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LoN: Update to 8th Edition (VC Book): Core

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Chaos_Born

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#51
If you want a bunker, why not just use some skeletons? Why would the aloof uber-necromancer hang around with the rotting, smelly, bloodmad ones? It just seems a bit weird to be able to have a unit, but only one. Either they should be normal core or rasie only IMO.

I think they should stay at toughness 4, that's more justified fluff wise than no unstable I think. However there would need to be some serious limitation on your ability to resurect them if you want to keep them as unstable, because otherwise you get the ultimate tarpit. They have to kill 20 guys in one round of combat, otherwise you can just raise them back.

I like the whole idea of the revenants, but I can't help but feeling that making them unbreakable is too good if you can have a unit of twenty in the first place. Maybe if they were raise only and you could only raise small units, but otherwise...
 

Uziel

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#52
I rather imagine that the more powerful ones will bunker in units of pinnacle guard and the like to be honest. Bunkering among the Revenants are more a suitable option for the level 1 and 2 wizards of the list. Maybe that limitation can be removed. The number of Locusts needed to restrain them from turning on your own in the battle-line will more than likely be enough to keep them mostly as a summoning unit, as will their slower movement overall (average 7", with only 2d6" for charging as well).

I think they should stay at toughness 4 as well, especially as they are quite "fresh", and a lot of them are raised ghouls etc, and the idea that they can somehow take less damage when they have little in the way of vulnerabilities doesn't really make a lot of sense. We did want better zombies in this list as well, and I do think these represent a more horror-movie type zombie in rule terms than the VC ones.

If you are allowed to start increasing the size of your 20 strong starting unit early one, then agree. It will become a tarpit unit that is very hard to deal with, even with its random movement and so on.
This will be somewhat limited due to the casualties not being there etc, but that might not be enough. One thing we could do, was to disallow adding revenants to an existing unit. Every time the "great summoning" spell was cast, you created a new unit of them. I think that the argument can be made that once a revanent body is "killed", it is beyond the ability to be re-raised as well, as you basically have to take its head off to stop it in the first place, hence the toughness of 4.
That could compensate nicely for them being unbrakable and not unstable...
There is also something to be said for keeping the way they work different from the VC zombies in general..
 

Chaos_Born

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#53
Uziel said:
I think that the argument can be made that once a revanent body is "killed", it is beyond the ability to be re-raised as well, as you basically have to take its head off to stop it in the first place, hence the toughness of 4.
That could compensate nicely for them being unbrakable and not unstable...
I agree that this is a good counter measure, making the unstable-proof workable. Top idea Uziel:thumbsup:
 

The Dread King

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#54
I hate to put a magic spanner in the undead works, but if undead characters face combat in a unit of revenants, and if the revenants lose, then everything the revenants lost the combat by will come crashing down on the characters as unstable wounds loss-basically, unless you have a zenith lord in your revenants, your average bunkering wizard is likely to suffer/die. Also, can unstable characters join stable units? I don't think so; I think that a rule should be clarified for the revenants which allows unstable characters to join them.

The zombies charging towards alive units could be quite tricky to deal with-they might flank your outriding cavalry and a cunning opponent with redirectors/certain spells etc. could use your revenants against you, dragging them towards their outriders and then luring them ever closer to yours. Opponents being able to use your models aginst you to that extent is a bit harsh (in my opinion).
 

Uziel

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#55
The Dread King said:
I hate to put a magic spanner in the undead works, but if undead characters face combat in a unit of revenants, and if the revenants lose, then everything the revenants lost the combat by will come crashing down on the characters as unstable wounds loss-basically, unless you have a zenith lord in your revenants, your average bunkering wizard is likely to suffer/die. Also, can unstable characters join stable units? I don't think so; I think that a rule should be clarified for the revenants which allows unstable characters to join them.

The zombies charging towards alive units could be quite tricky to deal with-they might flank your outriding cavalry and a cunning opponent with redirectors/certain spells etc. could use your revenants against you, dragging them towards their outriders and then luring them ever closer to yours. Opponents being able to use your models aginst you to that extent is a bit harsh (in my opinion).
I don't think the character issue needs addressing on the zombie unit itself, but should be handled in the character section/army rules section, as it is more of a "general" issue.
"Stable" characters can not normally join an Unstable unit, nor may they join an Unbreakable one (unless they themselves are Unbreakable), which is why Necromancers are always considered to be Undead in the VC lists, even though they may technically be living humans.

The fact that the caster type characters can be slain because of the Unstable effect, while however wrong it can be, is the norm in TK/VC armies, and not something particularly odd in the LoN list. With non-unstable zombies, with T4, this is already FAR less of a problem in this list than in the VC/TK ones.
If your're making a case for having "alive" casters, then we will need a set of rules for the characters in the army which addresses this.
This issue doesn't need clarification as far as the Revanants go, but rather a clarification of how we see this working in the list overall.

The out of control zombies are only an issue in the starting units IF you deploy them without any characters directing them. The summoned option, can be deployed cunningly, so that you minimize the risk of them going out of control.
This special rule was designed to make a more powerful Core unit have some weaknesses which prevents it from just becoming another "above average" Core unit.
I certainly don't mind the idea that a good player can use his wits to outsmart me as far as zombies are concerned, as that is how "lesser" armies are supposed to be able to win. Pure power has to come at a price for balance reasons. :)
 

The Dread King

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#56
Out of control zombies: point taken. I won't worry about the summoned ones until we get to the spell that summons them.

Unstable: but can unstable characters join stable units? If not, then we still don't have a good core bunker for our necros-the zombies are stable and so the necros cannot join them, as the necros are unstable. If unstable characters can join stable units, looking at the revenants again, I realise the necros crumbling isn't so bad after all-point taken.
 

Uziel

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#57
The Dread King said:
Unstable: but can unstable characters join stable units? If not, then we still don't have a good core bunker for our necros-the zombies are stable and so the necros cannot join them, as the necros are unstable. If unstable characters can join stable units, looking at the revenants again, I realise the necros crumbling isn't so bad after all-point taken.
Looking at the BRB, it does seem that they can do this, but I imagine this is part of the reason why every unit in the VC book is "Undead", to avoid all complications that could arise if one had to go with the fluff.It doesn't say anything about what happens is a living unit containing an unstable character looses combat or breaks and flees though...
But again, I think this is something best resolved at the army special rules or the character section.
 

The Dread King

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#58
Doubtless, it should be resolved in the rules section, but the outcome of the rule decided will affect these revenants, so we should just put the revenants on hold a bit until that rule is resolved-otherwise we might have to completely change all the work that we've done on the revenants.
 

Uziel

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#59
The Dread King said:
Doubtless, it should be resolved in the rules section, but the outcome of the rule decided will affect these revenants, so we should just put the revenants on hold a bit until that rule is resolved-otherwise we might have to completely change all the work that we've done on the revenants.
There is no way that we're going to complete this without going back and forth a little, to make the odd adjustemnt here and there.
I think the Core section is nearing completion though. I do have some small things to fix on some of the units suggested, but that's about it..

Edit: We really need to get the army special rules done do move on, but it seems that DoN is rather busy at the moment, which I imagine is due to his new job opportunity, so we'll just have to wait and see when he has the time to make the necessary decisions.
 

The Dread King

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#60
DoN has a new job oppurtunity? In the mortal realm or on the forum? Please excuse my ignorance.
 

Uziel

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#61
I just saw something mentioned in another thread. At the time is was talk of a possible new position if I remember correctly, and that his chances were good. I'm just speculating that he might have gotten it, and that this might have taken up a bit more of his time. I might very well be wrong though.
 

The Dread King

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#63
If you can't re-raise zombies, then something's wrong. You've always been able to re-raise undead, revenants should be able to be re-raised. That's not to say that we shouldn't make it hard to re-raise them, instead of the normal D6 + caster's wizard level (this is assuming we will be using a spell similar to IoN), it would be D3+the caster's wizard level. This shows that it's harder to resurrect revenants (you have to repair their bodies more thoroughly than zombies), but it's not impossible.
 
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