Legion of Nagash LoN: Update to 8th Edition (VC Book): Nagash, The Great Lord of Undeath

[The Dread King]

I think that there should be two different special character versions of Nagash (like teenage Mannfred and uber Mannfred): Weak Nagash and Strong Nagash.
Weak Nagash: Nagash as GW says he is, weak but still extremely powerful on the character scale.
Strong Nagash: You'd have to create some interesting fluff reasons, or play a few dynamic battles, to see Nagash returned to his former glory (we're talking about Nehekharan times here). 'Strong Nagash' would be Nagash after he ate a lot of warpstone (granting him a full recovery from his deaths) and with his artefacts. Now, some argue that he'd still be a reasonable character but some say he'd be invincible. I think that when using Strong Nagash, either a reason could be created for him not being invincible or you could take the line that he wouldn't be reasonable but he wouldn't be too big for Warhammer. I believe that he would never be too big for Warhammer unless his power actually increased. It is my opinion that his crown doesn't make him immune to magic, it just gives him a very high resistance to magic. And his Black Armour doesn't give him 2+ ward save at full power, just re-rollable 4+. You get the idea. He would undoubtedly be the most powerful Warhammer character; only used in the biggest battles, but he could still be usable.
Any thoughts on this? Or have I just been ranting unreasonably?[/align]

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

RE: Uber Nagash

At the height of his power he was almost a god.
Its like fielding a mini chaos god, far to powerful for in game stats mate.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

RE: Uber Nagash

I would say no personally.

Nagash in his current state is meant to be around a Great Daemon in strength, which is one of the strongest things in warhammer.

To create a true representation of him at full strength would be too great and something vastly over powered. I admit I am the foremost Nagash fanboy, but even I would be against this. You would either have to tone him down, which makes me think "what's the point?", you are not truly representing him at his height of power. Or you do represent him correct and he would be unplayable.

 

[The Dread King]

RE: Uber Nagash

I still think that there should be a stronger version of Nagash, maybe when he has not healed fully but at least where he can move around on his own,have an awesome ward save, excel at combat and beat Teclis at magic (the last part would be quite funny in a game, imagine the look on the High Elf's face when someone beat him at his own game). Maybe there should only be one version of Nagash, where he is not as weak as GW says but not at full power either. Like I said before, you'd need to have some good fluff (or dynamic battles before you included him in your army) to justify this, but still, it would be quite cool. This has been done before (on a smaller scale in 4th ed Undead army book) so I don't see why it should happen again. In fact, this Nagash could be an update for the old Nagash on the Legion of Nagash army list. You could have him recovered from his death and with his claw and staff but without his crown, or any other mix like that. I think that Nagas should definitely have his staff as there's no point in Arkhan keeping it if Nagash returns. Remember that Nagash is not as strong as a greater daemon in the army list;he can't even walk on his own. He should at least be able to walk and get some combat bonuses.

 

[Count Darvaleth]

RE: Uber Nagash

It would be hilarious though. Just imagine:

*a GW store, the guys are having a big multi-player game to celebrate the release of the new Empire book*

VC Player: Hiya, wondering if I could use this home-brew character...

Manager: As long as he isn't some uber-vampire Abhorash-style character...

VC Guy: Oh no, he's a necromancer.

Manager: Sure thing, stick him on the table.

*five minutes later*

Manager: Ruun! Run for your lives! *screams, poor little Empire playing 10-year olds run crying from the store, VC player left laughing in the middle of a mass of crushed models, standing on the table to represent Nagash*


Hmmm, if the current TVC battle is anything to go by, he'd generate 400 power dice and 300 dispel dice per turn, would be immune to miscasts, always cast with irresistible force, all his power dice count as 6 in the magic phase, he knows every spell in every book and can cast all of them multiple times per phase, has his own extra magic phase at the end of every player turn, has a double-re-rollable 0+ armour save and 2+ ward, a version of the Carstein ring which works automatically and can be re-used seven times, toughness fifteen, and about one-hundred and fifty wounds.

Sounds about right.

EDIT: Of course, you'd have to balance this out by letting your opponent use Tzeentch or something...

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

RE: Uber Nagash

The 4th edition Nagash is what I am referring to as the Greater Daemon in strength. The Nagash at full power would be way beyond that.

So what you are actually saying is that the Legion of Nagash..Nagash is not very strong and perhaps we could look at redoing him.

I can in someways understand your thoughts, I was one of the voices who spoke against that version. It was meant to be a different take on him, and in fairness whilst his body isn't strong his magic is.

I think we need to see from the people who want to help who thinks we should review the Nagash we currently have.

@ Darvy - you have got to admit, the TVC Nagash is pretty epic

 

[The Dread King]

RE: Uber Nagash

Hey, he wasn't ridiculously powerful in 4th ed (around superpowerful character level). I admit that full recovery would be stupid but maybe he could be just a bit more powerful. If you look at the current Nagash, you see an ethereal that's gonna be blasted by runed cannonballs (runed cannons have magic shooting attacks) and killled multiple times until a body that can't even move suddenly dies. I'd say that was pathetic for Nagash. Yes, he is really powerful in some areas but maybe he could be toned down a tiny bit in them so that he could get more powerful in others (e.g.the body and spirit being the same model and killing stuff). Of course, he would be really expensive, but not ridiculous.

 

[The Dread King]

RE: Uber Nagash

Mind if I do another thread for updating Nagash? It would be fun. Besides, he needs updating (I'm not saying he's bad at the moment, but he could get a bit cooler). If this thread is done, though, everyone needs to contribute-we don't want him getting overpowered.

 

[Count Darvaleth]

RE: Uber Nagash

@ Darvy - you have got to admit, the TVC Nagash is pretty epic

He is fairly epic. Although I feel Graveclaw making him bend over then running off with his crown is more epic, especially when you consider the more implicit connotations.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

RE: Uber Nagash

It depends, I think there needs to be more discussion and input from others. It is not fair to dismiss earlier work based on a couple of people, I want to see others opinions first, so I think we see if this thread gets more replies.

 

[The Dread King]

RE: Uber Nagash

Mind if I start a thread for Arkhan,though? Like I said on 'Kickstarting the Legion of Nagash' it's annoying when you can't include Arkhan on an uber chariot in 3000pt games. Can I suggest any new units/characters to add to the legion or am I taking this too far. I don't mind being told I'm going too far, sometimes when I'm not I go into a frenzy and write out a profile for some random unit. By the way, I've updated my post for 'Updating the Crone in the Pyramid to 8th ed' thread.

 

[Questioner]

RE: Uber Nagash

Uber Nagash = Storm of Magic games, methinks.

 

[The Dread King]

RE: Uber Nagash

I suppose that you could have his vast, god-like spirit clawing the enemy's souls into Nagashizzar/doom to further empower him. It would be a dominance cataclysm spell, but it could work.

 

[Count Darvaleth]

RE: Uber Nagash

I think even Storm of Magic is too puny for Nagash. He'd probably be slugging it out with Space Marine Primarchs and Imperator Titans in 40K Apocalypse, and it STILL wouldn't be fair. :slapface:

 

[The Dread King]

RE: Uber Nagash

Games Workshop should fnally release Godhammer. They've been making so many hints at superpowerful beings; Godhammer would make loads of money for them and would be awesome. Each race could have one/a few gods.
Imagine: Tzeentch fighting Morr while fully empowered Nagash duelled with Ulric. Everyone would get a god. Heck, you could even do it as a warhammer expansion like storm of magic on an epic scale. Whole lines of dragon princes being swept aside by the power of all the slann mage priests; Nehekharan gods battling Gork and Mork. It would be extremely funny.:lol:

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

RE: Uber Nagash

So seriously now, how many people:

-Want to see a Nagash more similar to 4th Edition (walking, talking, greater daemon like in stats)

or

-Stick to the current twist on Nagash (body dead, spirit floating around casting spells)

 

[Raizi]

How about Nagash flying around in a Mortis Engine-like apparatus, that's actually the top tip of the Black Pyramid? Something alike the Necrons have in 40k that is just a badass piece on the table and able to obliterate anything within a certain radius. It could even have some innate bound spell that generates skeletons from the Pyramid like Raise Dead.

It could be the mother of all Mortis Engines as those new things only contain small fragments of relics.

And on top of that, you would put Nagash...

[Edit: and perhaps with that Nagash could be something between a man and the gigantic walking clown of 4th edition...]

 

[The Dread King]

I do want to see a more able version of Nagash, similar to 4th edition Nagash. Maybe he shouldn't be greater daemon power level in combat abilities, but he should have magical power similar to what Carpe Noctem gives him. I think that he should have around the strength of a weak lord or a tough hero combatwise, as although he can move around, he is still recovering from his deaths.
I like the mortis engine idea-some massive creation which, as Nagash kills more and more peole through spells and combat, gets more spirits carrying in it and increases in power e.g. when Nagash killed a human because of a spell, he might get another really weak spirit to help him in combat and make the mortis engine generally more powerful (e.g. better regen, more wounds, stronger abilities etc.). Of course, the spirits would have to be quite weak, otherwise Nagash would just be broken.
However, if the mortis engine idea was used, Nagash would have to have a really good ward save (something like 2+) because it would be really annoying if the Supreme Lord of Undeath got killed with a few flaming cannon shots. Nagash should have a really good ward save anyway; if he had the power to create the carstein ring, he wouldn't wear some rubbish armour that would only protect him a bit.
What ever happens to Nagash, the spirit floating around thing is something that I don't think is the best option for Nagash in 8th edition.

 

[Uziel]

RE: Uber Nagash

So seriously now, how many people:

-Want to see a Nagash more similar to 4th Edition (walking, talking, greater daemon like in stats)

or

-Stick to the current twist on Nagash (body dead, spirit floating around casting spells)

First off, I quite like the idea that Nagash is a behind the scenes character for the LoN project, as he would be to costly for a 25% Lord option in most games anyhow, even in his weakened state. If he's able to personally take charge and lead his armies again, then this diminishes his Dark Lords greatly from a fluff perspective in my opinion. I think that in general, Nagash himself is best left out, or as a behind the scenes figure, but...:

IF the LoN project is being based planned for some sort of a Campaign revolving around Nagash when it is complete, then I think it could be cool if he appeared in the final battle (no point cost really needed for him in this case), his strength depending on how well the LoN side have been doing up until then. I'm thinking like how many of his artifacts have been gathered, has he been reunited with Arkhan, Krell, established a connection with the Black Pyramid, found more warpstone, etc, etc..
Wouldn't want him to have his crown back though. All this could lead up to a climatic battle at the end of the campaign, which had its own rules, allowing for an epic conclusion (the possible signaling of a new war on the empire, to get his crown back). This last battle could also be tailored specifically as far as limiting heavy artillery (due to difficult/impossible roads and so on, which would help Nagash shine a bit more, or at least reducing his chances of being taken down by a battery of Empire Great cannons, or something similar..

Personally I think something like this could be awesome, as the possibilities are so many, but I realize that it would aslo involve a lot of work.

 

[The Dread King]

That sounds like a great campaign. Another campaign could be set up from the new Mannfred 8th ed vampire counts fluff where he tries to reach the place to make the sacrifice/ gather the artefacts etc.
But my original take on it was that you spend most of the campaign trying to gather Nagash's artefacts and warpstone (like Uziel suggested) and then, with all the artefacts (including crown) and warpstone , have this massive ritual where the dark lords try to bring his spirit and his body together again. Basically, Nagash would start off as a really weak profile with some good armour in turn 1, but as the turns drew on, more of his spirit would come into his body, and so he would gain more power. If he was still alive by the end of the battle, he would become uber Nagash and his side would automatically win the game. Nagash is an immobile character on a throne. The final battle is a massive arena of death between leaders of the legion of Nagash and the characters leading the side against Nagash. About 1000pts of troops are on each side too, to represent Nagash's bodyguards and the good guys' infiltration force. The battle beforehand is the siege of Nagashizzar (which is a massive storm of magic siege with about 15 different objectives and a ridiculous amount of turns), and this battle takes place inside the throne room of Nagash (where his husk has always sat). An extra 100pts of troops is added to each side for every battle that the side won beforehand. The good guys' objective is to kill Nagash before the ritual is complete, the bad guys objective is to kill all the good guys or keep Nagash surviving until the end of the game. The ritual has already been cast and can only be dispelled by the death (whether permanent or temporary) of Nagash. And yes, some rule must be made so that cannons can't just kill Nagash!
I dealt with the crown of sorcery problem by having it as either a piece of fluff or a weird sort of battle (they both had the same storyline): you had to capture the changeling, make him obey Nagash, get him to imitate a wizard lord, go into the empire vaults and get the crown of sorcery and then give it to Nagash. Battlewise, this would consist of sneaking through the empire vaults without getting 'seen' by empire daemonwatchers and killing any who did see you before they could call a wizard then escaping with the crown.
Like Uziel said though, there are so many possibilities for a Legion of Nagash campaign; it could be taken in any direction that you might want it to go in.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Whilst the campaign is an interesting idea, we are going off at a tangent here. That would be something that we look to do when the LoN is finished.

I can see the reasoning behind perhaps not wanting Nagash, however I don't think it would be right not to have him. He is such an iconic figure if warhammer, and I for one would want to include him.

I am casting my vote to have him back as his 4th edition incarnation, like he is currently being portrayed in the TVC (though less powerful as he has started regaining his power in the TVC).

Before anyone starts suggestion actual rules, we need to decide on this. So the rest of you, please cast your vote.

 

[Uziel]

Whilst the campaign is an interesting idea, we are going off at a tangent here. That would be something that we look to do when the LoN is finished.

I can see the reasoning behind perhaps not wanting Nagash, however I don't think it would be right not to have him. He is such an iconic figure if warhammer, and I for one would want to include him.

I am casting my vote to have him back as his 4th edition incarnation, like he is currently being portrayed in the TVC (though less powerful as he has started regaining his power in the TVC).

Before anyone starts suggestion actual rules, we need to decide on this. So the rest of you, please cast your vote.

I think I have to Vote "Nay" here, but that's just for general army list use (which he'd be much to expensive for in any case). The reasons why being:

-The only available model is shamefully ugly, yet it would also be wrong to use an Ogre model to replace him on the tabletop..

-His creation is going to cause a lot of controversy, and if he has to go through any voting process, I think he will be a LOT of work before he is done. Time is better spent on the army that will for the most part actually be used in my opinion.

-I think that the "Dark Lords" of Nagash would be more fun to explore, as the only"constant" ones we have from the official lore is Arkhan and Krell, since the Vampires abandoned him. That leaves room for seven (I'm assuming that nine is the official number here) mystical Liches, Necromancers, Wight Kings (I'd assume only Krell is really worth mentioning among their company, since Wight Kings tend to be controlled by others in the first place). I'd rather like to see some focus going into creating a Dark Lords creation "kit", as I imagine they will be the ones leading the army for the most part in any actual games.

-When Nagash returns, I think he should do so in a somewhat spectacular fashion, and if he just "sneaks back", some of his uniqueness is lost. He becomes less epic.


On a small side note, is Krell being planned for the LoN project? The model is truly great, but while I don't hate the new rules for him, I think the rules for him are poor in the sense that they makes him into a superb character/monster killer, while in the fluff he was an epic butcher of rank-and-file, and near indestructible (4+ armour save my a&%).. and WHY does he suddenly get Heroic Killing Blow if in the same unit as Kemmler?? Makes no sense at all.. I'd love to redo him if that is possible/deemed the right thing to do for the LoN project. I'm redoing him for the Bloodline Legacies project in any case..

 

[The Dread King]

Well, the most widely known number of dark lords is nine, though it says there were 5 in a citadel journal(and they all had fluff; they were probably Virion the Grim (definetly), W'Soran, Arkhan the Black (defintely), Krell, Lord of Undeath (definitely) and Vashanesh (who some think was a major servant of Nagash despite contracdicting fluff)).
4th edition Nagash is what I vote for over the LoN Nagash; Mortis engine Nagash could be cool but I think 4th ed Nagash (with slightly less power in combat but far better saves (i.e. some rule about him being a liche that works like a re-useable mini-carstein ring and at least a 3+ ward save; he wouldn't give the carstein ring off to some vampire while making himself some armour that was worse than the ring!) would be brilliant, obviously with a few updates which are required when you bring a model 4 editions into the present!

 

[Chaos_Born]

I would cast a vote for a more 'alive' Nagash than the body and spirit in the legion currently. I like the image of him carried by his guard into battle on some kind of throne, and his magical power should be as powerful as it is currently. But I don't think he should quite be as huge a combat beast as he was 4th edition. After all he is still only gathering power, his body is still very weak. Of course for Nagash this would still make him vastly superior to mere mortals, but not up to greater daemon levels of strength.

 

[Uziel]

I have to say I agree with Chaos_Born here, not that he should be in the list, but if he is, that he is treated more like that Mummified Slann special character on his throne, than the way he was in 4th ed. This would also provide a decent baseline for his cost as well ,and most importantly of all, keep his cost down so that he could actually be played from time to time.
The only issue I have with this though is WHY Nagash would go forth in his weakened form in the first place, when he has such powerful servants that could do the job for him...