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LoN: Update to 8th Edition (VC Book): Core

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#1
This thread is to discuss the core units in the LoN army list.

Here is the list we're starting with:-

Disciple of Nagash said:
Core

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Skeletons - Points/model: 6 - Updated to 8th Edition
As per VC except may take a magical banner worth upto 40pts


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Nagashi Zombies: 4pts per model

M4 / WS1 / BS0 / S2 / T3 / I1 / A1 / Ld4

Special Rules:
Nagashi Undead
Regeneration 6+

Horde of Death
Whilst an individual zombie is a poor opponent, when enough gather together they can be a fearful for as the push and claw in an unending orgy of bloodshed. Such are ease with what these weak undead are sustained, their destruction has little effect on the ebb of magic across the battlefield
Zombies always fight in one extra rank than they would normally be allowed to. For example if they could normally fight in two ranks to the front, they would fight in three. If in Horde formation, they would be able to fight in four. The includes fighting to the flank or rear, so if charged in the rear, two ranks would be able to fight back.

In addition when working out crumbling where a unit of zombies is involved, the number of wounds caused to zombies do not count to working out wounds inflicted on non-zombies units. For example:

Enemy inflicts 4 wounds on zombies, two on skeletons, 2 ranks = 8CR
Zombies inflict no wounds, skeletons cause 2 wounds, two ranks and flank = 5CR

Result is 2 wounds caused by Crumbling. 2 wounds are taken off any zombie units involved. However for the remaining non-zombie LoN units deduct the wounds caused on the Zombies (4 in this case). This means no other crumbling wounds are caused, however the enemy still counts as winning combat that wound for all other purposes.


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Nagashi Cultists - 7 pts./model - Updated to 8th Edition
Though ranked low in the plans of Nagash, these mortals follow him without question. The belief they have in their Dark Lord lends them a fanatical fury which they vent on those who would defy their god and master.

Cultist..... M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 4 / A 1 / Ld 7
Champion: M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 4 / A 2 / Ld 7

Unit Strength: 10-25

Equipment
Morning Star and Heavy Armour

May choose the following equipment upgrades (costs are per model):
Flails +1pts

Options:
-Any unit may upgrade one Cultist to a Musician for +5 pts.
-Any unit may upgrade one Cultist to a Champion for +10 pts.
-Any unit may upgrade one Cultist to a Standard Bearer for +10 pts.
-Any unit may give their Standard Bearer a magic banner of up to 40 pts.

Special Rules
Frenzy
Nagashi

N.B: If the army does not contain a Nagashi Captain, a cultist unit does count towards the minimum core percentage.


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Favoured Ones - 8 pts./model - Updated to 8th Edition

On the slopes of Nagahsizzar reside a a foul breed of humans. They swore themselves to Nagash long ago, and their ritual sacrafices to him long ago turned into macabre feasts of flesh and blood. Despite their cannabalism driving these foul ghouls insane, they still retain a low cunning and intelligence enough to use weapons. When Nagashs legions march to war, they follow in its wake, prowling along the flanks of his armies, hunting down their next meal.

Favoured One....... M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 4 / W 1 / I 3 / A 2 / Ld 7
Greater Fiend....... M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 4 / W 1 / I 3 / A 3 / Ld 7

Unit Strength: 5-20

Equipment
-Claws
-Throwing Spears

Options:
-Any unit may upgrade one Favoured One to a Greater Fiend for +7pts.

Special Rules
Nagashi
Skirmishers
Poisoned Attacks (also applies to thrown weapons)

The Dark Feast
The feasting of flesh is an honour to the Dark Lord, and none would deny the Favoured Ones their chance to show their devotion. In battle any they killed are devoured where they fall, an act that not even Dreadlords of Nagash would dare interfere with.
The Favoured Ones cannot pursue or overun. In addition no characters may join any units of Favoured Ones.


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Black Riders of Nagash - Updated to 8th Edition

Riding ahead of the vast undead hosts of Nagash, these human followers of the Dark Lord spread fear and confusion to those that would oppose them

Black Rider of Nagash - 14pts per model
Rider......M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 4 / A 1 / Ld 7
Steed....M 8 / WS 3 / BS 0 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 3 A 1 / Ld 5

Equipment:
Flails

Options:
Each rider may be equipped with Shrunken Heads for +2pts per model

Shrunken Heads
Theses terrible weapons are the shrunken heads of those that fight the Dark Lord's plans. Though not powerful, the fear and horror they create can be just as effective
Thrown Weapon. 8” range. 2x shots. Str2 and causes panic check when they wound.

Special Rules
Nagashi
Fast Cavalry

NB: Black Riders do not count towards minimum core percentage.
Immediate thoughts:-

Need to update the points cost for skeletons if they are to stay the same as the VC book & discuss whether other units need costs revising.

Revise costs for command models.

Remove the 'do not count towards minimum core' note & review unit sizes.

Important points:-

Do the units work without support? Characters, Standards, etc, should be there to improve the unit's effectivness, not make it viable.

Does the unit fluff still work? Could there be improvements without disrupting the feel of the unit?


Should be enough to get us started :thumbsup:
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#2
Marius:

I think the Core section is what we should really start with as well as far as units go.
I know I have not been part of the original creation process here, but I do have a small list of suggestions and comments:

As Nagash's legions consisted mostly of Skeletons, I think something needs to be done to reflect this in the list, and as there are not an overwhelming number of core/Special/Rare entries, I have some suggestions of how to possibly bring this across, without sacrificing any of the other unit entries (a couple could possibly be moved up into Special if need be).

I'd suggest making Skeletons a bigger part of the Core section, and to do this, some more skeleton units are needed first of all. As Nagash's armies are based on pretty ancient history, how about introducing more of a skeletal "legion", with "skeleton legionnaires" (spearmen) as the core, perhaps supported by skeleton javelin skirmishers/naphta throwers (a normal tactic in ancient times was to use such units to support and draw forth enemies from the enemy battle-line and so on. If people think this sounds like a good idea, I'd be happy to provide some alternate Skeleton rules etc for the project.

As for the existing Core stuff:

-Nagashi Zombies -

I think the zombies by and large look ok, but I think the Horde of Death special rule becomes a little complicated, especially as a game drags on and you get tired etc. I am however on-board with an idea which reduces casualties if units team up with zombies due to the unstable rule.
To separate the list a bit from the VC one (which has turned into a bit of a zombie horde in 8.ed), could it be an idea to let zombies be a "summon only" unit in the list? I think it fits the fluff (Nagash Triology), as the zombies used to get picked clean by crows and other vermin after a while in any case, turning them into Skeletons, and I assume any Legion of Nagash would have some travelling to do wherever they were to engage in battle (an assault on Nagashizzar seems bloody unlikely). It might also help balance out the superior magic of the army, in the sense that if the army has superior magic too the VC army, combined with "better Zombies", and especially a similar summoning spell to IoN (area of effect), then the shit will really hit the (proverbial) fan as they say..

-Nagashi Cultists -

Looking at the Nagashi Cultists, my first impression is that they might actually be somewhat cheap (comparing them with Empire State Troops here), as they have good equipment and good special rules/synergy with the characters, as well as above average stats (I4).
Love the fact that they have Morning Stars (not often seen in the game), but I'm having problems seeing Nagash ordering whomever the smiths are at Nagashizzar, to start making Heavy armour for living, expendable troops.
This is actually one of the units that I think have most potential, but I also think it belongs in the Special section of the list. They are not that far from Empire Flagellants when you look at the synergy, and they are a Rare choice after all.
In addition to this, if they belonged in the Special Section, I have some more ideas for them that could make them valuable assets as far as contributing to the army's magical abilities overall, but I can't justify this in a Core Option.

- Favoured Ones -

The cost of them become incredibly cheap, considering they are Nagashi (stubborn), and can be affected by the general's LD as well as the BSB. This will in most cases give them much more staying power than normal Crypt Ghouls (which I also have to say I despise the rules for in the 8.ed book, just so you know my view is influenced by this fact as well), which pretty much leaves the Skirmish ability as a bonus only.
Not sold on the Throwing Weapons idea, but that is because I imagine they have the same-sized claws as normal ghouls etc, in which case wielding any throwing weapons would be very hard, if not outright impossible.
Never liked the Skirmish idea that existed on ghouls, as I imagine ghouls operating more in closely-knit packs to overwhelm their enemies (having short reach with no weapons and all), combined with their natural cowardice (which is always present in the fluff, yet never represented in the rules), would make them stay close together, much like the skaven.
As they stand, they are a terrible effective main battle-line unit, and considering that the Crypt Ghouls now are 10 pts/model in the 8.ed list (not that the comparison carries that much weight in itself since the favored ones are Undead as opposed to living troops), but still..
I think they need some modification, to prevent them from becoming too dominant in the main battle-line itself, even though they are skirmishers. As they stand, I think they are more of a Special Choice (not that there is anything wrong with that).
One cannot forget one of the major changes from 7.ed to 8.ed, is the effect of the BSB, which all living troops benefit greatly from.

- Black Riders of Nagash -

Quite like this unit, but I think there could be some more fluff to them.. Who are these people whom willingly bow to Nagash? Why do they do it if they are not seeking his knowledge? The land around Cripple-Peak was long ago made petty uninhabitable too humans (at least if they wished to stay humans), so I imagine they have to come from somewhere else etc.

Quite like their rules for them, there are only two small possible issues. The first one is the I4 (combined with Flails), as I don't see any justification for this based on the little fluff there is, and could very easily be vieved as a fail-safe to get the potent flail attacks in before they bite the dust (against you average opponent at least). With I4, they are almost as intimidating as Chaos Marauder Horsemen, but I can't imagine most people flocking to Nagassizzar to be of that physical caliber so to speak.
The second thing is that with the Fast Cav rule and the Nagashi (Stubborn) rule, they can become a Very cheap way of Negating any opponent missile fire, as you get the Vanguard to help you with that first round charge, and this, combined with being Stubborn, can really wreck havoc on any army depending on their shooting. This should be considered in their costs at least.


Overall, because of the Nagashi rule, there are many units in the Core section that get access to the Stubborn special rule, wherever they are on the table, and with such tough general options such as the Zenith Lord (T6, 4 Wounds) or some of the special characters, there is really very little chance that they will loose this rule, and probably not until the have done what you expected them to do in the first place. I think this needs to be looked at and at the very least be taken into account when the cost of units are considered and so on.
Just take a look at the empire army, and most other armies for that matter, it is not usual to get access to Stubborn at the Core stage (Steadfast not included here off course).

In addition to fixing the Command Point Cost, so that it follows the 8.ed "Standard", it would also be helpful (or more accurate at least) if Unit Type was also listed, as that is now common.

The most important thing though, after thinking some more about it, is to get the army special rules balanced before going on with the Core.

When you really think about it, what we have now is:
-A whole "living" part of the army basically affected by a "free" Crown of Command (and since these are Core you don't need any undead at all)...
-The living component is both better at moving (marching) as well as fighting, and also have lots more staying power in a fight.
-The few elite undead units (Pinnacle guard & Pinnacle Knights first and foremost) that are playable, will most likely also be able to march as they cn be joined by characterw which allows them too, i.e. an "Undead" army with little to no marching issues at all.
This is as it now stands, in no way a balanced army in my opinion.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
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27,916
#3
Uziel - Your comments are great, but just a reminder about the fluff. I appreciate you have a difference of opinion, but the fluff has been discussed to death previously. We will never actually complete the Legion if we constantly keep on reviewing the fluff.

Marius - This is one area where I did want to start, however if you could check before starting new discussions?

I don't want to discourage anyone from joining in, but 4 years worth of experience in leading this project has showed that there are certain ways to best do this - I hope this is not insulting to anyone xD

So in regards to the above:

Skeletons - I think we should bring in line with the current VC for the basic versions. I do agree that we need some more core choices, the idea of extra skeleton units sounds interesting - certainly it would be good to see what units you have in mind.

Nagashi Zombies - I don't see any need to remove them from the list and make them raise only. That said, I do agree that the Horde of Death rule is over complicated. In line with the idea that the Nagash troops are summoned by superior magics, why not make these zombies tougher than the VC ones? We could give them an extra point of toughness (T4), and adjust the points to match, the just drop the Horde of Death rule.

Cultists - Fluff reasons aside (which I have to say I disagree with. There are mentions of underground cults that worship Nagash, humans will worship anything powerful), one of the main concepts (which I forgot to mention on the other thread) was the inclusion of human elements as well.
The stats were reviewed for the cultists for the 8th, and I am not sure if they changing with the release of the VC book.
I can see the point about the increased Initiative, it should be line with normal humans, so that should be dropped. Other than that I don't see them as such a big issue. I certainly don't see the need to remove them from core, though if you have alternate points suggestion please say so?

Favoured Ones - Again fluff concepts aside on this. These are meant to be different from VC Ghouls, and also have them as alive which in reality Ghouls should be. I agree that their points cost needs revision, though it is hard to say whether they are better or worse that Crypt Ghouls. Remember that this unit cannot benefit from healing / movement spells that benefit the undead, and they also have a big downside in that no characters can join and support them, nor can they pursue.
With that in mind I don't see them as costing more than normal Crypt Ghouls, maybe the same.

Black Riders - Again, agreed about the Initiative. In regards to the stubborn Nagashi rule, this was the next thread I wanted to discuss before the core, I will open a thread on the army wide rules.

Overall I think you have overestimating how potent the army is. Certainly some of the points cost need reviewing, but I do not think it is as broken as suggested.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
2,887
#4
I think that the army wide rules need to be solidified before making unneeded changes in here.

The Nagashi rule is one that could change. Stubborn is perhaps too powerful to be granted to soo many units in the list.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#5
Disciple of Nagash said:
Uziel - Your comments are great, but just a reminder about the fluff. I appreciate you have a difference of opinion, but the fluff has been discussed to death previously. We will never actually complete the Legion if we constantly keep on reviewing the fluff.

I don't want to discourage anyone from joining in, but 4 years worth of experience in leading this project has showed that there are certain ways to best do this - I hope this is not insulting to anyone xD
I really don't wan't to insult anyone DoN, and If I do, that is certainly not my intention, and I apologize.
As to the fluff issue, I was not complaining about any of the fluff that was there, but rather asking for more of it for the Nagashi Cultists/Dark Riders/Necrophytes, whom there is next to nothing on at all. There is actually not any fluff on the Necrophytes, and there is 3.5 lines in total divided between the Dark Riders and The Cultists. My point is that there is just to little fluff to justify staying "true" to this as making any kind of sense, as what little there is leaves one with a lot more questions than answers. I think, because there is so little fluff, that we have more of a leeway with these units than many others.

Disciple of Nagash said:
Skeletons - I think we should bring in line with the current VC for the basic versions. I do agree that we need some more core choices, the idea of extra skeleton units sounds interesting - certainly it would be good to see what units you have in mind.
I'm 95% complete with a somewhat new skeleton concept idea for the Legion, or at least the actual Legionnaires themselves. I'll finish the support units (cohorts) associated with it shortly. I'll post it when we continue on this thread proper. It is a bit unconventional though, but I think it will make Skeletons a whole lot more fun to put on the table, and they will give us some interesting new tactical options as well as clearly seperating them from the VC/TK Skeletons. They are more "Elite", but with some built-in drawbacks preventing them crossing this line.

Disciple of Nagash said:
Nagashi Zombies - I don't see any need to remove them from the list and make them raise only. That said, I do agree that the Horde of Death rule is over complicated. In line with the idea that the Nagash troops are summoned by superior magics, why not make these zombies tougher than the VC ones? We could give them an extra point of toughness (T4), and adjust the points to match, the just drop the Horde of Death rule.
There is admittedly no need to remove them as such, but it might help balance things out, IF we take some steps to mitigate their use, depending on how our superior magic will work, and we have more dangerous zombies as well. I have nothing against Nagash having somewhat superior zombies, nor magic, but it needs to work in a game as well, and if we start with X number of superior Zombies on the gaming table, this combination could become very powerful (even more so than in the VC list).
One Idea I had was that we could introduce a "Slave" unit, basically people captured by slavers in various raids etc, that were brought to Nagashizzar to work (doing things the undead are not that good at), and when spent, adding to the ranks of undead.
This unit could easily be represented my Mantic's zombies, both as humans in filthy rags etc, as well as after they hads been slain in the game, and raised again as zombies.
Admittedly, this has not been done before, so I am not entirely sure how it would work as far as rules go in an actual game, but I think it would bring a bit of a new Dimension to the LoN, as compared with the VC/TK armies.
That said, if this is not something that I can convince people that it is a good idea, then we drop it. Simple as that.

Disciple of Nagash said:
Cultists - Fluff reasons aside (which I have to say I disagree with. There are mentions of underground cults that worship Nagash, humans will worship anything powerful), one of the main concepts (which I forgot to mention on the other thread) was the inclusion of human elements as well.
The stats were reviewed for the cultists for the 8th, and I am not sure if they changing with the release of the VC book.
I can see the point about the increased Initiative, it should be line with normal humans, so that should be dropped. Other than that I don't see them as such a big issue. I certainly don't see the need to remove them from core, though if you have alternate points suggestion please say so?
There is a lot of potential fluff agreed, it is just not a whole lot to work with in the unit description. Two sentences I believe.
I think the human element is a very good one too, but it needs more concrete fluff in my view.
My opinion of why they were too good to be core, was because of the Stubborn issue from the general's ability. Without stubborn or Unbreakable, they are certainly a Core option.
This said though, I think Cultist could certainly justify having Stubborn by themselves (and paying for it normally), but that they would then be a Special Choice.
Also, I had a look at the Flagellants (who admittedly has perhaps more of an Insane issue going for them), and depending on whom these cultists are, or have been before coming to nagashizzar, there could be some justification for some stat changes etc. Ws to name one, as I imagine that most non-soldier/trained warrior actually have a WS of 2.

Not saying any changes are required, but If people agree, I'd be happy to do give them some more work, including lots of more fluff. Admittedly, I personally do picture them more as a Special Choice though (based on the ideas I have and their role in the list that I Imagine for them). Or we could leave them as they are.

Disciple of Nagash said:
Favoured Ones - Again fluff concepts aside on this. These are meant to be different from VC Ghouls, and also have them as alive which in reality Ghouls should be. I agree that their points cost needs revision, though it is hard to say whether they are better or worse that Crypt Ghouls. Remember that this unit cannot benefit from healing / movement spells that benefit the undead, and they also have a big downside in that no characters can join and support them, nor can they pursue.
With that in mind I don't see them as costing more than normal Crypt Ghouls, maybe the same.
I love the fact that they are different DoN, especially the living part. Did just the same for the Legacies project. Sometimes GW can simplify things to the extreme, thus ruining units so that the rules don't match the fluff at all.
Well, my initial assessment here was very influenced by the fact that they would most likely have been Stubborn, with LD 10 and a BSB-re-roll.. This is no longer the issue though, so things are looking far better.
Personally I don't think they should be able to benefit from the Hold your Ground! ability, as they are too similar to animals to truly care about what a standard represents.
Admittedly though, as they are Skirmishers, they could also become a bit too vulnerable in close combat with no rank bonus and no bsb re-roll.
I'd change the throwing weapons to something else to make them stand out a bit from "normal" ghouls. Magical Resistance (1) could be reasonable. They have been exposed to warpstone dust for ages after all. Hatred (Skaven) as well, this based on the Nagash Triology, and how the Skaven targeted them. Maybe Swiftstride or Strider. I imagine they're quite good at moving quickly about in various terrain, even though they have WS 4. Lots of stuff we could do.
All in all though, a much better unit with the AoE Steadfast gone.

Disciple of Nagash said:
Black Riders - Again, agreed about the Initiative. In regards to the stubborn Nagashi rule, this was the next thread I wanted to discuss before the core, I will open a thread on the army wide rules.
Check. I'd suggest more fluff or this unit though. Otherwise I have no issue with it.

Disciple of Nagash said:
Overall I think you have overestimating how potent the army is. Certainly some of the points cost need reviewing, but I do not think it is as broken as suggested.
With the Stubborn Aura that was (before the fix), I saw a whole host of very, very good army compositions, far exceeding what their point cost or status as Core troops should reflect. This was what I was mainly referring too when I said the army was not balanced. This, and the fact that the army doesn't have much in the way of some concrete weaknesses (or those that is has seems too easily overcome).

This has now bean dealt with however, and I think we have taken a big step towards a more balanced force which is much easier to work with as far as units go.
One has to keep in mind, that competitive players will often "abuse" a list as far as they can be allowed to, and it is the limits on their excess which truly help bring balance to a list.
 

The Dread King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
1,897
#6
First off, I'd like to see some new skeleton units.

Zombies-why should they have 6+ regen? I know they have access to spare parts, but the point about zombies is that they DEgenerate, not REgenerate! Walking corpses aren't any more survivable than walking bones; I don't think that they should be able to regrow, even with dark magic-if regeneration could be granted via dark magic to fleshy things, why not to bony things? If zombies can regenerate, there's no reason why pinnacle guard shouldn't be able to regenerate. I don't think zombies should be able to regenerate.

Favoured ones-I think that just because they're animal doesn't mean they won't be brave when they see a big, magic flag (all battle standards of undead are magical otherwise they wouldn't stop the undead from losing models to CR).

Cultists-these should be expanded upon. I think that the core cultists shouldn't et many ld bonuses + init and ws buffs. Also they should lose flails. There should be a new special choice-initiated cultists-who are the cultists that got more skilled and then saw Nagash and went crazy. This division is to divide the ordinary cultists from the fanatical psychos.
Core cultists shouldn't be initiative 4.
The initiated cultists- that got blessed by Nagash and went crazy to serve him-should be a bit like flagellants. They should have elite man-type profile, with flails added on, stubborn/unbreakable, unlosable frenzy and 6+ ward save (this is like savage orc warpaint special rule), they have so much faith in Nagash that their faith protects them from the most powerful of strikes). I still think that core cultists should be weapon skill 3-after all, they were trained in Nagashizzar!
I can post the rules and fluff for the initiated cultists-I created this unit for my own LoN campaign.
Alternatively, you could only have core cultists (or make them special) and have them a bit like chaos warriors are-how much difference is there between evil people that worship some gods stuck in another realm and people that worship Nagash, the Supreme Lord of Undeath.

Slaves-basically living zombies that don't have stubborn. A bit like skavenslaves except a bit more powerful; they should have cruel spirits/cultists whipping them to make them move (like packmasters). They should be around M4 WS2 BS2 S2 T2 W1 I2 A1 Ld5. They aren't proper fighters, just slaves that have survived captivity for a time. They could even be a swarm unit!
I could post the profiles for slaves- they weren't in my project but I have a general idea for them.

Souleaters-they didn't end up as monstrous cavalry, and I hate to annoy people, but I had souleaters on foot in my LoN campaign. If they were used in the core as things slightly better than your average empire soldiers, then they could be quite cool.
I can post the profiles for the souleaters too-they were in my LoN campaign.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#7
skeleton Units: Coming soon.

Zombies: I agree on the Regeneration issue. It's not bad from a game balance perspective, but I think it is a rule that doesn't fit at all from a fluff perspective. Even just a Ward Save would be better. I don't know how many of you, or indeed IF any at all, have taken a look at the Bloodline Legacies Project, but I created a Dead Flesh special rule, which basically made it hard for low strength attacks to really kill zombies, while higher strength attacks would be very hard for them too handle.
While a human with a spear, sword or bow might struggle to find the "killing" spot on a zombie so to speak, an something Like an Ogre og Black Orc would just smash it beyond recognition with each single hit, thus not really needing to find the "soft spot" in the first place.

Favoured Ones: Magic is one thing, but the term shouldn't be used to describe all kinds of benefits etc. Yes, it might be magical, but I'd also say that its magical focus was on the Undead, not the living (since it has no special rules on the living beyond what any other army gets).
It all comes down to what function the Favoured ones are to have in the list though, and what we're going to have to pay for each model in points.

Cultists: I think we have to define who these cultists are first and foremost, as well as how numerous they are and what is their standing in Nagashizzar etc; before deciding on any rules for them.
My take on it is that for the most part, there are cults spread across the world, and in these cults, those deemed worthy, or whom are believed to have a potential in the art of Necromancy, are sent in secret to Nagashizzar, to begin their true training there.
On a side note, I'd also believe that many come from eastern lands, where the populations are more numerous, and the risk of exposure would be lower.
In either case, most would have little true potential to speak of, and perhaps some limited martial training were given to them to help to teach them discipline, as well as their place.
That is my take on it from a general fluff standpoint, but others may have other and/or better ideas.

I,m not really see Cultists of Nagash should be too similar to the empire ones. They are after all disciples of a war god more often than not (Sigmar), while nagas's ones would in my opinion have much more of an inclining towards necromancy/magic. Nagash can't hope to conquer the word with fanatacis after all (he is not that popular!), so I'd imagine his cultist would have other primary uses.

On the WS 3 issue, I'm not against it, but I think we need some more fluff that really tells us what it means to actually BE a cultist of Nagash in Nagashizzar.

Are you talking about making Nagash "Chaos Warriors"? I'd have to disagree here, as I think Nagash's more elite fighting units should be undead in the first place, and secondly, worshipping Nagash is NOT the same as worshipping the Chaos Gods (not even barking up a similar three there), no matter hos Supreme a lord of the Undead he is.

I think I agree with you on the slaves though. Like the idea of Cultists "herding" them. I might have given them toughness 3, but I do see hoe one can argue for two as well. I do however think that we should keep two things in mind if we decide to include slaves:

-We should NOT make them too similar to Skaven Slaves first of all. Those units are a huge boon to the Skaven, and it would be an ever bigger bonus to us (higher LD on general an all). I think we should have Slaves in the 3-4 pts range, with more of a limited usefulness.
-I think we have to think a bit like nagash. How would he have used them most effectively? They are after all a unit which he is expecting to get a second use of as zombies (regardless of what we decide to do game-wise, this is what he'd do in the fluff), so I image he'd use them in some nasty way in the first place.

I'm certainly open for seeing what you have D.K, but I think we should hear from the others as well.

I'd like to see what you have for the Infantry Souleaters D:k, but I have a sneaking suspicion (mostly based on the name alone admittedly), that they would belong in the Special section. hehe
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#8
I think I'm "finished" with the draft for the Skeleton Warriors, or Eternal Legions as I've decided to call them here.

The idea is basically that they are the Skeletons from both Nehekhara, the surrounding lands as well as skeletons from ancient petty kingdoms from before even Nehekhara's time. They are the ones he summoned using his great Ritual, those that didn't reach Nagashizzar before Alcadizaar killed him, and those that didn't have any sworn loyalty to the Tomb Kings etc.

From a game perspective, the idea is to make them very flexible in their use, by playing on the idea that nearly every piece of undead fluff mentioning Skeleton Warriors seems to agree on; the fact that they can easily be made to work in a synchronous manner, which no mortal army can ever equal. This is not reflected in any rules, and with Nagash's greater necromancy, historical ties to legions og skeletons etc, I think it is quite doable.

This is just the first unit though, as I imagine a Javelin/Naphtha Thhrower support unit in the Core section as well, and then perhaps a medium Cavalry Unit (like Arkhan is describesd as so fond of leading in the riology) as either a Core or Special choce. They will both be a lot simpler thoug, as they are both Co-horts, i.e supporting units.

Here goes:


Legions Eternal​


When Nagash performed his great ritual, awakening al the dead of ancient Nehekhara, so powerful was the spell, that a much greater part of their life essence was brought back than what is usual when summoning the dead, resulting in Skeletons with a somewhat greater understanding of their ‘self’. So great was this change, that when Nagash was killed on his throne by Alcadizaar, those skeletons which had been in the service of the ancient Kings of Nehekahra, returned so serve their masters out of a sense of loyalty still found within their very bones. Most of the skeletons awakened in the great ritual, has never sworn loyalty to the likes of Settra and the other ancient kings, and these skeletons are those that now serve Nagash, or by extension, his Dark Lords.
Although these skeletons mostly fell when Nagash was destroyed by Alcadizaar, the cult of Nagash have over the years gone to great lengths to retrieve their bones, while the foundries of Nagashizzar have for centuries provided them with their traditional gears of war, their spears, shields and bronze armour.
While the Skeleton Legions of Nagashizzar were slowly assembled and armed over the centuries, one problem soon became apparent to the followers of Nagash, they were simply too numerous to control efficiently without the Great Necromancer revived, and at his full strength. With the Vampires gone, the task of solving this seemingly insurmountable logistics problem; fell to the best and brightest of the few necromancers, whom made the journey to Nagashizzar over the millennia. For centuries they worked on a solution, but with the secret of the Elixir of Life not to be found anywhere they dared go in Nagashizzar, they eventually perished before their research could give them an answer.
The solution was found, less than fifty years ago, and it was discovered by the infamous Arkhan the Black. He knew that for the massive and still growing Legions of Nagashizzar to be effective, without their true master controlling them, they needed to be more independent from their master, able to act more on their own former instincts, enabling the controlling Necromancer to have a greater number of undead under his control without straining himself overly much. The solution was to make create large legions of skeletal warriors, then summon the spirit of a single powerful and ancient general and bind the whole legion to his spirit, while sacrficing a whole host of lesser spirits to grant the one enough power to fuse with the whole Legion. Even though the Leginnaire are more potent warriors than the equivalents found in the armies of the Vampires and the Tomb Kings, there was also a drawback to Arkhan’s idea, since it proved itself impossible to raise new skeletons and add them to the Legion after the completed ritual, as the controlling spirit simply refused to acknowledge them, thus bigger legions cannot be formed, only new ones.
The Legion Eternal is a fearsome enemy on the field of battle, marching in perfect unison, fighting with a coordination not matched by any mortal force. Armed with spears and shields, in the manner of ancient Nehekarha, and the advanced unit tactics perfected by mortals over millennia, they form the core of the vast host of Nagashizzar. They are truly the most eternal body of warriors, and they now stand ready to be unlashed upon the world again…


Eternal Legionnaire: M 4, Ws 3, BS 3, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 2, A 1, LD 3
Eternal Champion: same stats, but +1 A


Troop Type: Infantry

Special Rules: “Legion of Nagash”

We are Legion!: As the Eternal Legion is controlled on a unit level by its ancient collective spirits, they find it very disrupting to have any outside influence in their midst, and this goes for attempting to raise new Legionnaires and adding them to the Legion as well.

Eternal Legionnaires count as skeletons for all intents and purposes, but the Legion’s size can under no circumstance become greater than its original 50 Legionnaires.

Undead characters may join this unit, but it will then be unable to benefit from the Legion Tactics special rule for as long as the character is present, as his presence is a disturbing presence for the Legion’s collective spirit.

Legion Tactics: Wars in ancient Nehekhara and the surrounding region was fought using a lot of refined unit tactics, and while some things was very hard to teach soldiers of free will, even given years of training, this is something which the undead Legionnaires can now perform perfectly with what seems like an ease that would shame the most skilled of mortal infantry.

The Legion Eternal is incredibly adept at changing its formation and purpose at an incredibly short time, acting as if they are guided by one single will. To represent this, and how the Legion uses this coordination to adapt to any situation, it has four specialist formations available to it listed below. Whenever the unit performs a successful Reform maneuver, for whatever reason, it may change its formation, as well as its facing and so on according to the normal Reform rules. Unless the owning player specifies otherwise, the Legion always deploys in the Shield-Wall formation. The number behind the formation’s name is there so that one can place a four sided dice by the Legion unit, with the number corresponding with the formation it currently uses.

The Legion Eternal does need to be within the General’s Inspiring Presence range to be able to perform a Reform maneuver.

•Shield-Wall Formation (1): Even though it is armed with Spears and Shields, the Legion makes a near impenetrable shield-wall facing their enemies.
The Unit has the “Parry Save” rule normally associated with the hand weapon and shield combination, even though they are armed with spears. They still benefit from the Extra Ranks special rule for having spears.

•Wedge Formation (2): This formation is used to break enemy formations as a shock tactic, by hitting their centre hard, and using any opening in the enemy line to disrupt the enemy formation. While effective when used by mortals, it is much more so with every attacker working together in near perfect synchrony.

When making a successful Charge move, the Legion adds an additional +1 to the Combat Result for being the one to Charge, but more importantly, should the Eternal Legion be a part of a winning combat, any enemy unit in contact with them counts as having half its number of ranks of five or more models, for the purposes of determining Steadfast (rounding up).
This formation weakens the flanks of the unit, so any enemy unit attacking the Flanks, need only be five models strong to disrupt the formation.

•Tortoise Formation (3): This formation was used for maximum protection vs. missiles, most commonly arrows. By pressing together, and keeping their shields above and facing outwards at all directions so that they nearly overlap, the unit creates a tortoise-like shell which protects it. The downside to this formation is that it leaves little room to fight, as well as slowing down all movement considerably.

The Unit has a +2 bonus to its armour save, vs. all manner of ranged attacks (i.e. a 3+ armour save), but it may not have a higher bonus than it currently has additional ranks of five or more models (so one additional rank of five models would only constitute a +1 bonus to the armour save).
The unit may not Charge an enemy while in this formation, nor may it make a March move. While in this formation, only the front rank may ever make attacks (even if armed with spears).

•Phalanx Formation (4): The unit stays close together, all spears pointing as effectively in one direction as possible, forwards.

The unit gains the Extra Ranks special rule, effectively fighting with two additional ranks if did not charge, because of the spears. The Legion gains a +1 armour save towards its Front, but any unit attacking the Flanks or Rear negates any bonuses for using a shield, and they also double any combat resolution bonuses from attacking in the Flank or Rear in the first place.
If a unit that is not Infantry, Swarm or War Beast Charges the Phalanx formation to its Front, it counts as having the Armour Piercing special rule for the following round of close combat. A Phalanx formation may only March if they are not in any kind of special Terrain (basically anything that has some special rules for it, regardless of what it is)..

Army List:

Core Option
Unit Size: 50 (Includes Champion, Standard and Musician)
Cost: 325
Weapons: Spears and Shields
Armour: Light armour
Options:
• One Legion Eternal may carry a magical Standard of up to………. 25 pts


Legion Javelin Auxiliary

Eternal Auxiliary: M4, WS 3, BS 3, S3, T 3, W 1, I 2, A 1, LD 3
Eternal Champion: M4, WS 3, BS 3, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 2, A 2, LD 3

Troop Type: Infantry

Special Rules: “Legion of Nagash”, Skirmish

We are Legion!: As the Eternal Legion’s Auxiliaries are controlled on a unit level by its ancient collective spirits, they find it very disrupting to have any outside influence in their midst, and this goes for attempting to raise new Eternal Auxiliaries and adding them to the Javelin Auxiliaries as well.

Eternal Auxiliaries count as skeletons for all intents and purposes, but the Auxiliary’s size can under no circumstance become greater than its original 10 Eternal Auxiliaries.

Undead characters may join this unit, but it will then be unable to benefit from the Legion Tactics special rule for as long as the character is present, as his presence is a disturbing presence for the Legion’s collective spirit.

Auxiliary Tactics: The Auxiliary units main purpose was to support the Legion in battle, to weaken enemies before close combat ensued, and to disrupt the enemy lines.

This is a set of special rules, which may be utilized if the Auxiliary starts the round within the general’s Inspiring Presence range, or within 8” of an Eternal Legion:

•The Javelin Auxiliary must be deployed together with an Eternal Legion and counts as one deployment choice. It must be placed within 8” of it, but this does not have to be within the army’s deployment zone.

•The Javelin Auxiliary may choose Flee as a charge reaction, and it will automatically rally at the start of the LoN player’s following turn.

•If an Eternal Legion is in close combat with an enemy, the Auxiliary may support it by throwing Javelins (or Naphtha Jars) into the rear ranks of their foes. This can only be done if the Auxiliary are in the enemy unit’s Flank or Rear arcs, and the Auxiliary is not in close combat themselves. Any casualties inflicted in this manner, will not cause a panic test, but will instead be added to the Legions next combat resolution score.

Upgrades:

Naphtha Jars (25 pts): Instead of Javelins, the unit carries jars of burning naphtha, developed in the laboratories of Nagashizzar. This weapon was first and foremost developed to take on the traitorous Kings in the Land of the Dead and their subjects, but it has proven most useful against others as well.

The Naphtha Jars have 8” range, are S4, -2 to armour save, counts as magical Flaming Attacks, Ignores Cover, and are Move or Fire.

Army List:

Core Option (you may include one Javelin auxiliary unit for each Eternal Legion in the list).
Unit Size: 10 (Includes Champion, Standard and Musician)
Cost: 75 pts
Weapons: Javelins, Hand Weapons and Shields
Armour: Light armour
Options:
One unit of Javelin Auxiliary may upgrade their Javelins for Naphtha Jars………. 25 pts

Legion Cataphract Auxiliary

Eternal Auxiliary: M4, WS 3, BS 3, S3, T 3, W 1, I 2, A 1, LD 3
Eternal Champion: M4, WS 3, BS 3, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 2, A 2, LD 3
Skeletal Steed: M 8, Ws 2, BS -, S 3, T -, W -, I 2, A 1, LD -

Troop Type: Cavalry

Special Rules: Legion of Nagash

We are Legion!: As the Eternal Legion’s Auxiliaries are controlled on a unit level by its ancient collective spirits, they find it very disrupting to have any outside influence in their midst, and this goes for attempting to raise new Eternal Auxiliaries and adding them to the Cataphract Auxiliaries as well.

Eternal Auxiliaries count as skeletons for all intents and purposes, but the Auxiliary’s size can under no circumstance become greater than its original 10 Eternal Auxiliaries.

Undead characters may join this unit, but it will then be unable to benefit from the Legion Tactics special rule for as long as the character is present, as his presence is a disturbing presence for the Legion’s collective spirit.

Auxiliary Tactics: The Auxiliary units main purpose was to support the Legion in battle, to weaken enemies before close combat ensued, and to aid the Legion when needed.

This is a set of special rules, which may be utilized if the Auxiliary starts the round within the General’s Inspiring Presence range, or within 8” of an Eternal Legion:

• The Cataphract Auxiliary must be deployed together with the Eternal Legion, and within 8” of it.
• If the Cataphract Auxiliary is fighting in the same close combat as an Eternal Legion, the combat resolution counting against the LoN player from casualties (not including any characters involved), cannot exceed the lowest number of models slain, from either the Legion or any Auxiliary unit when determining the effects of the Unstable special rule.

Army List:

Core Option
(you may include one Cataphract Auxiliary unit for each Eternal Legion in the list).
Unit Size: 10 (Includes Champion, Standard and Musician)
Cost: 150 pts
Weapons: Spears and Shields
Armour: Heavy armour
Options:

• The entire unit may be equipped with Short Bows……………………20 pts
 

The Dread King

Moderator
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True Blood
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Messages
1,897
#9
Considering that it's such a big unit, shouldn't the magic standard be up to 50pts (or one in the army can be up to 50pts)? Also, should there be a note saying that the legionnaires count as skeletons for raising purposes (i.e. legion version of master of the dead (is there a power that allows you to raise skeletons beyond starting size in legion?-I expect Nagash and Arkhan have that power if it exists))?
Apart from that, I think that the unit looks great. I am looking forward to seeing the skeleton detachments/cohorts. I think that a canny general could turn these legions into very good units on the tabletop.

Now for the Souleaters!

Souleaters-12pts per model

-----------M WS BS S T W I A Ld Troop Type
Souleater--4 3 1 3 4 1 3 1 7 Infantry
Soulflayer-4 3 1 3 4 1 3 2 7 Infantry

Equipment: hand weapons, light armour and shields.

Special rules: Undead; Souleaters.

Options: May have the entire unit take one of the following:

Spears...free
Additional hand weapons that replace their shields...1pt per model

May upgrade one Souleater to a musician...10pts
May upgrade one Souleater to a standard bearer...10pts
May upgrade one Souleater to a Soulflayer...10pts
May take a magic banner of up to...50pts

Souleaters: Souleaters and Soulflayers have +1 to wound in combat. When a unit of Souleaters causes wounds in a round of combat, it gains frenzy at the end of that round of combat. Note that if it loses its frenzy, it can regain frenzy at the end of a later round of combat but it cannot regain frenzy in the same round that it loses frenzy.

Will post the fluff later, after the maintenance shutdown ends.
Thoughts on this unit?
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#10
Dreadking:

50 Skeletons is not unusually large any more, and my guess is that this army will have quite a few magical banner options already, since it is going to be more "elite". I think 25 pts banner is more than adequate in this case.

You are indeed right that they should be defined as skeleton warriors for raising purposes, but it will NOT be possible to raise the unit to above 50 model (one of the built-in limitations), not even for Nagash (whom I'm not all that concerned with to be honest) or Arkhan.
I don't know if a "master of the dead" power will exist in the IoN project, but I wouldn't want it to work on this unit in any case if I could decide. Also, it becomes a little too much like the VC army if we copy everything we like from that list.

I think it will grant some tactical options at least. Its been a busy weekend here (warhammer rpg weekend), but I'll soon post the support units.

Souleaters:

First impression is that it looks to be a well balanced unit, perhaps a little on the expensive side point-wise for what one gets, but I really like to get more of a feel for the unit and so on after having read the fluff and having "digested" it for a while. hehe

One thing I could perhaps put a finger on was the Frenzy idea. Personally, I'm not a fan of Undead ever being frenzied (in this context, I view Vampires not as Undead btw, even though -I think Blood Knights as Frenzied are a bit stupid in any case to be honest), and with it first being "gained" in close combat etc, I think it might as well have been changed into some other special rule that fits their fluff well. Others might disagree though..

Another small thing is perhaps the 50 pts magical banner option. Magical banner option are much rarer in 8.ed, and 50 pts are even rarer still, and often only available on Special options. But, then again, it comes down to how many other banner options the list will have in toital, as well as what role you picture this unit having in hte army itself.

On a side not, for my own LoN project, I had a unit I called Soulflayers (based on a Nagash Servant I vreated for warhammer rpg 1 almost ten years ago), whom were a small elite skirmishing unit, with magical javelins that could hit characters in units etc. Nice to see similar thoughts when it comes to naming units. hehe
 

The Dread King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
1,897
#11
Yeah, Souleater rules were about the most powerful they could be when I put them on the forum. The idea is that I hope we can discuss which should be kept and which should be dropped. You're right, frenzy should be dropped and the banner limit should be 25pts. Points cost would therefore be around 9 or 10pts.
I don't have much time tonight so will probably post the fluff tomorrow.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,916
#12
Ok, some feedback:

Legions Eternal......fantastic. So different and I can imagine it in my minds eye. One of the best ideas to grace the LoN in a while, great work. The only thing I would like to see is perhaps an additional formation, or an amendment for a pike-like effect. Basically the unit plants its spears into the ground and becomes an obstacle to mounted units.

Zombies. Hmmm. I am think perhaps with the new skeleton options, maybe we could actually drop them entirely out of the list, leave them for VC. In regards to new summons, we could adjust the fluff, that the magic of the legion is more potent and literally strips the flesh from any new bodies it raises?

Favoured Ones: I am not happy to get rid of the throwing spears, as apart from personal preference there is no good reason to do so. However I do like the idea of them being resistant to magic and them being able to move faster.

Cultists. Something we have a different idea on. One thing I should mention. When I say fluff, I mean the fluff that was discussed when the unit was created. Unfortunately not all of that was brought across into an official blurb (this was a work in progress), hence a lot of the fluff I am referencing is from the fact I worked to create most of this. You can go and see some of the old threads if you like.
Basically the idea of these cultists was meant to be shocktroopers. Yes Nagash would expend human life, no argument there. However it is likely he would prefer for them to have an impact than simply be wasted. The idea behind this unit was to fanatics, born and raised to see Nagash as a good, trained from birth to fight in his stead. Not all cultists have magical ability, these are the ones who do not.

With that in mind, I would suggest the following: Cultists are kept as above but are moved to special. However with the Nagashi Captain, a unit can be chosen as core?

Slaves - I do not need any point here. If a person was such a poor fighter, I would think Nagash would find better uses for them. Cultists I can see being allowed to live and die in battle, as they do something that the normal dead do not. That hard hitting non-magical element is a different tool for Nagash to effectively use. Slaves would be worse that skeletons, so I would have thought he would either train the slaves up > they become cultists or those that can't cut the mustard die and become skeletons.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#13
The Dreadking:

Looking forwards to the fluff on them. :)

DoN:

Legions Eternal: I actually researched various formations quite a bit for this (inspired by Roman tactics mostly), and the phalanx formation was the one which had the most pike-like effect. What most people don't seem to know, is that the Phalanx formations was actually most effective when it was moving forwards, and not standing still to receive a charge. I didn't quite get this across though, as I didn't want to have two "charge" formations so to speak.
As the warriors are so ancient, and Nagash's skeletons were described as fighting in the spear and shield style that nagash knew from nehekhara, I chose to go with this, instead of having a pike upgrade. I did actually consider having a pike upgrade, but in the end I wanted all the formations to work with spears, and I also didn't want to actually have to force the LoN player to rearrange his models every time a formation change was made (even though that is still an option for the player).

Btw, I'll soon post the Javelin Cohort for the Legion, and the Cavalry cohort. Together with the "Ballista" we already discussed, we're starting to get some strong Roman Legion elements to the LoN army, with a dark twist to them so to speak.

If you want "pikes" in the army, I think this could be something for the Pinnacle guard instead (don't they already have a spear option?). I did my pinnaclke guard equivalent with an "Impalers" weapon upgrade (Extra rank and armour Piercing when charged, on top of the Extra Rank figthing whih are common for spears). Killing Blow GG pikemen, THAT's a proper Elite! :) This is something that I'm considering for my "Drakenhof guard" in the Legacies project, since it would fit well with the Vlad Tepes (Carstein) theme.. Still, the same weapon could perfectly well be used in hte Legion as well if it sounds interesting.

Zombies:

Nagash is referred to as using zombies quite a lot in the fluff, but it is the way that he uses them that is interesting to me. He doesn't typically really bring a them to the battlefield, instead he prefers to bring a strong living element, which are typically slowly pushed back as they take casualties etc, and then he springs his trap, raising the dead behind his foes etc. I personally think this could be cold if it was featured in the list, or at least tactically. It would bring forth a very fluffy cold and calculating element I think.

If he Legions Eternal do replace the "standard skellies" in the LoN project, then I think it is quite important for balance reasons that they can't be taken to above 50 models in the first place, but re-raising is still perfectly doable.
I'm sure someone like Nagash could easily pull the flesh from the bones of corpses if he wished too, but I'm not sure how well that would fit with the "lesser" necromancers of the list, or the fluff in general.

Favoured Ones:

The issue with the spears for me is first and foremost the claws (which I imagine is the reasons Crypt Ghouls have a BS of 0 in the first place), and also that hte "Yaghur" in the triology seemed too feral to really employ such a weapon.
I can however Imagine that not all Favoured ones are equally feral etc, and that a smaller number of them have retained a bit more of their humanity. I think that the Spears option is not ideal on a Core Ghoul option as such, but could perhaps fit a smaller, more elite "Ghoul" regiment of some sort. but, that is my opinion, and while I might argue my view here, I understand if people decide otherwise.

Cultists:

I obviously didn't know that there was more fluff DoN, as I assumed that this had been copied along with the rest before the updates started.
I'm aboard with the basic fanatics idea DoN, and I think an expendable, hard hitting, and fragile (we almost have to to keep the cost down and keep them a Core option). Born and bred fanatics are always a lot of fun, and I did like the Morning Star option (even though Flail are more ideal from a maximum gain perspective for them, I think the Morning Star is a keeper). As I said previously though, I can't imagine Nagash equipping them with heavy armour if their purpose is to die and take as many with them as possible. I have some potential suggestions for some small changes, which allows us to keep the fluff as you envisioned them I imagine, and still make them get their more defined tactical role in the army, as well as keeping them a Core Option:

-We could let them have Morning Stars OR Two Weapons, Hatred OR a special Suicidal Charge special rule, and keep their cost down so that Steadfast could benefit us well.
-I think the Core option should not have anything to do with magic either, but that could be left to a Special Choice "Elite" Cultist option. SOME of the cultists at Nagashizzar would most likely have some magical potential, but still not be fully fledged necromancers so to speak. This would also help with a more strong living element, as well as provide a bit of a new tactical option.

Personally, I'd like to see two separate cultist options, as this helps bring forht the mortal aspect of he list, but maybe we could twist it so that the Nagashi Captain in this case allowed one of the Special Unit Cultists to become Core instead? But, I really think we have to agree on how the whole Cultist theme is to be handled before deciding this poart.

I do like the slaves idea, but realistically, if we do go for a host of cheap sacrificial cultists, then I think the slaves become somewhat redundant, as the cultist may in fact perform pretty much the same tactical function. Zombies could potentially be raised from their corpses instead.. Even though I first suggested the slaves Idea myself, I don't think it goes all that well together with the cultist idea as they are a bit too similar from a tactical standpoint..

Just a suggestion, could the Nagashi Captain, be turned into a Hero Level Cultist Preacher-type instead? I don't see that many "regular" human troops in the list (and I can't really imagine there being that many). I think we should have a human hero lvl character, but I'm not sure a military style captain is the way to go. He could ride with the Dark Riders I suppose, but not that many prefer to use Heroes with Fast cav in any case.. Just a thought (its validity depending on how the overall list turns out)..
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#14
Did some small changes to the Legion, mostly touched it up a bit, but also added a small bonus to the Phalanx formation as you suggested DoN.

Added the Legion Javelin Auxiliary unit to the same post as the Eternal Legion.
 

The Dread King

Moderator
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True Blood
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Messages
1,897
#15
Nagashi captain could turn into evil warrior priest (he'd keep the captain name, but he'd have warrior priest type skills except they're all about death instead of life and Nagash instead of Sigmar).

I think that the legion eternal is great, but should zombies really be lost? I think you should be able to have armies without them, but if the zombies are gone for good, who's gonna eat all the brains? Who's gonna be in the old Nagash model's clown parade?

I think that there should be a sort of "state troops" cultist option for core, and then the initiated cultists (the ones who are mad) as a special option. I have profiles for the initiated cultists, but I'll bring them up when special are discussed.

And at last, onto the Soulflayers:
There was once a tribe that lived in the area that is now Nagashizzar. Its name has been long forgotten, but the things that came from it are feared throughout the reaches of the world: they are soulflayers. Even back then, the land was a barren place, and there was only one river and a dark, twisted wood. The tribe shamans made sacrifices to their gods every week-human sacrifices. There were particularly bloody rituals, and eventually, the bloodshed proved to be the tribe's downfall. A great chunk of warpstone started to be pulled towards the tribe's vast realm; the evil drawing it ever and ever closer. A final, frenzied slaughter of hundreds saw the meteorite smash the tribe's realm apart, killing all life in the area to become Nagashizzar immediately...
But that was not the end for the tribe. No, it would return, a sick parody of itself, its members more twisted than ever. For the day after the warpstone hit, Nagash arrived at Cripple Peak. His aura alone was enough to wake the unlife that was lurking in the warped bodies of the tribe. Slowly, with a terrible hunger, the horrible creatures that were once humans crawled towards their new master. He smiled at them wickedly, and he soon had his pets building his fortress. Yet they had a better use, for they were ferocious beasts that despised the living and could tear out a man's throat.
After a careful study of a soulflayer, Nagash realised what he could do with his prisoners of war. Through repeatedly damaging them with vast amounts of warpstone, he could create his own soulflayers out of helpless humans. For the warpstone eats away at the prisoner's soul; even as they cry out they are devoured by the magical rock. Eventually there is nothing left but a solid heart of warpstone in them, and with the ruining of the souls comes the ruining of the bodies. They emerge as mindless soulflayers that serve Nagash. The soulflayers helped Nagash on many occasions, and their visage can still send grown men mad with fear, as they know that the last thing they might see is the thing that they might become. Sometimes, a soulflayer's arcane howl can be heard over the winds; it is a howl of rage, an angry wail made because they have been cheated of their humanity and who they are.
In dark taverns, tales of evil liches and twisted necrarchs conducting experiments on the poor souls that dare to defy them are whispered over tables. A rumour is going around that Nagash and his servants have discovered new ways to torture those who oppose them and to create more horrifying monstrosities than before. And in the dark caverns around cripple peak, an army of soulflayers is slowly amassing; it will be ready to strike at the world soon. And when it does, no one will be safe.


Soulflayers - 10pts per model

Soulflayer... M 4 / WS 4 / BS 1 / S 3 / T 4 / W 1 / I 3 / A 1 / Ld 6
Souleater.... M 4 / WS 4 / BS 1 / S 3 / T 4 / W 1 / I 3 / A 2 / Ld 6

Unit Size: 10+

Equipment: hand weapons, light armour and shields.

Options:
-The entire unit may take one of the following:
Spears...free
Additional hand weapons that replace their shields...1pt per model
-Any unit may upgrade one Soulflayer to a musician for +10pts
-Any unit may upgrade one Soulflayer to a standard bearer for +10pts
-Any unit may upgrade one Soulflayer to a Souleater for +10pts
-Any unit may carry a magic standard of up to 25pts

Special Rules
Nagashi Undead

Hungry for Souls
:
With souls replaced by warpstone, the Soulflayers hunger for that which they cannot obtain; that which is lost from them forever. They can almost smell the souls of their enemies and so strike where the souls are- this means that they are extremely deadly because they can hit where their enemies are most vulnerable.
Any model with this rule gets +1 to wound in combat (this could be an army wide rule if more of the Soulflayers concept was introduced).
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#16
Legions Eternal: I have posted in the other thread about making "We are Legion!" an army wide rule. If so the wording would need changing slightly but it all still works.

However what does bother me is the Leadership. A character can't really join as it will stop the options, and if the general is not nearby suddenly a really cool unit looses a lot of reliability. Being able to change those fancy formations on Leadership 3 is really not going to work. I would suggest a higher base Leadership, plus an +1 Ld for the champ, if he is killed then the unit looses that.

Javelin: The flee option whilst great gameplay wise, sounds really bad fluff wise. I would suggest rewording plus an additional extra such as:

Tactical Redeployment
Designed to harry and draw the enemy onwards into a trap, the Javelin Auxiliary are masters at swift redeployments
As a charge reaction the unit may choose to stand and fire with their Javelins. Once resolved move the unit directly backwards 2D6 inches, still pointing in the same direction. The enemy must then resolve their charge as if their enemy had fled.

Pikes: Yes I think with some of the new ideas we can look at the Pinnacle Guard and add some more options to them.

Favoured Ones: I still stick by the original concept for these. Apart from the possible option of the magic resistance, I see no need to change them.

Cultists: I think we go with two options. A lighter more suicidal core option, and then a heavier hitting special option (In regards to your comments about potential magic users, have you not seen the Necrophyte special option, this is basically this?).

Core option
Nagashi Cultists - 7 pts./model - Updated to 8th Edition
Though ranked low in the plans of Nagash, these mortals follow him without question. The belief they have in their Dark Lord lends them a fanatical fury which they vent on those who would defy their god and master.

Cultist..... M 4 / WS 3 / BS 2 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 3 / A 1 / Ld 6
Champion: M 4 / WS 3 / BS 0 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 3 / A 2 / Ld 6

Unit Strength: 10-25

Equipment
Morning Star

May choose the following equipment upgrades (costs are per model):
Flails +1pts

Options:
-Any unit may upgrade one Cultist to a Champion for +10 pts.
-Any unit may upgrade one Cultist to a Standard Bearer for +10 pts.

Special Rules
Nagashi

Suicidal Charge
The cultists know that their lives are worth less than nothing the to the Great Necromancer. Their only hope is that their death will have enough value to summoned back to fight once more.
Nagashi Cultists are Unbreakable. However they must always march move (or is possible, charge) the nearest visible enemy unit.


Zombies.....I am really not sure, need to give more thought on this.

Soulflayers. Interesting fluff, so kind of like warped undead Ghouls? It doesn't really fit their ruleset their. They sound to me to be twisted undead monsters, laced with warpstone.

My question is what is the reason to include them. The new skeleton legions I can understand as the skeletons are an exact duplicate and as such the core was lacking. However with the new units, plus Cultists, Favoured Ones and Black Riders we have 5 core options at least.

I can't really see a reason to include Soulflayers?
 

Uziel

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Messages
689
#17
DoN:

-Legions Eternal: Check. Suggest we wait and see how things go. It is easy to move this rule later if we see that it is a good thing to do. As the army looks now, I don't see the need to, but this may change.

-I did create the Legion as a main battle line unit, which was designed to have the General withing his Inspiring Presence range for maximum effect. Changing Ld of the champion just undermines their fluff (and would only very rarely have an effect in any case). They are designed this way quite on purpose, one of their drawbacks keeping their cost down. It also ties "the backbone" of the army itself more to the general.

-Javelins and Fleeing: It is not a matter of them panicking in any way or form, but rather that the general uses them wisely (and in the manner javelin throwers were indeed used historically). Note that if they're not within the General's Presence, they can only Hold when an enemy declares a charge etc since the general can't "order" them to withdraw in time. I imagine you thought them panicking when you referred to the "un-fluffy" part, but I imagine this being a very controlled affair.

The stand and Shoot then Flee and get an automatic reform is too good in my view, as that makes them into something we've not encountered before, and it also doesn't fit all that well with the Naphtha Jars upgrade (needing time to light them and so on)..

-Pikes and Pinnacle Guard: Agreed. A future issue.

-Favoured Ones: what can I say, you're the boss here and it's your creation. :)

-Cultists: I think we agree here. I have looked at the Necrophytes, but it's been a while so their particulars are somewhat hazy at the moment to be honest. The fluff wasn't in the 8.ed upgrade post, so I didn't get that much of a feel for them I guess. I'll take second look at them (and find their fluff in the older posts) soon DoN.

As to the cultists themselves, I think they're looking far better, but I see some small issues:

-BS 2 (Champion 0?) seems a bit redundant. either they have some combat training (WS/BS 3), or they don't (WS/BS 2). Not that they use their BS in any case, but often you see people reducing BS to get a point cost justification, even if this stat would/could be used. It is not important in itself, but just to have people avoiding jumping to this conclusion, I think both should be the same.
-Unit strength should be unit "size", and I think it should either be 10+ Or 10-30 (depending on any stubborn/unbreakable synergy effects)
-LD could be higher, maybe 8? This could make Steadfast a better thing with them.
-Suicidal Charge might be fluffy, but Unbreakable on a 7 pts/model unit that is Core? It sort of also overrides the general's Immune to Psychology effect, which was incredible when it was Stubborn, but Unbreakable is a whole other deal.. We could conceivable have an Unbreakable (non-unstable) army with this. I think Unbreakable should be near Unique in this list amongst the mortal elements, as the Undead part already has this. We can't have an essentyally Unbreakable army after all. I think we need something else here DoN.

-Zombies: If we leave it as a summon only unit, there is no need to rush it i any case.

-Soulflayers: With the VC army having 9 Special options, maybe they can be adjusted to fit in the special section of the list though. They almost have too fancy a name for a Core unit as well. hehe
The most important thing is that they fit both fluff-wise as well as tactically in my opinion.
 

Uziel

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Messages
689
#19
Added the Legion Cataphract Auxiliary to the Legion post above.

Basically, this is a medium cavalry unit (would have been considered a heavy cav in ancient times), made to support the Legion on the battlefield together with the Javelin Auxiliary. The strategic idea is that you use these 3 units together to actually make skeletons dangerous (or at least somewhat dangerous). If you can manage to get both types of auxiliary to help out a Legion at the same time, you should do quite well. although this will most likely not be as easy as it sounds, at least once an opponent gains some experience fighting the LoN list, and sees what needs to be done to counter the synergy effects.

This was the Last "Eternal Legion" entry btw. We could go for archers, or "barbarian" type skaletons as well, but I'm not inspired to make it too much like the TK list. I think these 3 skeleton units, with the Bolt Trower as a Rare option, is just enough to make it work and feel as a Legion as far as skeletons are concerned.

On a side not for the whole Legion, models should be very easy to find, and only the slightest of conversions needs to be made. For skeletons, I imagine the old plastic skeletons would fit perfectly, the old non-barding black knights would fit the Catapjract (short bows added on their backs if needed) and for the Javelin Auxiliary, just change spears with javelins. My guess is that most VC players will already have a lot of these models available already, and it's nice to not have to just throw them away on account of the VC army now having gotten new ones.
 

The Dread King

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#20
Wow. I'm really liking the look of the Legions Eternal. The models access is especially good and convinient.

And yeah, I guess I should drop the soulflayers/eaters, at least until we reach special units. Then they can be more monstrous and less ghouly.

Unbreakable cultists? I think we're seeing arguments between whether the cultists should be epic or not. I think that we should create a normal, weak unit of cultists for core, and then this awesome, unbreakable unit of suicidals for special. I actually had this in my own LoN campaign.

If the javelin guys, flee, then doesn't that mean they can be routed. I can't see skeletons from the eternal legions being routed- in the words of a panicked human general, "They're too organised!"

Well, I'm fine on everything else, except I still think you shouldn't leave out the zombies...

After all, what's the point of sacrificing a cultist to get a massively inferior zombie? LoN casters will be wasting all their power dice summoning up zombies and only the bony ladz will be able to help them. Maybe the Legion magic should be more into raising zombies, but I think that Nagash would still have access to them otherwise (after all, what's he going to do with the zombies he's raised after his last battle? Drop them and leave them alone? Waste his magic on making them into skeletons? If eternal legions replace the skeletons, probably only the zombies will be able to be raised beyond their starting size, and if they can't be raised beyond their starting size, then nothing can! Undead that can't increase in numbers? Are you sure that will work?).

Just my opinion, I don't want to make the old Nagash model upset by forcing him to raise his own friends every battle!
 

Uziel

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#21
Nice to har that you like it D.K.

A thought just struck me as far as the souleaters/flayers go. If more Epic is your thing, how about doing some re-writing and perhaps making them montrous infantry? That wouldn't make them too similar to anything else in the list presently, it would fit better as a special option, we could use the Crypt Horror models for them etc.. something to consider at least...

As far as the while cultist aspect of the list goes, I think we have to be a bit reasonable as far as their power level goes as far as where they fit in the list, and how they work with the rest of the army. I don't actually think cultist HAVE to be unbreakable in this list at all too be honest. I think there are some fundamental differences betjene Cultists worshipping Nagash, and that of Empire Flagellants worshipping Sigmar, as well as Chaos cultist (why lave them out aften all), and it also becomes a bit unimaginative just "copying" the flagellant template so to speak.
Personally I'd like to the Core Cultists as the expendable type that you can use to so some damage, while in return perishing quickly themselves. Suicide bomber priciple if you will (the general's immune to psychology should be enough to Get them where they need to go).
I suggest we Get some more cultist optional on the table so to speak, too se what people come up with.

NO. Just because the skeleton javelin unit can elect to "flee" as a charge response, does not mean that they can be routed. The charge response is not called tactical withrawal after all, so I just worked with how the rules work. They are still unbreakable/unstable as normal. It is an issue of the general making them fall back to regroup, which is why he has to have them within his IP range..

I agree. I personnally think we should find a place for the Zombies as well. Maybe we could fall them Revenants (as in the nagash triology) to distinguish them from normal zombies from the VC list.
The reising of zombies from slain cultists etc will seperatethe LoN list from both the VC and TK lists. We could perhaps design a summoning spell such that ALL the zombies were reiser as one unit as once, so that the more cultist slain and the longer you manager to hold off summoning, the more you could potentially benefit from it. Just to be clear here, I'm not talking about zombies identical too the VC ones.
 

The Dread King

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#22
Yeah, mebbe monstrous infantry or beasts would be better for the soulflayers/eaters.

If it's easier (or you can raise more zombies) to raise zombies than VC, I'm OK with them not being an option. But that leaves the LoN player in a terrible state-he can't put his undead characters that wish to go in bunkers) into his cultist unit (currently), he can't put them into his legions eternal unit and he can't put them into his yaghur unit (am I mistaken or is true that characters can't join the favoured ones?). This then forces them to take pinnacle guard as bunkers, which is a shame, as I don't think that anyone should be pretty much forced to take a special unit just so they can bunker their wizard.

Uziel-thanks 4 the rules clarification on the javelin guys.

I think that there isn't too much difference between liking chaos and liking Nagash-both want to kill people and both want world domination. I still hold the opinion that core cultists shouldn't be so strong but that special cultists should be the ones Nagash uses to "suicide bomb" his enemies.
 

Uziel

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#23
The Dread King

We'll see what DoN says when he has the time. It is always good to have the opinions of more than two people, and for a project like this, I personally think it will never get finished if it is a democratic process, as people tend to take an interests sporadically. I'f all changes have to wait for a majority vote, we're easily talking about 4 more years here. As this is DoN's pet project so to speak, I think it is best if he makes the final decisions. Having X number of different views of what it is supposed to look like in the end is quite impossible to balance, especially as people are wishing for different strengths/weaknesses in the list and so on.

I agree that it looks like we might have a small problem as far as bunkering goes, but it is not a huge issue, as there are always ways to fix this. If the fighter type characters are not too powerful, then we might open up for them joining the legion without unbalancing them. I think I've "erred" on the side of caution as far as they go point-wise etc.. I guess there will be more special choices as well ,but it is not easy to say how many will be infantry though..

On a side note, I "Finished" my suggestion for the Immortals today, and I'm ready to post this when the character post opens. I'm also soon done with a suggestion for the core option cultists.
 

The Dread King

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#24
I agree with the above, Uziel. My post about the zombies is only an opinion, after all.

I have a suggestion for "core" cultists

Cultists of Nagash - 6pts per mode

Cultist...M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 3 / I 3 / A 1 / Ld 7 / Troop Type:Infantry
Zealot....M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 3 / I 3 / A 2 / Ld 7 / Troop Type:Infantry

Equipment: hand weapons, light armour and shields.

Options:
-The entire unit may take one of the following:

Bows that replace their shields...1pt per model
Additional hand weapons that replace their shields...1pt per model
Spears...free

-Any unit may upgrade one Cultist to a musician for +10pts
-Any unit may upgrade one Cultist to a standard bearer for +10pts
-Any unit may upgrade one Cultist to a Zealot for +10pts
-Any unit may carry a magic standard of up to 25pts

Special Rules
Nagashi

My core chioce cultists are rather weak because I have quite strong special choice cultists.
 

Uziel

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#25
Just had a thought on the Zombie issue here. We could perhaps start with smaller units of more "elite" zombies/revenants (lets say starting Unit size 10-20), thus allowing for a place to bunker the necromancers etc. We could still keep the idea way that I suggested the summoning works (the idea that you have to do some dying before there is anyone to raise). Just a thought..

The Dread King:

The Cultists looks like a decent proposal. Not really sure about the light armour and shields though, as that is in my personal opinion a big step towards making them a standing professional army. Also a bit unsure about the magical banner, but that is just from a broader perspective as to how many magical banner options should be in the list in total. Look at the empire army, their state troops can't carry a magical banner unless the general is a "General of the Empire" etc.

Still, it is something that is easy to work with.

I'll try to finish my cultist proposal tonight (I'm almost finished), which sort of goes another way tactically. I'm sort of going the more "suicidal" route for them, which I've also got a good/cool synergy effect in mind for with any kind of a Cult Leader/Priest type character.
Have you played Total War -Rome D.K?
 
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