Legion of Nagash LoN: Update to 8th Edition (VC Book): Core

[The Dread King]

In response to the bottom question: nope. But it sounds good.

Cultists of Nagash - 5pts per mode

Cultist...M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 3 / I 3 / A 1 / Ld 7 / Troop Type:Infantry
Zealot....M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T 3 / I 3 / A 2 / Ld 7 / Troop Type:Infantry

Equipment: hand weapons and light armour.

Options:
-The entire unit may take shields...1pt per model
-The entire unit may take one of the following:

Bows...2pts per model
Additional hand weapons...1pt per model
Spears...1pt per model

-Any unit may upgrade one Cultist to a musician for +10pts
-Any unit may upgrade one Cultist to a standard bearer for +10pts
-Any unit may upgrade one Cultist to a Zealot for +10pts
-Any unit may carry a magic standard of up to 25pts

Special Rules
Nagashi

This modification makes them rather similar to state troops, unfortuneately. I still think that they should be able to carry magic banners- if VC skeletons can, then why can't those who worship Nagash? I thought that Nagashizzar was a rather magical place (though not a pleasant one!) and so, if anything, it's more justified that they have magical banners than it is justified that VC skeletons get magical banners (that's just my opinion).

 

[Uziel]

The Dread King:

The reason I asked was that there is a unit in that game that could be very appropriate for a Special Option Cultist type unit. I think perhaps Gutter Runners would be the most appropriate unit to compare it with in in warhammer game terms. This is sort of what I'm thinking for the special option cultist, but admittedly this takes the concept of the cultist themselves in the army more towards the kind of death cults that one finds in 40k. Still, I think it is quite appropriate as far as Cultists of Nagash goes in some aspects, especially for the more devoted ones.

If the "State Troops" angle is your preferred take on the cultists, I think your proposal looks fine D.K. :) I'd perhaps be wary of including bows (just for the sake of not becoming to similar to the TK list tactically), and the already mentioned banner because I expect the list will feature more than an average number of magical banner options once we're done with it. If you have a more powerful special option cultists idea, then I'd personally reserve the banner option for them.

 

[Uziel]

Here is my more suicidal "Death Cultist" version, which admittedly takes them a bit in another direction tactically.
One of the things I am planning, is for the Hero Level "disciple of Nagash" (if he becomes a priest) to have a good synergy with the unit. A re-roll on the Channeling Test for the unit is one thing I'm considering. anyway, here it is (just finished):

Nagashi Acolytes​

The Cult of Nagash has existed for millennia, but over the last centuries it has really started to grow in size. The main reason for this, is that the Dark Lords of Nagash has sent out emissaries from Nagashizzar, disciples of Nagash which have roamed far and wide across the Old World, seeking those vulnerable to their particular rhetoric, and particularly after the latest Chaos incursion in the north, things have been easier for them, as humans view a stable future as increasingly unlikely. These poor fools typically gather around one of these priests, preparing for their ultimate master’s return, and there is no safer place for them than Nagashizzar itself, so over the years Nagashizzar have slowly become home to one of the largest death cults of the Old World.
Why someone would willingly serve the Great Necromancer is perhaps a mystery to most sane people, but the truth is that the reasons are many and quite varied. The majority is people who have a hard time facing their own mortality, and these are easy targets for the wandering disciples of Nagash to appeal to, promising the hope of eternal life, albeit in the service of the Great Necromancer, the only mortal whom has truly conquered Death.
Others are people whom great power is very appealing too, and considering the everyday existence of most people of the Old World, this at least offers a potential way to become someone with real power, even though this is far from realistic for the vast majority.
Some which the disciples of Nagash encounter, and often actively seek out, are those which already dabble with unsanctioned forms of magic, typically hedge-wizards and the like. These people are perhaps desired by the Cult of Nagash more than anyone else, and are the only ones with any real likelihood of ever being selected to properly join the ranks of the immortals, but only if their potential is truly to be found. Those with only minimal abilities are destined to work as willing slaves with the rest of the cultists...
The Nagashi Acolytes whom does make it to Nagashizzar live in scattered communities in the vast fortress, protected by the slowly growing Legions of Undead that protect them from any harm. Their lives typically consist of working as semi-skilled laborers in the forges, making new weapons and armour for the host of undead, but a few also work in the laboratories and in other areas. Over the years, their population has been increased due to slaves being brought in to swell their ranks as well.
While they are far from skilled warriors, the Acolytes have proved that they have some uses on the battlefield still, one being as suicidal troops which can be raised and used again when they die, and the other is to help draw the winds of dhar to the battlefield, thereby greatly increasing the potency of the army’s necromancers.


Acolyte: M 4, WS 2, BS 2, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 3, A 1, LD 7
Neophyte: M 4, WS 2, BS 2, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 3, A 2, LD 7


Troop Type: Infantry
Special Rules: Nagashi

For Nagash!: The Acolytes have been told since coming to Nagashizzar that joining their masters eternal kingdom is the highest of honors that can be bestowed upon them. Although the level of true faith may vary somewhat, as some are equally affected by fear and doubt, when released upon the battlefield the majority is willing to sacrifice themselves for their master, and they will gladly take the rest with them to the grave. Their fanaticism is truly frightening, as they willingly sacrifice themselves by throwing themselves at their enemies with little or no regard for their own lives.

When the Nagashi Acolytes successfully charges an enemy unit, they may re-roll all unsuccessful To-Wound roll, and they may continue to do so for as long as they are part of a winning combat (enemy lost last close combat phase due to combat resolution, but did not break). The downside to this is that every model that they end up in base contact with will automatically hit them once as they throw themselves at their enemies when they first charge, in addition to their normal attacks. These additional hits count as Impact Hit for all intents and purposes and they are distributed as hits from shooting.

Aspiring Necromancers: Amongst the acolytes that flock to Nagashizzar, there are a comparatively large number of petty hedge-wizards and the like, people with some rudimentary skills with magic. As part of their prayers and incantations they are taught at Nagashizzar, are certain incantations designed to attract the magic of Dhar to an area.

The unit may Channel just like a Wizard, even though they can’t cast spells and don’t count as Wizards in any other capacity. They get a +1 on the Channel roll if they are twenty models or more.

Upgrades:

Eastern Explosives: Many of the new followers of Nagash that have come to Nagashizzar over the last centuries have come from the far-east. Some of them have the knowledge of creating black powder and they hope to use this to gain themselves a higher place in their masters new kingdom, by taking as many enemies with them as possible when they die.

At the end of the LoN movement phase, you may place the Large Template over one of the Acolytes, to represent the center of the explosion, before rolling the Artillery Dice. The result determines the Strength of the hits, which also have the Flaming Attacks special rule, and rolls D3 for Damage. If a Misfire is rolled, your enemy gets to place the Large Template instead, following the same rules, re-rolling the artillery dice to get the strength of the attack (keep re-rolling until you roll anything but a new Misfire). Both friendly troops and enemies may be hit. You don’t have to tell your opponent that the unit has this upgrade before it is being used. One use only.

Army List:​

Cost: 5 pts/model
Unit Size: 20+
Weapons: Hand Weapons.
Armour: None.
Options:
• May upgrade one Acolyte to a Nephyte………………………………………..10 pts
• May upgrade one Acolyte to a Standard Bearer…………………….10 pts
• May upgrade one Acolyte to a Musician……………………………………….10 pts
• The entire unit may be equipped with one of the following:
-Additional Hand Weaons………………………………………….......….1 points per model
-Morning Stars……………………………………………………….............1 points per model
• The Unit may be equipped with Eastern Explosives……………30 pts

 

[Bishop]

I've been crazy busy lately.

@DoN - before any of these are 'final', can you shoot me a PM?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Some interesting stuff. Just done army wide rules, so will have a look at this tomorrow :thumbsup:

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Right then.

Skeletons - I agree with the skeleton baser units we may as well drop these. The new units are much more unique and interesting than carbon copying from VC / TK

Legions Eternal - Fine with the unit. The only thing I am sticking on is the We are Legion! becoming an army wide rule. Not only does it apply to 3 core units, I have some ideas to apply it possibly to other units. So with than in mind I think we need to tweak and amend it so it is not so unit specific.

Legion Javelin Auxiliary - I am currently not happy with the option for the unit to flee. It just doesn't sound right for an undead skeleton unit to be running away so swiftly like Wood Elves or similar do. If it was reworded perhaps to show it is a tactical withdrawal or something similar, but at the moment I don't like this. It would be more interesting to see these interact more with the Legions Eternal unit, example:

Tactical Withdrawal

The unit must be deployed no more than 2" inches in front of the a Legion Eternal unit to use this tactic. If an enemy declares a charge the Javelin Auxiliary unit may stand and shoot as normal. Once resolved take a leadership test. If passed the Javelin Auxiliary makes a tactical withdrawal through the Legion Eternal unit, place the unit 1" behind the Legion Eternal unit, facing any direction. The unit may then continue as normal.
The charging enemy unit must then charge the revealed Legion Eternal unit if it is within range. If it is not within range it counts as a failed charge.

Naptha Jars - How big are these jars meant to be? I am presuming as they can be used more than once, they are quite small? Just trying to visualise it, are they in effect like grenades?

Legion Cataphract Auxiliary - This unit is the one I am most dubious about. It is a cav unit that is very limited to sticking next to an infantry unit, and even then its tactical benefits are a bit "meh". The Legion Eternal unit is really good, and with some tweaks I can see the Javelin Auxiliary being good. I just don't see this one. To be honest I am not sure if I can think of a decent alternative either....o_o

Cultists:

Sorry Dread King, but I don't like your version. They strike me as just too normal. The main idea behind the cultists was fanatical brainwashed humans, and I don't get that impression with your rules. Sorry!

Uziel: I do like your version more, however I don't like the magical angle. Magical ability is not present within every human, and the odd few that would show such aptitude in the LoN would most likely not be used for cannon fodder but trained up. In addition we already have a human unit that acts as a magical boost for the army - Necrophytes (special choice).

With that in mind, I like the idea of a suicidal unit, but stripped of the magical element. So:

For Nagash! - The description here is a tad confusing. I would prefer:
The unit suffers from Frenzy, however it cannot test to stop themselves from charging. During combat, all models in BtB contact with the enemy make cause an impact hit at their base strength to represent throwing themselves at the enemy. In addition all attacks (both impact hits and normal attacks) may re-roll all failed to-wound rolls.
However all all attacks directed against the unit automatically hit.
Finally whilst the general is alive the unit is unbreakable, however should the general die not only does the unit have to take a panic check as per the Nagashi rule, they may also not benefit from For Nagash! rule for the rest of the game.

I removed the part about winning combat. If we are going for true fanatics they won't care if they are winning, all they want to do is kill and die in the service of their Lord, same for the unbreakable point. However to balance it I put the part about loosing the rule if the general is killed, to reflect that their faith is shaken by seeing one of their powerful undead masters destroyed.

Aspiring Necromancers - I would drop this entirely as previously mentioned.

Eastern Explosives: Love the idea. It will probably kill most of the cultists, but hopefully take a large chunk of the enemy with them!

Standard Bearer / Musician - I think these options should be dropped, I can't imagine them orderly carrying such things, but instead wanting to get to grips with the enemy.

Units we are keeping:

Favoured Ones
Dark Riders


Anymore thoughts on Zombies yet?

 

[Uziel]

Right then.

Skeletons - I agree with the skeleton baser units we may as well drop these. The new units are much more unique and interesting than carbon copying from VC / TK

Legions Eternal - Fine with the unit. The only thing I am sticking on is the We are Legion! becoming an army wide rule. Not only does it apply to 3 core units, I have some ideas to apply it possibly to other units. So with than in mind I think we need to tweak and amend it so it is not so unit specific.

Ok. Keep in mind that this will have a pretty big impact on how the spells will work, especially the summoning spells of the army. It can also greatly effect where we can bunker our undead characters. Still, a workable idea I guess (a bit early to say yet).

Legion Javelin Auxiliary - I am currently not happy with the option for the unit to flee. It just doesn't sound right for an undead skeleton unit to be running away so swiftly like Wood Elves or similar do. If it was reworded perhaps to show it is a tactical withdrawal or something similar, but at the moment I don't like this. It would be more interesting to see these interact more with the Legions Eternal unit, example:

Tactical Withdrawal

The unit must be deployed no more than 2" inches in front of the a Legion Eternal unit to use this tactic. If an enemy declares a charge the Javelin Auxiliary unit may stand and shoot as normal. Once resolved take a leadership test. If passed the Javelin Auxiliary makes a tactical withdrawal through the Legion Eternal unit, place the unit 1" behind the Legion Eternal unit, facing any direction. The unit may then continue as normal.
The charging enemy unit must then charge the revealed Legion Eternal unit if it is within range. If it is not within range it counts as a failed charge.

Naptha Jars - How big are these jars meant to be? I am presuming as they can be used more than once, they are quite small? Just trying to visualise it, are they in effect like grenades?

-It is a tactical withdrawal (hence the automatic rally), but in game terms the charge response will still be flee. I don't see the need to write a whole "tactical withdrawal" special rule just for this. Wood Elves are far from the only army that can benefit from a tactical retreat as well..

-From what we know of ancient warfare, troops with javelins were used to run towards enemy lines to harass and bait enemy units, and your suggestion takes them in another direction tactically. Not really sure they have much of a tactical use with your suggestion, the points can probably be better spent on just reinforcing the battle line instead. I also don't like how bungled up they would become with such a close proximity to the legion. Also, having them in front of the legion would really impact which tactics could be effectively employed by the legion itself. So on this I disagree. I like the tactical options my version gives the army much better, as it gives both them and the army much more tactical flexibility.

-The Jars are pretty much like hand grenades, or just a little bigger. I guess you've seen 300. The ones that the Persians have there is sort of my inspiration here.

Legion Cataphract Auxiliary - This unit is the one I am most dubious about. It is a cav unit that is very limited to sticking next to an infantry unit, and even then its tactical benefits are a bit "meh". The Legion Eternal unit is really good, and with some tweaks I can see the Javelin Auxiliary being good. I just don't see this one. To be honest I am not sure if I can think of a decent alternative either....o_o

The unit is not designed to be a heavy hitter, and with the "hit" cavalry has taken in the game in 8.ed it is really hard to find a decent "use" for medium cavalry. There are almost no 3+/4+ armour save cav units in the game, which I find a bit odd to be honest.
The unit is mainly designed to help out the eternal legion, and to help pursue fleeing fores.
It is not a very "good" or elite unit, but then again all units cant't be this by definition.

Cultists:

Uziel: I do like your version more, however I don't like the magical angle. Magical ability is not present within every human, and the odd few that would show such aptitude in the LoN would most likely not be used for cannon fodder but trained up. In addition we already have a human unit that acts as a magical boost for the army - Necrophytes (special choice).

With that in mind, I like the idea of a suicidal unit, but stripped of the magical element. So:

For Nagash! - The description here is a tad confusing. I would prefer:
The unit suffers from Frenzy, however it cannot test to stop themselves from charging. During combat, all models in BtB contact with the enemy make cause an impact hit at their base strength to represent throwing themselves at the enemy. In addition all attacks (both impact hits and normal attacks) may re-roll all failed to-wound rolls.
However all all attacks directed against the unit automatically hit.
Finally whilst the general is alive the unit is unbreakable, however should the general die not only does the unit have to take a panic check as per the Nagashi rule, they may also not benefit from For Nagash! rule for the rest of the game.

I removed the part about winning combat. If we are going for true fanatics they won't care if they are winning, all they want to do is kill and die in the service of their Lord, same for the unbreakable point. However to balance it I put the part about loosing the rule if the general is killed, to reflect that their faith is shaken by seeing one of their powerful undead masters destroyed.

Aspiring Necromancers - I would drop this entirely as previously mentioned.

Eastern Explosives: Love the idea. It will probably kill most of the cultists, but hopefully take a large chunk of the enemy with them!

Standard Bearer / Musician - I think these options should be dropped, I can't imagine them orderly carrying such things, but instead wanting to get to grips with the enemy.

I must say that I find it a bit odd that you don't agree that there could be some "hedge-wizards/necromacer type acolytes mixed in among the hordes of cultists (enough to let them Channel at least), and at the same time you're arguing for the rituals on non-wizard characters, on the basis that it is not magic. If it is not magic, then it should be really easy to train thousands of cultists to do the same, and the army would be invincible... Any kind of "magical" effect, needs to be based on the winds of magic, hence it IS magic...

I know it is a bit early to bring it up, but I think I should mention that I don't really like the synergy effect of the current necrophytes, as they are basically just another way to remove the army's marching weakness, with some protection vs ranged attacks, and little else to them. with the ease of the rituals being cast and Locusts allowing units with them to march, a large living component etc; I really don't see why you'd ever choose to spend the points on them. I have another idea that I sort of wanted to suggest as far as the cultists go when we got to the Special section, if there is any opening for new suggestions.

-I think your option would make them much more expensive, and certainly take them into the Special section of any other comparable army. They could have 3 attacks + impact hits as well, all with re-roll to-wound and unbreakable (again, what is the purpose of the current Nagashi rule if all units are going to overrule it in the first place?).. This is a Core choice cultist idea, hence the low cost etc.
If what you wish to see in the list is comparable to the empire Flagellaants, then they don't belong in the Core section.
The reason why the impact hits went against the cultists was that they are by and large untrained fighters, and this would make them struggle with properly organized infantry etc, but they could still swarm over less numerous (and larger type) models. They are not designed to be good vs. everything. The idea was to rely on the explosives a bit more to take care of solid blocks of infantry. If they have 3-4 attacks, with re-rolls to wound, they suddenly become very good vs most units in the game, even if all (surviving) enemies get to strike back. Against the likes of orcs (high toughness/low armour) they'd be phenomenal... Also, personally don't like the idea that "frenzy" is the only way to bring across any "cultist" aspect in the game.

-If they're too frenzied and insane to carry banners bother with musicians etc, I have some problems seeing them lighting the bomb fuses as well to be honest...
But again, this stems from my view that "cultist" is not synonymous with Frenzied lunatic (well, perhaps a Khorne one let out of his cage that is)...

Units we are keeping:

Favoured Ones
Dark Riders

Agreed.

Anymore thoughts on Zombies yet?

Nope. Nothing more than the "Revenant" (more elite zombie) option I suggested to The Dread King. Better zombies, but with a more limited unit size, and no summoning of new ones until the casualties are there so to speak. Hence the suicidal cultists... :tongue:
We've just had a general discussion them so far however.

 

[The Dread King]

We may as well drop the old skeletons, but if we will do this we will need to review what can cost-effectively bunker our wizards-can characters join units of Favoured Ones? If not, I think that we'll have an issue.

New idea alert! You could have some sort of warmachine that fired GIANT naphta jars that, when they hit, used the template (wuhahahahaha!!! Take that, you dirty skaven! Our bombs are bigger than yours!).

I personally don't mind whether they flee or not, but withdrawing through the unit is cool and we'll have to make a few wordy explanations to show that enemys cannot rout them/do the other things that they do to fleeing units (we're talking about nasty spells, rules and characters here).

Maybe the cataphract should have light armour and be fast cav? This would make it more of a support option for the legion, harrasing the enemy's flanks to weaken them so that the legion can deliver a punishing blow.

Well, if you're going to put suicidal units into core, then you'll have to be careful not to make them too vulnerable-otherwhise they may just be epic fails (I'm talking about how nasty the impact hits would be on a cultist horde)! Maybe they could have some sort of protection like savage orcs do (they have warpaint that gives them a 6+ ward save)? On the idea of eastern explosives, maybe the exploding cultists can work a bit like night goblin fanatics? I know there was a discussion on this in the original voting process (yes, I read that thread!) so I think maybe the issue should be re-raised. I think that we should leave Aspiring Necromancers to the Necrophytes and if zombies can have a standard and a musician, then cultists honouring and worshipping Nagash in a 'standard bearer' way is not that unlikely in my opinion.

Dark Riders and Favoured Ones seem alright, I think that Favoured Ones should be able to have characters in them though (this represents the remnants of their humanity).

Zombies-I think this should be like VC, however an alternative would be a bit like Uziel's revenant idea:

-After terrain is set up, rolll a D6

-This is how many "mass graves" are set up on the board (a lot of people have died somewhere; it's the warhammer world!)

-LoN necromancers in the game can choose to focus on the graves when casting a raising spell

-By focusing on a grave (nominated by the LoN player before the start of casting the spell), units of zombies have to have one of their models at least within 3 inches of the grave (which is shown with a small marker)

-The benefit is that the number of potential zombies raised is more than usual and the casting value of the raising spell is lowered to raise these zombies

GRAVES!!! HORDES OF ZOMBIES!!! SCARED OPPONENTS!!! That's Nagash for you!

 

[Uziel]

The Dread King:

-The option to elect to Flee as a charge response in no way forces them to take panic tests or anything similar. They are still Unbreakable, as all undead are, and thus also Immune to Psychology as well...

-Changing the cataphract would make them contest the tactical area of the Dark riders, nd we really don't need two units that are too similar. Also, the whole name/concept would have to be changed. What is wrong with a medium cavalry btw? Don't really see why everything has to be kick-ass to be useful...

-The cultists are suicical, i.e extremly expendable. Why waste time producing armour for someone you're just going to raise again and get round two out of as zombies (from a fluff perspective at least)? The impact hits only makes Hordes of Infantry very good at dealing with the cultists, which is intentional as the last thing I want to see is a Core unit that is good vs.everything, hence being the only one chosen if there is any kind of competitive play to be done.. What#s the point of a Core option as the eternal Legion if the cultists are better at everything, and cheaper too? Even if the cultists do loose a combat, they're going to do some damage (even without the explosive upgrade). any 'suicidal' unit should by nature be somewhat of a gamble, while the undead element should be the reliable element of the list...

-Zombies: I think it is a really good idea to separate us from the VC list as far as how zombies are used in the list. One list being a zombie bonanza is enough. There is something to be said for adding some uniqueness, and not just copying another list.

-Personally, I don't see Nagash's hordes as that dependent on finding graveyards etc, as he (and by extension his Dark Lords) have all the time in the world to build their armies, sitting as securely in Nagashizzar as just about anyone in the Old world. The rebuilding of his legions may take a thousand years, but so what? Raising Hordes of zombies just seems to make the Legions of Nagash list a bit to "opportunistic" in my view. This is also part of the reason why I made the Eternal Legion with a set size. agash's minins don't bother with adding some more skeletons to an existing Legion, they make a whole new legion instead. Not saying that zombies are not raised etc, but I would argue that it would be proportinally less than in any VC army...

 

[The Dread King]

OK, I think medium cavalry wouldn't be so bad-the cataphract seems OK tactically

Thanks for clarifying about the javelin auxiliary, Uziel

I don't think that zombies should be abandoned, and by "mass grave" I don't mean graveyard, I mean pile of dead bodies-when the VC book talks of necros breaking into tombs etc., I think that Nagash's necromancers would be able to tap into the source of death and do just that

Cultists: heavy armour just looks good on models; it just feels right that those who choose to serve Nagash should have it. However, I could accept that Nagash wouldn't want them to have it. To make the cultists more suicidal, maybe it could be spiked heavy armour that did impact hits, like the Armour of Gork.

 

[Uziel]

Cataphract:

As far as the Catapharcts go, a thought struck me yesterday btw. I have to change the "synergy" rule which helps protect the legion a bit. The thought struck me that the way it is written at the moment, makes it hugely beneficial for the Eternal Legion unit and the Cataphract to charge the front of the same unit, and with some cunning placement etc, the Cataphract could be placed so that not many models would actuallt get to fight, which could severly limit models striking back at them, causing casualties. This would again impact the unstable of the Legion quite unfairly (far more than intended at least). I'll post a fix soon.

Javelin Auxiliary:

No problem D.K

Zombies:

Don't think zombies should be abandoned either, but at the same time I really wouldn't like to se the same zombies or the same principle being applied to them as in the VC army. "Borrowing too strongly from existing armies is generally not a good idea.
I'd agree that they would not bypass tombs etc, but I would argue that because of the remote location of Nagashizzar, long march distances etc, that most zombies would have been picked clean and would essentially have become skeletons (re-raised for that purpose mind you) long before they typically would reach anywhere to pose a threat.

Cultists:

I'm off course talking about the Core cultists here, and lets face it, they are supposed to represent the people across the Old world which for some reason or another join a Cult of Nagash, and since this is definitively NOT a warrior cult in nature, weapons and especially armour would be in short supply. Most wouldn't really have the physique to really move around it in the first place. Besides, we're already going to have more than enough armoured models in this list from what I can see. No need to make everything too similar.
I quite like the idea of them just wearing hooded black robes to be honest, and carrying serrated sacrificial blades. Haven't found the models for them yet though...
I think the armour of Gork is a very special case, not to mention that it requires a muscled gorilla sized beast behind it to drive the spikes home.. hehe

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

-It is a tactical withdrawal (hence the automatic rally), but in game terms the charge response will still be flee. I don't see the need to write a whole "tactical withdrawal" special rule just for this. Wood Elves are far from the only army that can benefit from a tactical retreat as well..

-From what we know of ancient warfare, troops with javelins were used to run towards enemy lines to harass and bait enemy units, and your suggestion takes them in another direction tactically. Not really sure they have much of a tactical use with your suggestion, the points can probably be better spent on just reinforcing the battle line instead. I also don't like how bungled up they would become with such a close proximity to the legion. Also, having them in front of the legion would really impact which tactics could be effectively employed by the legion itself. So on this I disagree. I like the tactical options my version gives the army much better, as it gives both them and the army much more tactical flexibility.

-The Jars are pretty much like hand grenades, or just a little bigger. I guess you've seen 300. The ones that the Persians have there is sort of my inspiration here.

Ok, as a compromise can we at least call the rule where they flee "Tactical Withdrawal", so it at least gives them impression that is what the unit is doing rather than just legging it like an elf xd

Jars make sense at that size. So ok with than unit.


Cataphract - I still don't really see them being chosen that much compared to the other choices. However I am willing to give them some playtesting and see how they pan out.

I must say that I find it a bit odd that you don't agree that there could be some "hedge-wizards/necromacer type acolytes mixed in among the hordes of cultists (enough to let them Channel at least), and at the same time you're arguing for the rituals on non-wizard characters, on the basis that it is not magic. If it is not magic, then it should be really easy to train thousands of cultists to do the same, and the army would be invincible... Any kind of "magical" effect, needs to be based on the winds of magic, hence it IS magic...

That is not what I said. I said: ......odd few that would show such aptitude in the LoN would most likely not be used for cannon fodder but trained up." The Legion is based around magic. It makes no sense for them to find someone with magical aptitude and put them in a suicidal unit that will very likely get totally killed. It makes much more sense they will train them up in some fashion.

I know it is a bit early to bring it up, but I think I should mention that I don't really like the synergy effect of the current necrophytes, as they are basically just another way to remove the army's marching weakness, with some protection vs ranged attacks, and little else to them. with the ease of the rituals being cast and Locusts allowing units with them to march, a large living component etc; I really don't see why you'd ever choose to spend the points on them. I have another idea that I sort of wanted to suggest as far as the cultists go when we got to the Special section, if there is any opening for new suggestions.

One thing you seem to be doing is comparing units based on old rules to some of the new rules we have discussed. We have not even started on the special yet, so it is hardly fair to compare them to the Locus rule we have just brought up. Yes we need to review the unit, but we will come to that in that thread. By all means if you have an alternative rules suggestion, propose it.

-I think your option would make them much more expensive, and certainly take them into the Special section of any other comparable army. They could have 3 attacks + impact hits as well, all with re-roll to-wound and unbreakable (again, what is the purpose of the current Nagashi rule if all units are going to overrule it in the first place?).. This is a Core choice cultist idea, hence the low cost etc.
If what you wish to see in the list is comparable to the empire Flagellaants, then they don't belong in the Core section.
The reason why the impact hits went against the cultists was that they are by and large untrained fighters, and this would make them struggle with properly organized infantry etc, but they could still swarm over less numerous (and larger type) models. They are not designed to be good vs. everything. The idea was to rely on the explosives a bit more to take care of solid blocks of infantry. If they have 3-4 attacks, with re-rolls to wound, they suddenly become very good vs most units in the game, even if all (surviving) enemies get to strike back. Against the likes of orcs (high toughness/low armour) they'd be phenomenal... Also, personally don't like the idea that "frenzy" is the only way to bring across any "cultist" aspect in the game.

-If they're too frenzied and insane to carry banners bother with musicians etc, I have some problems seeing them lighting the bomb fuses as well to be honest...
But again, this stems from my view that "cultist" is not synonymous with Frenzied lunatic (well, perhaps a Khorne one let out of his cage that is)...

Yeah...I'm thinking I have gone overboard with these. Fair enough. Basically I am looking at this premise:

Weak cultists - cannon fodder
Brainwashed into thinking that dying for Nagash is a good thing - so do not fear dying etc
Their faith is their strength, hence if that faith is undermined (such as they general dying), then they are no longer certain.

So with the above, what alternative ruleset would you suggest?


Zombies: I think it was Uziel who suggested raise in game only. Further thoughts in this make me tend to agree with it. I do however we should have our on version, something a bit tougher maybe?

 

[Uziel]

DoN:

-Javeling auxiliary: Ok, let's call it tactical withdrawal then. No biggie. I'l consider a re-write.

-Cataphract: I do see that the unit perhaps doesn't make sense to some people at first glance, especially the elitists so to speak, but the same can be said for the Skeleton Horsemen in the TK list.
This unit is primarily here to aid the eternal Legion though, as are the Javelin auxiliary. The idea is that the strength of the Eternal Legion is lies not in being a cheap delivery system for close combat characters, but rather that the strength of it and its auxiliaries lie on tactical flexibility and co-operation.
If this doesn't go well together with the "elite" concept of the army , then I think it might be better to just go back to a normal skeleton unit, and instead just add heavy armour or something similar.

-Cultists and magic: The thought behind the cultists and channeling is that the majority of the hedge wizards and the like, that do find their way to nagashizzar, are of very limited magical potential, and are not ones that can be trained to be a "necromancer" version comparable to a battle wizard. Most wizards in warhammer do not reach these levels of skill, no matter how hard they study/train, and it is these that I envision that are callously thrown in with the rest of the cultists, and are thought incantations which helpt gather some dhar to the battlefield. It is not as if they gt to go home after they discover the limits of their potential after all I imagine... Those that are found to have some real potential, would off course be trained as you suggest.

-Necrophytes: I wasn't aware that there were some ideas for new rules for them in the making so to speak. If so, I stand corrected. I didn't realize that this unit was one that was that open to alteration, as I got the impression earlier that only units with a good justification for change would be changed, and I haven't read anywhere that anyone except me and you have mentioned them so far. If this is being considered, I think it is a good thing though.

-Nagashi Acolytes:

I'm thinking these are the basic weak cultists as well. Considering who would most likely join nagash of mortals in the Old world, I can hardly see the typical cultist having a warrior background. I also think that many of them would perhaps been born in Nagashizzar (as it sounds very unlikely that since it is such a remote and hard to get to place), that a lot of them would in fact not be overly fanatical, but equally fearful of their masters, hence the ItP within the general's IP range).

Tactically, I think it is important that they don't overshadow the "professional" soldier element of the list, but that they still have their uses and tactical strengths (which is part of the reason why I suggested the Channeling option as well, as this allows them to be more than just suiciders).

I don't really see the need for an alternative ruleset to bring this across to be honest, as I think the general's ItP fits quite well. This will in the vast majority of cases get them to where you need them to go, so they are more than reliable enough I think.

Zombies:

I agree. If it is raise only, the Zombie/Revenants could have better stats. This based on Nagash's more powerful necromancy. The Dread King did suggest that we perhaps should include them from the start as we might lack proper "bunkers" for our Wizard characters, and this is something that we should consider as well. One idea was to perhaps alloe a "zombie" unit with a strting size of 10-20, but which could them be added to if one wished, once the casualties were there etc.

 

[The Dread King]

Javelin Auxiliary: resolved.

Cataphract:Okey dokey. I think that it could stay the same; it sounds viable ruleswise, after all. I DO want to keep the Eternal Legion; it was an awesome contribution and I that it makes far more sense than skeletons with heavy armour.

Hedge wizards: Everyone has magical potential, it's just that some find it harder to unlock that potential than others. I think that it is possible that you could have the hedge wizards in there, and so this rule could be kept. However, it is likely that those more ambitious will refrain from comitting suicide so that they can do their dark studies. Still this rule could be kept.

Cultists: we shouldn't make them worse than zombies (otherwise Nagash would just kill them) so prof. soldier profile looks alright (minus light armour) because the dark magic in nagashizzar will have made them stronger.

You could have the zombies as a special choice (it sounds strange, but it might work) at a set unit size (100!) and a decreased points cost. They would have to be different to VC zombies. Another thing you could do was have them as raise only and have the spell that summons them like the old IoN (i.e. all casters know it in addition to their other spells). You could allow the caster to build a unit around him/herself so that he/she automatically joins it in he magic phase. This would encourage you to make you own bunkers and use zombies to creep up behind enemies.

Necrophytes: resolved.

Eastern explosives: could be used like true suiciders (like fanatics). They cover themselves in black powder and bombs and hurl themselves at the enemy, causing a small template explosion where they land, after moving like a reliable fanatc. This is the outline of an idea-would this idea work? I just think that template bombs would be cool.

 

[Uziel]

Hedge wizards: No. In the Old World, everyone does NOT have a magical potential. Being born with this is a major curse in fact, and it is one which most often lead to damnation in one way or another. A rare few are found to have the potential and necessary strength of will, to be inducted into the Colleges of Magic, willingly or not.. Think of them as psykers in 40k, and you won.t go far wrong. This is also why I am so against the idea of "Wights" using the rituals btw.
The majority reach their peak as hedge wizards (with no battlefield-applicable magic), and it is these poor souls that I envision being thrown in together with the common cultists, where they can at least provide some use before they are sacrificed...

Cultists: Cultists will provide skills needed to forge an army for one thing, so he would never kill them off just for the sake of it. Zombies don't work very well as smiths, scribes, peons which to take out your frustrations etc.. hehe My point here is that they have a use far beyond just their function on the battlefield, which is also why they are not trained for this task. It is not as if Nagash doesn't have enough skeletons in the first place, and secondly, when they die and rise again as zombies, what use is their training then?
This is why I think WS 2 is good enough for them. We have WS 3 skeletons to compensate after all.
Also Dark Magic generally doesn't not make people stronger. It's effects are generally much more harmful than it does good as far as I understand it..

Eastern explosives: The Explosion already uses the Large Template to represent it's effect. If you're talking about every model counting as a "bomb", it becomes too unrealistic to me, as it just needs one fool to time it wrong (and we're talking about black powder fuses here btw), for the whole unit to blow itself to pieces before even reaching the enemy.. Not to mention the multiple template issue would be pretty time consuming to deal with etc.. It would also almost certainly require them to be Unbreakable (for the whole unit to have bombs and be THAT suicidal), and both consepts would increase their points by sa lot, and look far more like a Special/Rare unit (depending on explosive strength etc) than a Core one.

 

[Chaos_Born]

If a fully trained wizard can only channel one sixth of the time, then surely a wizard with no potential for casting decent magic has little hope! If the group has enough ability to channel, then between them they should have enough to cast at least some form of rudimentary magic. I don't want them to be able to cast magic I should point out, but it's kind of silly if they could only do one or the other.

Sorry about butting in;)

 

[Uziel]

It is not a question of one wizard with no real battlefield applicable magic to channel, but a small group of them working together.
Channeling and actually casting spells are pretty different in nature, as one is to just help gather/draw the winds of magic to the area in general, while the other is actually having the skill/willpower/magical potential to actually make use of the winds of magic in a meaningful manner.
Having several low level wizards in one room, does not combine these factors, and with the complicated nature of casting spells, they could not somehow combine their skills to create a battlefield-applicable effect. In fact, the closest similar circumstances we have to compare this with in warhammer lore, is the Circle of Light Wizards (one proper wizards, with multiple acolytes to help him focus the spells he already know etc) and the old Thrall wizards of Tzeentch, which worked in a similar way.

My conclusion here is that there is a real tangible difference between power and skill, and that lesser acolytes etc do have the option to help as far as power gathering goes, but not affect the skill level of the caster in the first place.

We welcome all feedback Chaos_Born. :) All people taking an interest with the aim of contributing somehow is welcome to take part.

 

[Chaos_Born]

Well I'm convinced.

As for the zombies issue, I really like the fluff behind having better, raise only zombies. The idea that the magic is better but the necromancers are too impatient to dawdle along behind zombies on a long march is great. Just thinking about rules wise and the use of this in battle and came up with a vague idea. How about that you can raise normal vampire counts level zombies at any time, and then there is a second better tier of zombies that you can only raise when stuff has died. Maybe something like you need to keep track of all non-undead infantry or cavalry models that die, for each one that does you can raise one 'fresh zombie' which could have toughness 4 to represent the fact that their flesh hasn't started decaying.

I'm not good at formulating fully thought out units and rules, but I can come up with ideas:)

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Just on my way out (Mother's Day!), however just a couple of notes (I will reply properly later):

Cultists - I am with Uziel. They should have poor non-warrior stats. As long as they have some kind of suicidal special rule that makes them worthwhile taking, I think they are viable. I was also think we could tie in a rule in regards to zombies with them. Will extrapolate later.

Zombies - Raising stronger zombies is the way I think we should go.

Hedge Wizards - As said before, it is too similar to the Necrophyte concept we have in special. We should leave such ideas until we discuss them and have a look at their rules.

 

[Uziel]

DoN:

Cultists: If you're on board with the cultists being used in a sacrificial manner, and having a second use as more powerful zombies, we don't need to make this more complicated than letting all Alive troops in the army that we loose being potential new zombies, so the same would apply to ghouls, dark riders etc as well. As they are slain, we could just put them in a "zombie box", and when we successfully cast the required summoning spell, AL of them came back (replaced with zombie models) in one unit. The cool think about this is that if we can manage to wait before casting the spell, we get more in return when we do finally cast it etc.

Hedge Wizards: Not sure if there has been a misunderstanding here somewhere, but they are not being proposed as a new unit or anything. It has just been part of the Channeling discussion regarding the cultists.

We could leave that rule out for the time being though, but I think including it (admittedly at the expense of the Necrophytes in the special section) would be beneficial in the following ways:

-This army will need power dice to truly be effective, pure and simple, probably at the level of the TK army. I'd rather see a small increase in power dice, as to a cheap way to override one of our army weaknesses all together (Neophytes).
-By including this at the Core Stage, we sort of get more of a sense why nagash bothers with cultists in general, or at all. We also get a somewhat closer tie to the cults spread across the old world and how they operate (how they act as a recruitment system for those with magical potential that have fallen outside the system).
-By adding the Channeling at this stage, we open up a slot for a new, more elite cultist unit in the special section.

Zombies:

I'll see if I can throw together a more powerful zombie unit later today, but by all means, I think this is one unit which can benefit a lot by people coming up with various ideas etc. I will call my proposal for "Revenants" though, to keep them separated from the VC zombies, as well as to stay "true" to the nagash triology lore.

 

[Uziel]

Sorry about the delay, but the "Zombies" took a bit longer than I first expected.

Here is my suggestion though, although I have so far refrained from doing anything involving the mechanics of summoning them etc, as I don't know if that will be covered in a spell or not yet. I also gave the option of including one unit (or two in a grand army) of limited size, to have a place to bunker our caster types in the core section of the list.

- Revenants -​

The Dark Lords of Nagash has been taught some of the more refined necromantic arts at the feet of Nagash himself, and one of the things Nagash discovered early on, was how to most efficiently spend his magical power on raising the recently dead, and at the same time allow his concentration be occupied with other matters.
The Revenants do look similar in appearance to normal zombies, except that there is a slight eerie green glow in their eyes, a tell-tale sign of more powerful or refined necromantic lore being employed. The most noticeable difference, between Revenants and Zombies, are that the Revenants seem to be more primal in nature, or in the way that they behave, as they seem to have a small spark of independence which zombies normally lack.
On the battlefield, Nagash’s minions most common use for them, is to not bring them along in the first place, as all manner of crows, rodents tend to feast upon them, slowly turning them into useless bones. The effort of keeping them out of reach of the favored ones and the cultist element in the army is also a partial reason why they are typically not summoned until they are needed. Once battle has begun though, and enough of the Legion’s living element has done their duty and been sacrificed to weaken the enemy, the Revenants are typically raised in the middle of or behind the enemy’s main battle line, often turning what looked to become a solid victory, into a thrashing defeat.

Revenant: M 2d6, WS 2, BS -, S 3, T 4, W 1, I 1, A 1, LD 2

Troop Type: Infantry
Special Rules: Always Strikes Last, Legion of Nagash Undead, Random Movement (2d6)

Relentless Horde of Horrors: The Revenants advance in a tightly packed and shambling horde, spilled guts hanging, the most horrific wounds showing, and seems overcome by an irresistible primal urge to feed on all before them, regardless of the martial discipline of the foe facing them.

The unit counts as having the fight in Extra Ranks special rule. In addition to this, any enemy unit in base contact with a unit of Revenants that has more ranks of five or more models in it than it does, has to roll an additional d6 for their fear test, and select the two highest dice rolls.

Primal Instincts: Unlike most undead, the Revenants are only loosely tied to the will of the general. When summoned, only the primal part of the brain is brought back to a state of undeath, which allows a necromancer to only use a fractional part of his power to keep them on their feet, and this also means that it takes no toll at all on the Necromancer if one or more of them gets slaughtered again.

Unlike most undead, the Revenants are not subject to the Unstable special rule at all. They do crumble as normal if the general dies though.

The Walking Dead: Due to their primal instincts being in control, the Revenants generally seek out fresh meat to rend and consume with the help of their sense of smell and ability to hear, as their eyes seems to have some problems registering what they see, especially at a distance.

Unless it is accompanied by a character with the Locust special rule, or within the Inspiring Presence range of the General at the start of the turn, one must measure to find which non-undead unit is the closest (friend and foe), whereupon the zombies get a free Reform, before they are moved 2d6 inches directly towards them in the compulsory sub-phase of the movement phase. It they make it into base contact, they count as charging as per the normal rules for Random Movement. A unit of Revenants can always Reform in close combat, and a LD test is always assumed to have been passed.

If for some reason, they end up attacking a friendly unit, they will continue to do so until a character with the Locust rule joins them, or the general has moved so that he is within his Inspiring Presence range. The zombies will then move back 1” from the friendly unit, just as if they had failed to assault a garrisoned building. They can then use the free reform, but will not be able to move until their next movement phase.

Army List (Core):​

One unit can be included as a Core Option, or two in a Grand Army.

Cost: 9 points per model
Unit Size: 10-20
Weapons: Tearing hands and teeth (Hand Weapon).
Armour: None.
Options: None.

This is one way of doing it though, but admittedly there are other ways to go about it as well.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I really like the Revenants - great idea xd Though it name does conflict with the character - we will need to look at this.

In regards to Primal Instincts however, does this effectively make them unbreakable? Then again I suppose that is fine considering you can only really have one unit before battle and you have to raise the others.

In regards to the spell - I think we do need to mention it now to ensure we don't create a unit that is too powerful to be summoned.

Personally I like the idea of summoning back the alive elements that have already died and / or Revenants that have died (presumably there would still be enough flesh to bring it back again).

As a basic premise, all units that are not dead, when they die the player should put them to one side. We should then have a spell that had two power levels. When cast you roll a D6 per model, and those that pass a role come back. Lower spell has a higher dice roll, higher spell has lower dice roll.

Rolling dice should ensure that a reasonable percentage doesn't come back if there are lots of dead models, it would be unfair to actually bring back 50 models with once cast for example.

As for Revenants that have already died, I would say that these could be healed like skellies can, however they cannot go above their starting number. The starting number is based on the unit size AFTER any models raised from previously alive units has been added.

I.E

Starting size: 20 > Can heal upto 20
Extra 15 models added due to previously alive models.
New unit size: 35 > Can heal upto 35.

Basically you are just bringing back the models that were already there. We could work it into the fluff by saying that Nagash's alive troops have a rune or something branded into them, which allows them to be brought back such a fashion, hence why it doesn't work in the enemy.

 

[Uziel]

-Forgot that there was a character called "Revenant" when I wrote it. I just used the catch-all term for riased undead from the Nagash triology for them. "Super-zombie" just didn't sound right. hehe

-Yes, they are unbreakable. To compensate, you can only start with one unit, of very limited size, which you most likely won't be able to increase in size until casualties start to mount. What I was thinking, was to balance this out with how the summoning apsect worked and the spells themselves etc.. They are not as likely to be a big factor until later in the game, which one also have to consider overall when looking at them. I really don't like the concept of zombies that drop because the zombies around them are chopped down from a fluff perceptive.

-That spell idea could work. Certainly a good way to have the dice rolls to balance things if it becomes to easy to re-raise them etc :)
Still, not something we have to decide at this stage, but we should keep the unit in mind when we take a second look at the spell section, assuming these "Revenants" are not replaced by some other proposal etc. I was thinking that to create a new unit, one would perhaps have to use the "Great Ritual of Nagash" spell. Lesser versions could only add to pre-existing units. Originally I thought that one could raise dead enemies as well, but while true to some fluff etc, it is not really equally applicable vs all armies, and realistically, there would also be a whole lot of varioations in armorur worn etc. The cultists/ghouls are all without armour, so this kind of solves this issue if only friendly living troops that have been slain can be re-raised as "Revenants".

-I wasn't really considering letting the unit size having any implication on summoning at all, but that again depends on how the spells will work etc. This is why i didn't do much with it at this stage. Feel free to edit the unit as appropriate.

That could be one way of working it into the fluff. One would assume that they had at least sworn their souls to Nagash as a term of service in any case, and that that in itself was enough to bind them easier.

 

[Chaos_Born]

I think making them unbreakable but not unstable, and then able to resurrect them is too much. Esspecially for toughness 4 guys. I like all of the rules for them other than this.

As for the raising, I was under the impression that they would be raised as new units in the manner of raise dead, rather than just increasing the size of your one unit. Then the number of models you could raise was limited by the living models that have died during that game. Not that I dislike your idea, you might just need to clarify it slightly

 

[Uziel]

This is the reason why the original unit size is 10-20 for the unit that you can start with, to prevent it becoming too big an unbreakable unit. I realize that we are threading a somewhat uncharted territory here, and I'm not saying that everything is set in stone or anything, just that there are many variables that we can start with to get it to work. Reducing toughness to 3 is one option to name one. Having to summon a new unit from the ground up so to speak, is much less powerful than adding to an existing one, which is the reason why Unbreakable without the Unsttable is doable in my immediate opinion.

The basic idea was to use a "pool" of our so called Alive models as a basis of how many could be raised and so on, that is true, and the initial idea was that you should raise a new unit, but then Dread King brought up the concern that we didn't have many suitable units for bunkering our caster types in from the Core section, which made me opt for the second reason as well.

On a side note, I really liked DoN's suggestion of rolling for all the models in our "alive casualty pool" to see how many was raised back. Having this as a basis for our greatest summoning spell could be really cool. We might not be able to raise things as often as a VC army, but when we do, it has a bigger impact. Just a general thought that we could look at when we get this far. quite like that it is so easy to modify the required dice roll to adjust the power level.