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Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Right then, lets kick off the review. We are going to do this one thread at a time to hopefully ensure that we keep enough momentum going.

[mod]Important: This is not a chance or reason for members to change this purely because they "do not like them". These ideas and concepts have been worked upon for many years and voted through by a majority vote. Therefore respect will be shown for the previous work put in. This is to review the rules and ensure they work in the 8th edition, and the points are still correct. Only if there is a very good reason will other things be changed.[/mod]

So with that off my chest, lets start with the characters:

Lords

Zenith Lord - 310 300
M 4 / WS 6 / BS 0 / S 5 / T 6 / W 4 / I 5 / A 4 / Ld 10

Magic
The Dread Lord knows all four Rituals of Nagash and may cast one per magic phase. However he does not have access to the pool dice and does not count as a wizard in any other respect.

Equipment
-Hand Weapon
-Shield
-Full Plate Armor(4+ armor save)

Special Rules
-Undead
-Wight Blades
-Terror
-Implacable Will: Any unit which the Dread Lord joins may march move heedless of march block, or any other marching restrictions. In addition any unit subject to the Alive! special rule will become unbreakable, and any Undead unit will lose one less wound due to combat resolution, if joined by the Dread Lord.

Options
Great Weapon.................14 12 pts
Exchange shield for additional Hand Weapon.................12 8 pts
Lance(if mounted)...............18 8 pts
Shield..................... 10 pts

Mount(one choice only)
Skeletal Steed..................21 pts.
~ Barding 7 pts.
Greater Carrion...................30pts
Ancient Bone Dragon...........370pts
Dragon Shade....................300pts
Fellbeast...........................185pts


Magic Items
Common/Nagash's Legion lists up to a total of...........100 pts.





Disciple of Nagash - 260 pts

Amongst the most powerful of Nagash's servants are his loyal Disciples. To become one of the chosen few is an honour reserved only for the Mortuary Priests who possess the power and skills to become masters of the necromantic arts. Such skill only comes from hundreds of years of training and practise, they are all ancient beyond belief, a rare few even as old as the Great Necromancer himself.

Each is taught personally by Nagash himself in the ways of death, though none possess all the evil Liches knowledge. However even just part of the Dark Lords knowledge makes the Disciples terrible foes, able to lash flesh from bones with just a look, or command an army of dead that none can match save Nagash. They are also granted access to the remaining books of Nagash except the ninth. The secrets and power these books contain combined with the Disciple's already vast knowledge makes them truly unstoppable.

Once a Disciple has truly proved his loyalty and Nagash is assured that he will not be betrayed, a choice few are sent into the world. Masked by potent amulets they walk unnoticed in the lands of men, elves, dwarves and other creatures. Here they work as the shadowy agents of Nagash, working to create events that will benefit their Lord, whilst at all times ensuring any knowledge of the ancient Liche is destroyed. Thus the world has been lulled into a false sense of security, believing the stories are just that, little knowing the the Great Lord of Undeath is slowly growing in power once more, and when he marches to war once more he will do so with his trusted Disciples at his right hand side.


M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 4 / W 3 / I 4 / A 1 / Ld 9

Magic
A Disciple of Nagash is a Lvl 3 wizard. He may choose spells from either the Lore of Shadows, Death, or Nagash and may cast two Rituals of Nagash per turn.

Equipment
-Hand Weapon
-Scarab Jar: Strength 4 breath weapon.

Options
-May be upgraded to a Lvl 4 wizard for +35 pts.

Special Rules

-Undead
-Master of Undeath: The High Priest gains a +1 to cast spells from the Lore of Nagash.

Mount(one choice only)
Skeletal Steed..................21 pts.
~ Barding 7 pts.
Greater Carrion...................30pts
Ancient Bone Dragon...........370pts
Dragon Shade....................300pts
Fellbeast...........................185pts

Magic Items
Common/Nagash's Legion Lists up to a total of..............100 pts.
A Disciple of Nagash must choose one Book of Nagash as described in the Magic Item section. This does not count towards his magic item allowance.





Revenant...............275pts

Their will defies death itself, and though their bodies have long since rotted away, leaving not even bone, the souls of these heroes live on, trapped to the material realm.

Without a tomb to lay them at rest, they wander the world, perhaps haunting places of their slaughter, perhaps simply observing the world, or guarding artefacts . In form they appear as an insubstantial cloaked and robed figure, floating two feet above the ground, their faces the only remnant of their former visage. They are armored with metallic plate, hovering around their 'skin', this armor shifts to accommodate for blows, giving excellent protection. Being ethereal, the weapons they wield flow past armor, biting into the life-force of the victim, in this way they can become stronger, learning from their deceased victims.

A curious tendency to note is that they are attracted to dark-magic, this corrupts them, turning once noble soldiers into parodies, fallen angels. Cripple Peak is an almost irresistible lure and though possessed of free will, the promises of Nagash soon turn them to servants, some willing, the others not. Nagash teaches his favoured the secrets of his rituals, turning these powerful warriors into formidable battlemages.

To face one in combat is to face a soldier of incredible agility and speed, to flee is to watch a creature ignore terrain hazards and move indomitably on, scything down from the air, and turning ones fallen comrades against you. A vehement anger drives them on, a jealousy of freedom, or contempt of lesser races. Their presence on the battle field causes magical power to wax, as their absorbed dhar reinvigorates fellow magic users.

They are the Revenants, Lords of the Spirit World, Generals of Nagash.


M 5 / WS 7 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 3 / I 6 / A 5 / Ld 9

Magic
The Revenant knows all four Rituals of Nagash and may cast two per magic phase. For the purposes of casting Rituals and dispelling the Revenant counts as a Level 2 wizard, however he cannot roll for any spells. This magic level can be reduced by items / spells that affect magic levels. Note however the removal of a magic level does not in anyway affect how many Rituals the Revenant knows.

Equipment
-Hand Weapon
-Floating Armour (Described below)

Special Rules
-Terror
-Undead
-Ethereal
-Hatred
-Unseen Death
The Revenants blade belongs to the world of spirits and death, its sharp edge cannot be seen but those struck by its cold edge feel it nonetheless.
All attacks made by the Revenants mundane weapons have the armour piercing special rule. Note this is classed as an ability of the Revenant and not the weapon and thus cannot be negated.
-Magical Aura
Each Revenant on the board adds two power dice in the appropriate magic phases to the armies pool.

Options
Great Weapon.................8 pts.
Additional Hand Weapon.................8 pts.

Magic Items
-Floating Armour - Magic Armour
The plates of ancient armour float atop the spirit form of Revenant, shifting and moving to protect its wearer as best as possible.
Confers a 4+ ward save
-Common/Nagash's Legion lists up to a total of...........100 pts. The Revenant may not choose a magic weapon or armour.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Hmm, well to be honest I can't really see much myself that needs changing in this. It all still seems to work, though perhaps the points need looking at?
 

Wiggins

Ghoul
Jun 23, 2010
154
If the rituals mentioned are bound spells (like prayers and so on), then I'm pretty sure the Zenith for instance now needs access to the pool dice.

The "One use Only" on the Scarab Jar seems redundant. Possibly doesn't need to be an item anymore to reflect that.

Why is the Revenant not allowed magic weapons or armour?
Like a wight king, taking weapons includes a downside for him (lose armour piercing).
Likewise just make it clear that he loses the floating armour if another magical armour is taken.
 

Capt Rubber Ducky

Vampire Count
True Blood
Jun 9, 2009
1,547
Wiggins said:
Why is the Revenant not allowed magic weapons or armour?

Please see Disciple of Nagashs' note (in mod writing) at the top of this page. I can't remeber why but feel free to check the first concept thread for them.

I think they are fine really, maybe extend the ammount of arcane items the Revenant past dispell scrolls to some of the other new common arcane items as well.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Wiggins said:
If the rituals mentioned are bound spells (like prayers and so on), then I'm pretty sure the Zenith for instance now needs access to the pool dice.

Hmm, they did work like previous bound spells, however that will now need changing. They are meant to be like TK bound spells, i.e they don't need PD. What are the current rules for the TK spells?

The "One use Only" on the Scarab Jar seems redundant. Possibly doesn't need to be an item anymore to reflect that.

Ah yes because of the new breath special rule. The Scarab Jar doesn't actually use up any slots, so there is no need to remove it as an item is there?

Why is the Revenant not allowed magic weapons or armour?
Like a wight king, taking weapons includes a downside for him (lose armour piercing).
Likewise just make it clear that he loses the floating armour if another magical armour is taken.

I believe it was because some of the possible combinations. However this may be something we need to consider. The 8th edition has brought some really good items, so actually not having access to them may be a major downside, unlike the not having access in the previous edition.

I think that perhaps we should reconsider it? Thoughts?
 

Capt Rubber Ducky

Vampire Count
True Blood
Jun 9, 2009
1,547
I think having loads of auto casts as well as normal magic will be far too powerful now with reduce dice. I think they should still have to roll one dice (from pool) and add there level to it to determine the power level of it. Giving them lots of auto casts gives them a reliable magic phase which hardly any other army has and the tomb kings don't have a normal phase on top of theres.

I though the revenant was not allowed magic weapons for fluff reasons rather then power. I'd prefer to keep it that way but maybe give his basic weapons a boast stat wise
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Ok, we need to discuss the rituals in details elsewhere, however I do agree that autocasting for free can be unfair. So working on the assumption we are going to use the main PD pool somehow, shall we agree that all of the above characters now access the main PD pool. We just need to add in stipulations, so for the Wight King, he can only access it for his rituals etc.

What did you have in mind for the Revenants boosted weapons? Would it be too over powered for them to entirely cancel out armour saves?
 

Capt Rubber Ducky

Vampire Count
True Blood
Jun 9, 2009
1,547
Disciple of Nagash said:
Ok, we need to discuss the rituals in details elsewhere, however I do agree that autocasting for free can be unfair. So working on the assumption we are going to use the main PD pool somehow, shall we agree that all of the above characters now access the main PD pool. We just need to add in stipulations, so for the Wight King, he can only access it for his rituals etc.

There's no limit on what can use the pool now is there? Non wizards can have bound spells...

I was also thinking about letting them split a powerdice over 2 bounds (they roll the powerdice add there wizard level then evenly split the result over 2 rituals if the can cast 2) e.g Disiple of Nagash (lvl 4) rolls a 4, 4+4 = 8, 8/2= 4, 2 seperate bounds cast power level 4

I was thinking ignore armour saves but I think that is too much, but how about he keeps armour piercing special rule but opponents also have to reroll succsesful armour saves.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
Should revisit the army-wide rules first really!

Everything Undead should be Unstable (to be consistent).

Might want to revisit the Lore of Nagash before looking at the actual casters... if any change is even needed? Keeping in mind that the other army-specific Lores were not changed at all.

When re-doing characters and options, lets correct the point-costs to be consistent with the "norm". ie. the Zenith Lord options for GW, Lance and 2nd Hand weapon should all be the same point cost. (whatever you decide? maybe compare to a Chaos Lord, and use that).

Disciples +1 to cast is probably mostly redundant...

For the Rituals, see quoted text and comments below.

Tomb Kings FAQ v1.1 said:
Page 34-35 – Using Nehekharan Incantantions
Change the first paragraph to “Liche Priests and Liche High
Priests are treated as Wizards, with a Wizard Level of 1 and 3
respectively. However they don’t have the ability of channeling
power dice in their own Magic phase. They channel dispel dice
as normal in the enemy Magic phase.

Change the fourth & fight paragraphs to “The Incantation
chosen is automatically cast, without using any power dice from
the pool. The casting result for the opponent to dispel is
determined by rolling 2D6 in the case of a Priest’s Incantation,
and 3D6 in the case of a High Priest. Note that these are not
power dice, and are not affected by things that affect power
dice. Also, these totals cannot be modified (either up or down),
except for the Staff of Mastery (see page 39).”

“The rules for irresistible force and miscasts do not apply to
Incantations. Also, they are cast even if the total rolled for the
casting value is less than 3. In all other respects, Incantations
are treated as normal spells. For example, they can be destroyed
by enemy magic items, spells, etc. that destroy spells, which
would affect the Liche Priest making him unable to use that
Incantation for the rest of the game.”

Should be able to work from this :D

Might need to tone down the "number" of spells castable per turn. Else LoN will dominate the Magic Phase (probably even more then originally intended).
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Ok I agree - we need to sort out the basic rules & magic before doing this :redface:

So I will lock this thread and will come back to it once we are ready

[mod]Thread temporarily locked[/mod]
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
[mod]Thread Unlocked[/mod]

I think we're ready to start discussing these now.

Zenith Lord: I think he works fine. Now we have fixed the rituals there is no longer a question of that as a roll is required, and as he has no casting level, he only has a 1/3 chance of getting it off which is fine to me.

His other rules seem fine, as Bishop said the points for his items need adjusting, which I have no idea on xd


Disciple of Nagash: Again everything fine. We can remove the one use only as that is a set rule in the BRB now anyway. I still think we should keep the +1 to cast from the Lore of Nagash still. It was included in his points cost, and the +1 can still be helpful.


Revenant: Everything fine except I agree that he should have access to the other arcane items. I also suggest classing him as level 2 wizard purely for casting rituals and dispelling.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
Standardized the Zenith Lord options using a Chaos Lord as a reference point (the closest thing I could find). Dropped points down to reflect making the shield optional, as there are generally no options to swap/drop equipment for most other characters.
 

Sweeney Todd

Master Vampire
True Blood
Mar 9, 2008
4,034
Singapore
Actually, since the Rituals do require PD to cast, I think removing their ability to channel is a needless nerf as they are now no different from every other army when it comes to magic. I know this would require that DoN rework the Snuff(COCAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAINE!) in the other thread, but that isn't really a problem.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Yes, but the PD is "free", it doesn't come from the pool. So that's why the ability to channel is removed to balance it out.
 

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