducted into their ranks, for many aspiring necromancers of great promise are drawn by the lure of the libraries of lore held within Nagashizzar and by the notion of being taught by one of the mighty and learned liches that serve under Nagash himself.


M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 3 / W 2 / I 4 / A 1 / Ld 8

Magic
A Mortuary Priest is a Level 1 caster. He may choose spells from either the Lore of Shadows, Death, or Nagash and may cast one Ritual of Nagash per turn.

Equipment
-Hand Weapon
-Lesser Scarab Jar: Strength 3 breath weapon. One Use Only

Options
-May be upgraded to a Lvl 2 wizard for +35 pts.

Special Rules
-Undead

Mount(one choice only)
Skeletal Steed..................21 14 pts.
~ Barding 7 5 pts.
Greater Carrion...................30pts


Magic Items
Common/Nagash's Legion Lists up to a total of..............50 pts.
A Mortuary Priest must choose one Book of Nagash as described in the Magic Item section. This does not count towards his magic item allowance.




Zenith Prince - 100pts -

Across the Old world and beyond, there are tales throughout history of the rise and fall of ancient civilisations. These long deceased empires were only small compared to what exists today, but each had warriors of power and skill, and when these champions fell they were buried with all the regalia of their leadership and exalted position. Weapons, armour, and all the gold and wealth accumulated in their life was placed into burial mounds and these sealed over my potent magic’s and charms, to allow the dead princes to slumber throughout the ages.

However, not all of these tombs remain inviolate. Many have been broken open and ransacked, their riches stolen and spread throughout the world. However, some would open these tombs for far darker purposes. In the Worlds Edge mountains, many of these mounds were erected, and Nagash soon noticed them from his throne in Nagashizzar. Using the dark magic at their command, his servants opened these tombs and raised the princes from death. These princes are filled with all the pride and arrogance of their former lives, and wish for nothing more than to rule empires anew, though the land they once had be little more than dust and memory now.

However, they are bound to the service of those who raised them. They are commanded by Nagash, and when he demands they lead his regiments to war. The Princes stride at the head of an undead horde, resplendent in shining armour, and wielding wicked weapons forged in ages past. Although they are long dead, these champions still feel the thrill of battle, and will slaughter all who stand against them. Facing one of these undead champions in battle is a terrifying experience; as they hack around themselves with brutal strokes, severing limbs and cutting open vital organs, while incoming attacks bounce from their bronze armour, or just sail through the gaps in their bones.

In life many of these princes were the champions of ruling Lords, their chosen man who carried their standard before them, leading the elite of the kingdom to battle. Nagash often uses them in the same way, but rather than heraldry and fanfare, these princes now carry dark banners, reeking with death and malice, as they lead regiments of the dreaded Pinnacle guard to war.


M 4 / WS 5 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 5 / W 3 / I 4 / A 3 / Ld 8

Equipment
-Hand Weapon
-Full Plate Armor(4+ armor save)

Special Rules
-Undead
-Wight Blades
-Commander of the Guard: Any Undead unit joined by by the Zenith Prince can march move as per the BRB. He confers no benefit onto Nagashi units

Options
May take a Shield (+2 +5 pts)
May take any one of the following: GW (+4 +8 pts), extra HW (+3 +4 pts), or Halberd (+2 +4 pts)

Mount(one choice only)
Skeletal Steed..................15 14 pts.
~ Barding 5 pts.
Greater Carrion...................30pts
Fellbeast...........................185pts

Magic Items
Common/Nagash's Legion lists up to a total of...........50 pts.




Nagashi Captain - 65pts -

M 4 / WS 5 / BS 3 / S 4 / T 4 / W 2 / I 5 / A 3 / Ld 8

Equipment
-Hand Weapon
-Full Plate Armor(4+ armor save)

Special Rules
-Nagashi
-Captain of the Nagashi
Feared and respected by the Nagashi followers, they will not dare flee within his sight, for they know their bodies will be put to better use as the mindless undead
The Captain may join any unit in the Legion of Nagash . Any Nagashi unit joined by the Captain may re-roll any break tests they may have to make. He confers no benefits onto Undead units.

Options
May take a Shield (+2 pts)
May take any one of the following: GW (+4 pts), extra HW (+3 +4 pts), or Halberd (+2 +4 pts)

Mount(one choice only)
Skeletal Steed..................15 pts.
~ Barding 5 pts.
Arabian Warsteed...............30pts
Fellbeast...........................185pts


Magic Items
Common/Nagash's Legion lists up to a total of...........50 pts.




Reaper - 125pts (max one per 2000pts) -

Some would call the rats of Clan Eshin the deadliest assassins in the world. Many others would name these as the dreaded Druchii famed for their poisons and swift strokes, all are wrong, all pale in comparison to the dreaded Reapers of Nagash.

In the ages and centuries past many men have toyed with the art of Necromancy in vain hope of gaining immortality, few succeed however and when they die their spirits do not rest easy. Nagash summons the spirits of these men and binds them to his will arming them with deadly blades that cut both the victims soul and their mortal flesh. On the battlefield they are rarely seen but when called forth strike with a otherwordly strength and speed that few can match. Immune to the blades of mortals and nigh unstoppable they hunt the foe remorslessley until their destruction or their master sees fit to end the chase.

The most favoured of these Reapers are gifted with Rune forged blades capable of shatttering bones and poisoning minds with the slighest cut, truly they are to be feared by all who appose them.

These ethereal assassins are the vanguard of a Nagashi attack cutting down the enemies leaders and strategists before dissapearing into the wind leaving only dead in their wake.


M 6 / WS 6 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 3 / W 2 / I 4 / A 4 / Ld 8

Equipment
-Scythe - Great Weapon


Special Rules
-Undead
-Ethereal (may only join Undead units)
-Terror
-Harbringer of Death
Clad in dark shrouds these fell creatures are much more than normal wraiths. They are the bringers of death, charged by the Dark Lord himself to destroy those individuals who would stand in his way
Reapers have the Killing Blow special rule, however it works on a 6 to hit, not to wound. Additionally at the start of the battle chose one enemy character. The Reaper may re-roll any failed to hit rolls when fighting the chosen character.
The Reaper may not be the armies general nor confer his Ld on any unit he joins.

-Walk Between Worlds
The Reaper has the ability to walk in the world of spirits, making sure he reaches his target without delay
The Reaper may scout as per the BRB, however he cannout use this ability if mounted

Mount(one choice only)
Skeletal Steed............20 14 pts.

Magic Items
Common/Nagash's Legion Lists up to a total of..............100 pts.
May only choose items from Talismans and Enchanted Items sections as well as the “Reaper” Magical Weapons listed below.

The Blade of Souls - 100pts
As per the Legion of Nagash Magic Weapon list.

The Rendering Blade - 40pts
Barbed and jagged beyond reasoning, even a glancing blow from this weapon can rip a body in twain
Great Weapon. The Reaper has the normal Killing Blow rule in addition to his special Killing Blow rule i.e. he will effect a Killing Blow on a 6 to hit and a 6 to wound.

Great Divide - 40pts
This unwieldy scythe would seem to be far too cumbersome, however its strikes kill dragons and daemons in a single blow
Great Weapon - The Reaper gains Heroic Killing Blow. affects creatures of any size.

Unseen Death - 40pts
Light and as insubstantial as a ghost, this blade allows its wielder to attack with almost unmatched speed
Great Weapon - Bearer gains ASF and doubles their I in combat

Chill Touch - 35pts
The touch of the Reaper is deathly cold, sapping the strength and will to live of any foe it touches
Great Weapon. For every successful wound caused the enemy model permanently suffers a -1 to their S & T to a minimum of 1.

Spectral Blade - 35pts
This weapon has a life of its own, and can find its way past the stoutest parry, or defend from the strongest blows
Great Weapon. The reaper has +1 to hit. Also all enemies suffer -1 to hit when targeting the Reaper in Close Combat

Edit:
- Adjusted some costs to standardize based on Warriors of Chaos point costs
- Added in Heroic KB to Great Divide (just a reword to reflect new rules)
- Adjusted the Nagashi Captain option costs to Empire list
~ Bishop
/edit
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
OK, so changes I can see:

MP: As breath attacks are one use only anyway, can take off the One User Only on the Jar description
Zenith Prince: Fine
Nagashi Captain: Fine
Reaper: Great Divide - change to reference Heroic KB.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Any comments on these? If there are no replies shortly I will assume it is because there are no other changes needed.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
I'd leave the One Use Only (just for clarity), since it's NOT really a breath weapon. It's an item that acts like one.

I'll have to review the option costs for equipment and standardize them as I noticed that they are a bit out of whack on these ones too. Example, a horse should be the same cost for any normal "hero".

Great Divide change is fine, since that was the intent all along.

**

Okay, adjusted most of the point costs.

A couple of questions for the Nagashi Captain though...

  • 1) What are the rules for an Arabian Warhorse?
    2) What benefits, if any, will be gained by riding a Skeletal Steed?
Trying to figure out what to base the costs on and if they need to be adjusted at all...
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
Regarding Unseen Death, as ASF and the ASL using a great weapon would confer now cancel each other out, is the Reaper still supposed to ASF even with the great weapon or is he supposed to strike at normal I order but with I8(base I doubled)?
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Bishop said:
I'd leave the One Use Only (just for clarity), since it's NOT really a breath weapon. It's an item that acts like one......

Could we just not amend to be a breath weapon?

A couple of questions for the Nagashi Captain though...

  • 1) What are the rules for an Arabian Warhorse?
    2) What benefits, if any, will be gained by riding a Skeletal Steed?

An Arabian Warhorse is basically a normal horse, like the ones the Empire uses etc.
Skeletal steed - actually was we not thinking of not allowing mixing of heroes and units that were Nagasshi / Undead? In any case it is not a skeletal steed anymore, "Dead Horse" was voted through. Rules should be in the main thread.

Sweeney Todd said:
Regarding Unseen Death, as ASF and the ASL using a great weapon would confer now cancel each other out, is the Reaper still supposed to ASF even with the great weapon or is he supposed to strike at normal I order but with I8(base I doubled)?

Hmm, not sure on this. The idea was for him to strike first, even with his GW. Thoughts?
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
Disciple of Nagash said:
Sweeney Todd said:
Regarding Unseen Death, as ASF and the ASL using a great weapon would confer now cancel each other out, is the Reaper still supposed to ASF even with the great weapon or is he supposed to strike at normal I order but with I8(base I doubled)?

Hmm, not sure on this. The idea was for him to strike first, even with his GW. Thoughts?

I thought so too, seeing as the Reaper is an Assassin-equivalent character, and both the Skaven and Dark Elf version are pretty much intended to really Always Strike First with the special rule and a sky-high I value to go with it.

Since you intend for him to go first even with the great weapon, there are two ways to go about doing this. The first is to follow the HE example, and keep the current wording with the addition that the ASF will overwrite instead of being negated by great weapon status conferring ASL. The second is to simply not state it to be a great weapon, and have it be a magic weapon that grants +2S, ASF and doubles your I. Either one will achieve the intended rules effect.
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
True Blood
Aug 19, 2007
3,469
Chill Touch: Needs to get upped in cost. Its effectively the same as the WoC variant only even better now with addition of the myriad of new magic items and new spells. This needs to be closer to 50-60 points.

Spectral Blade combines a GW with Sword of Striking and -1 hit modifier in combat. Something you would pay more than 80points for. Adding to-hits is very good when you're adding S to it as well. Needs to cost more, syngergy with a character who cannot be hurt by anything other than magic + having VERY strong offence. 4 attacks is extremely good(on par with exalted champions who all have endured years, if not decades, in a life of battle, duels and trials). WS6 is also quite amazing for such a character. Then all these funky special rules just stacks up. 75pts sounds reasonable.

Unseen Death: I8 with a GW and ASF = infinite hatred + two handed ogre blade + ASF. Way to cheap at a mere 35pts. Should be near double that.

Just how many special rules can you put on a single model? This is a HERO level character with lord level allowence/semi-lord stats and doesn't pay for it. 125pts is a real bargain. I am struggling to see the point as to why this list needs this uber-hero.
Reaper with Spectral blade, Talisman of Preservation + the other tricksters shard or the Potion of Toughness. Clocks out at 220-225 points will tear the heart out of any hero level character it comes across and is likely to give most lords a run for their money as well.

I would probably extend this to Revenants as well(but to the point of them having an even better version of MotBA and so on). General case of the piling on of special rules. I can understand wanting to represent everything with special rules but sometimes you just gotta let the fluff be represented by the fact they have WS7 or whatever the rule might be. A level 4 wizard is a pretty damn strong wizard in his own right.

I hope this doesn't come across as harsh(I know you've put in work in this) but I hope to be able to convince my friends to play this some day(begun warming them up to the idea) but if I present an army with a gazillion special rules and in some cases "easy fixes"(by which I mean, easy access to wards, magic dice, weapons, special rules dampening the 'weakness of undead') it won't happend. If this post has come across as "This list is wack and so broken" it isn't want I am saying at all. Just feels like we might have tried to include too many ideas at once in some areas(for example, the hero section is fine bar for the, in my opinion, OP reaper).
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
I was under the impression that the Reaper couldn't get a save of any sort. Most likely I forgot to take into account the vastly expanded pool of Common Items available in 8ed.

The current costs for the Reaper-specific magic weapons are fine with the caveat that the Reaper has no save. This limitation is one that the other assassins share as well.

I do agree with Dancey, so for starters I'd say lower the Reaper's magic item allowance to 75 points and disallow it from taking anything from the Common Item pool.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
It's the expanded magic items list that causes the problem. The was a prevalent issue back in the days of 5th edition where ridiculous magic item combos caused the effect of playing "hero"hammer and not Warhammer!

Anyways, yes the Reaper is a very powerful assassin type character. As long as we remove its ability to get saves, it should be fine. (No Armour, Ward, Regen, or saves of ANY other kind are allowed).

I see the points made regarding some of the items being quite powerful, perhaps a slight points increase would be okay on some of them. Keep in mind that this character is T3 with only W2, will not have any saves at all and is quite limited by being Ethereal (iirc, Ethereals can only join other Ethereals... so that's another large point cost to consider).

Also, might be best to limit this character to 0-1 per army. Even amongst Skaven and Dark Elf armies it's rare to see more then a couple assassins, so seems more then reasonable to allow only one Reaper per army.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Ah Dancey - this is why I keep asking you to help with the army lists xd

Anyway, yes I agree entirely that the Reaper should have no saves of any kind whatsoever. His etherealness should be his save. In regards to limiting, I don't think we should limit one per army. In big games you should be able to take more than one. So I think 1 upto 2000pts, then additional 1 for every full 2000pts over that.

So with the above suggestions in mind, here is the amended Reaper:

Reaper - 125pts (max of one upto 2000pts, an additional one may be taken for every full 2000pts after that.) -

Some .........

M 6 / WS 6 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 3 / W 2 / I 4 / A 4 / Ld 8

Equipment
-Scythe - Great Weapon


Special Rules
-Undead
-Ethereal (may only join Undead units)
-Terror
-Harbringer of Death
Clad in dark shrouds these fell creatures are much more than normal wraiths. They are the bringers of death, charged by the Dark Lord himself to destroy those individuals who would stand in his way
Reapers have the Killing Blow special rule, however it works on a 6 to hit, not to wound. Additionally at the start of the battle chose one enemy character. The Reaper may re-roll any failed to hit rolls when fighting the chosen character.
The Reaper may not be the armies general nor confer his Ld on any unit he joins.

-Walk Between Worlds
The Reaper has the ability to walk in the world of spirits, making sure he reaches his target without delay
The Reaper may scout as per the BRB, however he cannout use this ability if mounted

Mount(one choice only)
Dead Horse............20 14 pts.

Magic Items
The Reaper may only choose one of the following weapons

The Blade of Souls - 100pts
As per the Legion of Nagash Magic Weapon list.

The Rendering Blade - 40pts
Barbed and jagged beyond reasoning, even a glancing blow from this weapon can rip a body in twain
Great Weapon. The Reaper has the normal Killing Blow rule in addition to his special Killing Blow rule i.e. he will effect a Killing Blow on a 6 to hit and a 6 to wound.

Great Divide - 40pts
This unwieldy scythe would seem to be far too cumbersome, however its strikes kill dragons and daemons in a single blow
Great Weapon - The Reaper's special Killing Blow will affect creatures of any size in the same way as the Heroic Killing Blow.

Unseen Death - 40pts
Light and as insubstantial as a ghost, this blade allows its wielder to attack with almost unmatched speed
Great Weapon - +2S, Bearer gains ASF and doubles their I in combat

Chill Touch - 35pts
The touch of the Reaper is deathly cold, sapping the strength and will to live of any foe it touches
Great Weapon. For every successful wound caused the enemy model permanently suffers a -1 to their S & T to a minimum of 1.

Spectral Blade - 35pts
This weapon has a life of its own, and can find its way past the stoutest parry, or defend from the strongest blows
Great Weapon. The reaper has +1 to hit. Also all enemies suffer -1 to hit when targeting the Reaper in Close Combat



The only things I have not changed is the magic weapons costs, - suggestions for actual points on these?
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
Was looking over the Reapers stat line, and I feel that it's Initiative is too low. A standard human hero has Initiative of 5. IMO, this is the MINIMUM In that the Reaper should have.

Most "assassins" in Warhammer have In10 and ASF base! Keep this in mind as well, when looking at the points cost. The fact that ASF is a separate upgrade that will also prohibit the use of other magical weapons.

In an effort to control the cost of Unseen Death, I'd suggest that the In doubling is dropped. This is easier to do if the base In on the Reaper is upped slightly.

What WoC item are you referring to Dancey? I know that there's the nurgle glaive, it reduces S and T to a fixed 2 (from anywhere, so I'd say that's MORE powerful then the item we've created, given that several wounds would have to occur or that to happen, after which time the enemy character is already likely to be dead anyways!)
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
True Blood
Aug 19, 2007
3,469
Now that you're no longer able to stack up other items with its innate abilities it isn't that much of a problem anymore. An ethereal killer roaming around with material magic items didn't sit well with me. Looks much better now.

Concerning the reapers Initiative, it is also undead. Undeath in warhammer, with the exception of vampires tend to be detrimental to both coordination and speed.

For the same-ish reason I dislike the Revenant. It is basically a vampire given a free ward save, ethereal, hatred, +1 attack, upgraded form of MotBA(flexible and is protected independantly on the death of whatever wizard), is a tomb king when it comes to magic(but also better). It is just too harsh to make these kind of close combat monsters untouchable by anything than magic(al attacks). A unit with no inherant weakness = broken in my book. Consider the effort it would take to bring unit down. Does it seem reasonable you'd have to hunt this character down with a Chaos Lord(or its equivalent)?

I can see why magic stuff not being costed as heavily given the random nature of magic in 8th. Especially for a list who's even more focused on magic.

Still, my chief concern remains. A fair bit much special rules on each unit and by that I mean useful special rules. There are times where many special rules doesn't matter. Like for example, take the Jabberslythe's rule of Acid Blood. It isn't particularly effective but it suits the model. Such rules I can see room for as they do add to the fluff of the army but when we use fluff to beef a unit up too many people(opponents) will not view them as fluffy but broken. A fan-made list already bear the stigma of all other broken/cheesey fanboy lists out there.

Yes, I that is the weapon I meant and I confess, I might have gotten a bit too caught up in my rant on that one.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
In regards to the Revenant I respect your views Dancey. However in this case I don't think it is something we should change, as it is not an issue with the change to the 8th edition, but the character itself. As it was voted through by majority, I think it should be playtested in its current form before other changes are made.
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
True Blood
Aug 19, 2007
3,469
It is made worse due to 8th and its expanded item list. More toys + 4+ ward and ethereal is funky stuff.

I was opposed to its current form before as well and basically entered the discussion too late. IE, it was voted through so my input was put on hold, so to speak(and gone now since it was in 7th ed threads).
To have anything "set in stone" before playtesting is not good, I think, because it impairs easy fixes which arise when you go through magic items, special rules and so on. An item might seem perfectly ok on its own when you put with a certain unit or whatnot it might just turn out to be not so on(just an example). So basically, I don't quite understand your point. The changes to 8th was quite pretty intense and calls for more than an update.

But once again, my appearence here is sporadic at best so I understand that you can't just change stuff willy-nilly. Even so, this particular change centers around something I know people will have a problem with as no one likes units who have no apparent weakness. Remember the outrage the DE HB with Pendant caused? Be prepared to face this with the revenant. Ethereals are dealt with magic weapons and isn't easy getting there with them. When they finally get there it has a 4+ ward protecting it ontop of which a very potent close combat fighter. To put in perspective with the DE lord, you were told to use low strength attacks to deal with it but then you faced the issue of a 1-2+ armour save.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
Well... it was voted through under the previous ruleset. The only things that should be changed are things which were affected by the core ruleset changes.

I agree that Unseen Death should probably be increased in point value. Something like 75 pts does not seem unreasonable to me. In fact, with the amendments to the Reapers options makes it very easy to figure out options. ie. it will only have one choice from this short list. 200 points for ASF, In8 (or higher) with WS6, S6 (and all its other abilities) still seems like a bargain!

Playtesting will clearly be required. These things will take a fair bit of it as well, since it would be very situational game-to-game.
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
The Reaper's magic weapon points could go up, but not by that much. The Reaper, being Ethereal, can hide in very few units, making it prone to getting picked off by magic. Secondly, it is more or less a mono-task unit, being good at killing one character and not much else. In a pinch it could act as a tarpit, but you need to hit, wound and kill with every single attack or start taking unsaveable wounds from static combat res. It shouldn't get all that expensive, especially as you'll likely need to pay more points for an Ethereal unit to act as an escort/delivery system.

i think Dancey is overreacting in regards to the Revenant. Firstly, the comparison to a vampire from the VC armybook is not entirely correct as the Revenant doesn't enable units within 6'' or 12'' to march. Both of the problems mentioned above in regards to the Reaper apply to the Revenant as well. When a Revenant starts taking magical hits a 4+ Ward save isn't all that great. Unlike the aforementioned DE lord, the Revenant can't get any type of armor saves so even S3 magical attacks are an issue. Perhaps its CC power can be tuned down a bit by reducing it to A4 instead, but that should be it. As it doesn't have access to magic weapons and armor, it's already a bit difficult to make it a true CC monster like Dancey suggests.
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
True Blood
Aug 19, 2007
3,469
Reaper;
I'd have to disagree on only being a character killer. Spectral blade makes it reliable in rolling to hit(2+ vs most units) and wounds on 2+ vs most units. You're likely to cast 3-4 wounds every round. Same goes for the Unseen death.

Concerning the Revenant;
You may very well be right, you all might be. I'm not expecting my comments to be taken as the truth or anything. However, I will try and defend my claims. As for a close combat monster, he is. Give it a GW and you have 5 S6 WS7 attacks with hatred and you haven't bought a single item. Now this in itself isn't all that earthshattering but when you factor in the vast majority of the units in game not being able to touch it, it does become an issue.

S3 magical attacks would rarely be an issue. Still would need 4/5s to hit and 5s to wound. Let's say you're facing a horde unit with S3(and 20mm). You'll at most get 7 attacks directed towards you(assuming the champion is there). Let's say they're WS4 and hit on 4s, half gone. 4 left. Let's say he's lucky and get 2 attacks in. 2 saves of which 1 is failed. However, on avarage it would be more like 0.4 wounds.
Though if this worries you, just pick the Sac Stone or Shadow Shard and you'll be fine, or just bring the healing potion and the shard. Fly off(and thereby avoiding the magic attacks) and heal up.

It is just when you make rock/paper/scissory units(like wraiths in VC or whatever really) there better be something that thoroughly beats it since you're effectively fielding a unit which negates a significant portion of your opponents army. Hell, the only unit in my Beastmen list that can wound it is my Beastlord.
If the same army have the Key to the Grey Vault(which, frankly is an "I win this combat"-button), I'd be screwed. Take a look at your own VC lists. You have your characters and your GG.

However, it does not make the army march. Very true but what it does do instead is, 1. Provides two reliable "spells", 2. Adds reliability to the magic phase as it guarantees 2 power dice to whichever wizard you would choose.
At 2500pts you can easily fit both a Revenant and Disciple of Nagash as the Revenant doesn't really need much in the ways of items to be effective.

If the revenant was more of a combat model and wasn't able to cast spells and enchance the magic phase while being ethereal, terror, hatred, AP, Free 4+ ward this wouldn't have been such an issue but right now it is like Vampire count crossed with a Tomb King and then given Ethereal and even more free toys. A naked VC count with MotBA and Spectral form is already at 305 points. A revenant gets a better MotBa, 4+ ward, +1 attack, hatred, Great weapon/AHW, Terror, AP, 2 'incantations' and costs 30 points less and haven't spent a single point on its magic item allowence.

I am comparing units across armies, I know but what we have here is not just marginal difference. Legion of Nagash is a more flexible army than VC almost every area and add some shooting to the mix. Just strike me as too much for too little.

Sometimes less is more.

Once again, this is just me at my harshest because I like the idea of this list and also the concept of Revenants/Reavers but yeah, the above comments speak for themselves. xD
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
In regards to the Reaper, I strongly feel with the revised changes he is ok. At least playtesting is needed before any more reduction in options or power is required.

As for the Revenant. I fully appreciate your comments, and see where you are trying to come from. However I think I should stress one point which I don't think I explained very well earlier:

Units will not currently be changed unless the changes are necessary due to the unit seriously being changed due to the 8th edition core rules change.

The reason for this is simple. Previously a group of people designed these rules, which were then also voted through by majority vote. This means I do not think it is right to then later ignore this. This is not just directed at you Dancey, it is a blanket rule for everyone.

One person, whether it is myself or anyone else should not overturn what a majority agreed on. It could mean that they were wrong and the rules were indeed OP, however this will show during playtesting. We will then hold another full review afterwards. Otherwise with everyone's opinions it can mean we are discussing forever, especially as new people come in with different opinions.
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
True Blood
Aug 19, 2007
3,469
Given the changes to magic I thought the 2 earlier points were very important. There are no such thing as "free" spells anymore, extra dice, channels and powers like MotBA has gotten significantly better. This in itself warrants some consideration, hence me bringing up the Revenant and its incantations but no matter, I've made my point above I think.

Like I said before, I do not expect you to change things willy-nilly.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Fair enough, I can see the cause for the concern for the magical side, due to the change to the 8th edition.

However I don't want to totally remove from the idea of the Revenant, which was supposed to have magical abilities, so not sure how to go about it...hmmm.

The legion is quite potent offensively, which the incantations add to. Would it perhaps be better if the Revenant generated an additional DD (1 or 2) instead of the PD?

In regards to the Rituals, I am not sure if you have seen the changes to them? They now require a pass roll, they are not automatic. The Revenant is only classed as a lvl 2 for casting purposed on them meaning he is not guaranteed to cast them.
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
Danceman said:
Reaper;
I'd have to disagree on only being a character killer. Spectral blade makes it reliable in rolling to hit(2+ vs most units) and wounds on 2+ vs most units. You're likely to cast 3-4 wounds every round. Same goes for the Unseen death.

I'll have to disagree here. You have 4 attacks, so including the To Wound rolls that's 8 rolls. The chance of one or more un-rerollable 1s appearing somewhere on any of these 8 dice is not insignificant. In addition to that, you're counting on the enemy unit failing all of their saves, armor, regen, parry or whatever. All of these conditions have to be fulfilled to even draw combat with a RnF unit, and if they have a musician you lose by 1 anyway.

The Reaper can hunt characters, small units, and if you give it the Great Divide you can add monsters to that list. It fails against anything else. And just getting it into position without getting blasted by spells first is another issue. I think you overestimate the Reaper.



@Dancey: DoN raises a good point. Directly comparing LoN Rituals to TK Incantations is also invalid as the Rituals are not auto-cast. In the case of the Revenant it will still need a 3+ on 1d6 to get a Ritual through.

I'd suggest reducing the Revenant magic bonus to +1PD/DD in the appropriate phases, raising its points cost a tad bit and testing it in that form.
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
True Blood
Aug 19, 2007
3,469
I think you overestimate the Reaper.

1. I should not be able to take on a ranked unit on its own. No characters in the undead army does this well due to unstability.
2. It will end unranked units w/o magic attacks with ease.
3. There are few monsters out there with magic attacks. w/o unit strength a monster is pretty much done for if it faces a Reaper. Maybe not through sheer killing power but due to being run down.
4. M6 and ethereal on a 20mm character and TLoS means it is not hard to stay out of harms way. The has a very real and strong potential for a very strong magic defence as well.
5. Hitting and wounding on 2+ is hard to overestimate. It makes me GG with GWs insanely when it works as does it with my TK who uses Fencer's Blades + Sacred Eye icon. Having a fast single model who can add 2-4 to the combat resolution with little chance of giving up any in return is invaluable for us undead.

But yes, it would appear I think this unit is some uber-death ray machine. That isn't the case at all and now since we've limited the model to one item I really don't have much of a problem with it anymore. Right now it is strong but not overly so as it has a well defined weakness.

I like the suggestion of +1PD/DD. It goes well with the fluff of his presence attracting magic.
 

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