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LoN: Update to 8th Edition (VC Book): Rare

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Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#1
Right then, onto the Rares, one of which is my baby xD:

Ancient Warrior - 230 pts

With Controller Alive
M 4 / WS 8 / BS 0 / S 5 / T 4 / W 8 / I 8 / A 5 (6) / LD 10

With Controller Dead
M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 5 / T 4 / W * / I 4 / A 2 (3) / LD 5

Equipment
Two Hand Weapons
Heavy Armour

Special Rules

Undead

Forgotten Lore
The warrior has knowledge of martial techniques forgotten may years ago.
At the start of each round of combat the Ancient Warrior may choose to re-roll either his to hit rolls or or to wound rolls.

Power Strike
May choose to swap all its attacks for 1 S10 hit, that causes D6 wounds, these benefit from the forgotten lore rule.

Controller
For the warrior to work at its optimum it must have a controller. There *must* be at least magic user in an army with an ancient and one must be nominated to be the ancients controller. The controller cannot be the armies general.The controller and ancient do not have to stay near each other and operate as normal.
Whilst the both controller and ancient are alive the following applies:
The controller loses 1PD and 1DD in the relevant magic phases.
Ancient has the following benefits

  • Uses the top profile
  • May march move as per the BRB
  • Regeneration
  • Always Strikes First
  • Immune to Killing Blow
  • Magic Resistance (2) against enemy spells only
  • Power Strike as detailed below

If the Controller dies the Ancient loses all the above abilities, and uses the lower profile. In regards to the wounds, halve the remaining amount rounding *down*, this will mean if it has only one wound when the controller dies, the Ancient will die as well. The Ancient also suffers from Crumbling as if the general has died (NB - The general dying has no effect on the Ancient)
If the Ancient dies the controller regains the lost 1PD and 1DD and may use them as normal.


[hr]


Spectral Cavalry - 65pts each - Limit: 1 unit per 2000pts - -

Unit size: 4-10

Spectre - M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 1 / I 3 / A 2 / Ld 5
Champion M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 1 / I 3 / A 3 / Ld 5
Mount - M 8 / WS 2 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 3 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / Ld 2

Equipment:
Spears
Spirit Armour

Options:
-Any unit may upgrade one Specter to a Musician for +20 pts.
-Any unit may upgrade one Specter to a Standard Bearer for +25 pts.
-Any unit may upgrade one Specter to a Champion for +25 pts.
-Any unit may give their Standard bearer a magic banner of up to a total of 90 pts.

Special Rules:
Terror
Undead

Insubstantial -
As per the VC rulebook with the following addition:
They may also charge or march through friendly units as long as they fully clear the friendly unit at the end of their movement, if they fail to clear it either counts as a failed charge if the unit was charging, either way if the remaining movement takes them into the unit they will stop when they touch the friendly unit.
Any friendly unit that the Spectral Cavalry move through either suffer D6 wounds as per crumbling if they are undead, or if alive must take a panic check.
This ability is lost if a character joins the unit.

Spirit Armour
Grants the bearer 2+ armour save, and a 5+ ward save. The ward save does not work vs magical attacks. Movement is not affected by this armour.

Deadly Touch
Attacks do not allow armour saves and count as magical.

Spectral Wind
At the end of the combat phase, if the unit has won combat but not broken the enemy they may choose instead to leave combat by passing through the enemy unit. Roll 3D6 as if pursuing out the back of the enemy unit, providing the distance rolls clears the enemy unit place the Spectral Cavalry appropriately. If the roll is not enough to clear the enemy unit the spectral cavalry remains in position and the enemy will strike first next next combat phase unless their weapons or other special rule prohibits them from doing so (i.e GW), the enemy does not gain any other bonus's i.e strength bonuses.
This ability cannot be used if the Spectral Cavalry has been charged in the flank or rear.
This ability is lost if a character joins the unit.

[hr]

The Black Shards 275pts 1 per 2000pts -

Fashioned out of solid obsidian, these powerful objects are miniature versions of the Black Pyramid that still stands in Nehekhara. Knowing how reliant his armies were on magic Nagash created these to sustain his forces no matter how fitfully the winds of magic blow

Shard…...M * / WS - / BS - / S - / T 7 / W 5 / I - / A - / Ld –
Guardian M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / Ld 7
*See Inanimate special rule

Equipment
The Guardians are equipped with Full Plate Armour, Shields and Handweapons

Special Rules
Undead (Guardians only)
Wight Blades (Guardians only)

Inanimate Object
The Shard is only an enchanted object and thus is completely Unbreakable, and cannot be affected by any objects / spells / rules that affect psychology etc. The Shard can only be moved in battle using the below Levitation spell. Any enemies in BtB contact with the shard automatically hit it, no roll to hit is required.
It has 5 guardians who rank up in front of the shard. They will move to protect the shard at all times, therefore unless the Guardians are already engaged in combat any charges are counted as charging to the front of the unit. Move the Guardians to the relevant unit side.
The Guardians can never leave the Shard, and the combined unit can never charge, not even if affected by spells that would force them to. The power of the Shard protects them against such influences.
The Shard also adds +2 CR.

Nexus
The Shard draws necromantic magic into itself, fuelling the undead nearby and making them nigh on unstoppable. Those alive who follow the rule of Nagash are also reminded of his power, urging them onto to greater feats of bloodshed
The Guardians have a 4+ ward save and the ASF rule.

Any Nagashi with 12” of the Shard at the start of the Legion’s turn automatically rally if fleeing. Otherwise they are entirely immune to fear whilst within 12".

During the magic phase the Shard may cast the Great Awakening from the Lore of Nagash was a bound spell. The power level is determined by rolling 2D6.

Magical Source
The additional power provided by the Shard empowers Liches and Priests if Nagash, giving them the strength to overpower their enemy
Whilst the Shard is still in play, any enemy dispelling attempts are at -1.

Levitation
The shard is slowly lifted off the ground by swirling dark magic and glides forward, its guardians following in its wake
Bound Spell. Power 5. The whole unit may march move at the Guardians movement rate as per the BRB. This movement does not allow the unit to charge.

Catastrophic Power
Filled with such immense energy, destroying the Shard can prove to be just as deadly as letting it continue it’s nefarious work
If the Shard is destroyed roll D6 +4. All units within this range suffer S5 hit on every model. This hit also counts as having the Killing Blow special rule.

[hr]

Bone Thrower - 50pts

Thrower ..........M - / WS - / BS - / S - / T 7 / W 3 / I - / A - / Ld -
Siege Cadaver M 4 / WS 2 / BS 2 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / Ld 5

Unit Size: 1
Crew: 2 Siege Cadavers (Note: The crew can never be increased past its starting size, however it they can be raised back even if both are killed, as long as the Bone Thrower has not been destroyed.)
Weapons and Armour: The Skeleton crew have light armour and hand weapons
Range: 48"
Strength: 5
Damage: D3

Special Rules:
Undead
Bolt Thrower (pierces ranks as per the BRB)
Enscorcelled
Made from the thigh bones of giants, the bolts are fused with magic by the Disciples of Nagash, designed to make sure they do not miss their target
Shots from the Bone Thrower do not suffer from negative range modifiers apply to the shots. All other positive and negative modifiers apply as normal.

Upgrades:
Cursed Ammunition - 25pts
Wrought with runes of death, these deadly bones cause the flesh to rot with the slightest scratch
The player may re-roll any wound caused by the Bone Thrower. They still benefit from the Enscorcelled special rule. The upgraded shots also count as magical.

Upto two Bone Throwers may be taken as a Special choice
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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Messages
27,916
#2
RE: LoN 8th Edition review - Rare

So changes I can see:

Ancient Warrior: Power Strike was originally intended for dealing with larger creatures. I would say change it to Heroic Killing Blow. However I am not sure it is worth swapping all his attacks? Perhaps instead:

May choose to swap all its attacks for 1 attack that benefits from the Heroic Killing Blow rule, and may also re-roll to hit and wound. If the enemy is immune to the Killing Blow special rule, they suffer D6 wounds on a roll of 6 to wound instead.

Also need to change how the controller works in regards to draining magic. Instead of[/i]The controller loses 1PD and 1DD in the relevant magic phases.[/i], change to 1 PD/DD is drained from the controlling players pool in the appropriate magic phase. This is done once the total number of dice is decided (after rolling, PD added from powers), but before any other actions take place (such as the Evocation of Death from the Black Coach). If the Ancient Warrior is killed, then the dice are no longer drained.

Finally, as MR is worse this edition, I think it should be upped to MR (3).

I'll go into the other units later.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
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Messages
2,887
#3
RE: LoN 8th Edition review - Rare

I'm okay with MR3, as well as the need for a PD/DD reword - both given the changes to 8th.

Not sure that anything needs to change with Power Strike at all.

If you wanted it to have Heroic KB, I'd be okay with that, however... I'd prefer something like:

Power Strike
May choose to forfeit half its number of attacks (rounded up) in order to gain the benefit of Heroic Killing Blow, these benefit from the forgotten lore rule.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
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Messages
27,916
#4
RE: LoN 8th Edition review - Rare

Meh, I'm ok with that, so the changes to the Ancient Warrior are:

........

Power Strike
May choose to swap all its attacks for 1 S10 hit, that causes D6 wounds, these benefit from the forgotten lore rule. May choose to forfeit half its number of attacks (rounded up) in order to gain the benefit of Heroic Killing Blow, these benefit from the Forgotten Lore rule.

Controller
...............Whilst the both controller and ancient are alive the following applies:
The controller loses 1PD and 1DD in the relevant magic phases. 1 PD/DD is drained from the controlling players pool in the appropriate magic phase. This is done once the total number of dice is decided (after rolling, PD added from powers), but before any other actions take place (such as the Evocation of Death from the Black Coach).

...............If the Ancient dies the controller regains the lost 1PD and 1DD and may use them as normal. If the Ancient Warrior is killed, then the dice are no longer drained as described above.

[hr]

Spectral Cavalry: Well I remember this was a hotly discussed unit xD

First thing - points again. Are we happy at their cost with how cav have been affected in the 8th?

Secondly I think Insubstantial rule is a bit unclear and needs to be rewritten:

Old:
As per the VC rulebook with the following addition:
They may also charge or march through friendly units as long as they fully clear the friendly unit at the end of their movement, if they fail to clear it either counts as a failed charge if the unit was charging, either way if the remaining movement takes them into the unit they will stop when they touch the friendly unit.
Any friendly unit that the Spectral Cavalry move through either suffer D6 wounds as per crumbling if they are undead, or if alive must take a panic check.
This ability is lost if a character joins the unit.

New:
As per the 7th Edition VC rulebook, with the following addition:
A unit with this rule may move or charge through friendly units as if there are clear terrain (though the unit still blocks line of sight as normal), providing the Insubstantial unit fully clears the friendly unit by the end of the move. If the movement is not sufficient to clear the friendly unit, the Insubstantial unit will stop 1" before the unit.
Any friendly unit that the Spectral Cavalry move through either suffer D6 wounds as per crumbling if they are undead, or if alive must take a panic check.
This ability is lost if a character joins the unit.

Thoughts?
 
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Messages
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#5
RE: LoN 8th Edition review - Rare

Two questions - what unit type is the Ancient Warrior? Perhaps being monsterous infantry would be appropriate, considering his stats?

Also, what's the limitation on taking them? Is it 1 per non-army general magic user, can a single mage control multiple Ancients or just one per army?
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
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#6
RE: LoN 8th Edition review - Rare

You seem kinda indifferent about the power strike change.

I'd be okay sticking your addition in there as well.

Power Strike
May choose to swap all its attacks for 1 S10 hit, that causes D6 wounds, these benefit from the forgotten lore rule. May choose to forfeit half its number of attacks (rounded up) in order to gain the benefit of Heroic Killing Blow, these benefit from the Forgotten Lore rule. If the enemy is immune to the Killing Blow special rule, they suffer D6 wounds on a roll of 6 to wound instead.

Controller - wording looks fine.

MR (3) - don't forget :D

Unit type - how big is that thing? It's just a normal infantry right? Like a really old/powerful wight/vampire/etc? Or should it be something like Ogre/Mino sized?


Also, some kind of limitation on that would probably be a good idea. Wheather that's 0-1, or 1 per full 1,500 pts (ie. 1 at 1.5k, 2 at 3k, 3 at 4.5k), or something else.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
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Messages
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#7
RE: LoN 8th Edition review - Rare

Yep I like your amended wording there Bishop.

Hmmm size. Originally it was just meant to be a man size model that was empowered by a distant controller. However I think it might be better to make it ogre sized?

I don't think there needs to be an additional limitation. The idea is that there is one Ancient Warrior to one caster, and that caster cannot be the general (too busy controlling the rest of the army xD). As this army is not like VC, and they are not all casters they should be quite limited anyway.

Thoughts on the Spectral Cavalry?
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
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Messages
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#8
RE: LoN 8th Edition review - Rare

Disciple of Nagash said:
Spectral Cavalry: Well I remember this was a hotly discussed unit xD

First thing - points again. Are we happy at their cost with how cav have been affected in the 8th?

Secondly I think Insubstantial rule is a bit unclear and needs to be rewritten:

Old:
As per the VC rulebook with the following addition:
They may also charge or march through friendly units as long as they fully clear the friendly unit at the end of their movement, if they fail to clear it either counts as a failed charge if the unit was charging, either way if the remaining movement takes them into the unit they will stop when they touch the friendly unit.
Any friendly unit that the Spectral Cavalry move through either suffer D6 wounds as per crumbling if they are undead, or if alive must take a panic check.
This ability is lost if a character joins the unit.

New:
As per the 7th Edition VC rulebook, with the following addition:
A unit with this rule may move or charge through friendly units as if there are clear terrain (though the unit still blocks line of sight as normal), providing the Insubstantial unit fully clears the friendly unit by the end of the move. If the movement is not sufficient to clear the friendly unit, the Insubstantial unit will stop 1" before the unit.
Any friendly unit that the Spectral Cavalry move through either suffer D6 wounds as per crumbling if they are undead, or if alive must take a panic check.
This ability is lost if a character joins the unit.

Thoughts?
Point costs still looks fine to me. I'd like to change the cmd model point costs. (Pegasus Knights are comparable (slightly cheaper) and they pay 20/10/20 for Std/Mus/Chp) I propose that the Spectral Knights should pay 24/12/24 for Std/Mus/Chp.

That wording seem fine to me.

I'd also like to make an amendment to this. It seems wrong to have them be that effective against characters. So, this change should help.

Deadly Touch
Attacks do not allow armour saves and count as magical.
Magical attacks. Any wounds caused by Spectral Calvary ignore armour saves, unless the wounded model possesses some form of magical armour, in which case they would be allowed their armour save as per the normal rules.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
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Messages
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#9
RE: LoN 8th Edition review - Rare

Yep I think that amended wording is fine and makes sense.

So onto the next - The Black Shards

Most of it is fine, just a few tweaks.

Nexus
......During the magic phase the Shard may cast the Great Awakening from the Lore of Nagash was a bound spell. The spell is automatically cast, no power dice are required, however dispel attempts can be made as normal. The power level is determined by rolling 2D6.

Levitation
The shard is slowly lifted off the ground by swirling dark magic and glides forward, its guardians following in its wake
Bound Spell. Power 5. The spell is automatically cast, no power dice are required, however dispel attempts can be made as normal. For dispelling purposes it is assumed the spell was cast on a roll of 5. The whole unit may march move at the Guardians movement rate as per the BRB. This movement does not allow the unit to charge.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
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#10
RE: LoN 8th Edition review - Rare

Slight reword for clarity

Catastrophic Power
Filled with such immense energy, destroying the Shard can prove to be just as deadly as letting it continue it's nefarious work
If the Shard is destroyed roll D6 +4. Aall units within this range d6+4 inches suffer a S5 hit on every model. This hit also counts as having the Killing Blow special rule.

Don't see anything else on that one that needs changing.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
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Messages
27,916
#11
RE: LoN 8th Edition review - Rare

I'm ok with that, wow we're going through these pretty fast xD

Last one:

Bone Throwers. Other than remove the following line:

Upto two Bone Throwers may be taken as a Rare choice

I think they are fine as they are?
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
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#12
RE: LoN 8th Edition review - Rare

Yep, the 2 for 1 line can be removed.

Another issue is, the war machine rules have made the crew basically into "wound" markers (pg 108, BRB).

So, the removal of the crew = removal of the war machine.

As such the "raising" of models on a crewless war machine should never be possible. That line can be removed as well.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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Messages
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#13
RE: LoN 8th Edition review - Rare

Fair enough - I agree with that as well. So then with all the amendments, the Rare choices end up as:

Ancient Warrior - 230 pts
Monstrous Infantry

With Controller Alive
M 4 / WS 8 / BS 0 / S 5 / T 4 / W 8 / I 8 / A 5 (6) / LD 10

With Controller Dead
M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 5 / T 4 / W * / I 4 / A 2 (3) / LD 5

Equipment
Two Hand Weapons
Heavy Armour

Special Rules

Undead

Forgotten Lore
The warrior has knowledge of martial techniques forgotten may years ago.
At the start of each round of combat the Ancient Warrior may choose to re-roll either his to hit rolls or or to wound rolls.

Power Strike
May choose to swap all its attacks for 1 S10 hit, that causes D6 wounds, these benefit from the forgotten lore rule. May choose to forfeit half its number of attacks (rounded up) in order to gain the benefit of Heroic Killing Blow, these benefit from the Forgotten Lore rule. If the enemy is immune to the Killing Blow special rule, they suffer D6 wounds on a roll of 6 to wound instead.

Controller
For the warrior to work at its optimum it must have a controller. There *must* be at least magic user in an army with an ancient and one must be nominated to be the ancients controller. The controller cannot be the armies general.The controller and ancient do not have to stay near each other and operate as normal.
Whilst the both controller and ancient are alive the following applies:
The controller loses 1PD and 1DD in the relevant magic phases. 1 PD/DD is drained from the controlling players pool in the appropriate magic phase. This is done once the total number of dice is decided (after rolling, PD added from powers), but before any other actions take place (such as the Evocation of Death from the Black Coach).

Ancient has the following benefits

  • Uses the top profile
  • May march move as per the BRB
  • Regeneration
  • Always Strikes First
  • Immune to Killing Blow
  • Magic Resistance (2) (3) against enemy spells only
  • Power Strike as detailed below

If the Controller dies the Ancient loses all the above abilities, and uses the lower profile. In regards to the wounds, halve the remaining amount rounding *down*, this will mean if it has only one wound when the controller dies, the Ancient will die as well. The Ancient also suffers from Crumbling as if the general has died (NB - The general dying has no effect on the Ancient)
If the Ancient dies the controller regains the lost 1PD and 1DD and may use them as normal.If the Ancient Warrior is killed, then the dice are no longer drained as described above.


[hr]


Spectral Cavalry - 65pts each - Limit: 1 unit per 2000pts - -

Unit size: 4-10

Spectre - M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 1 / I 3 / A 2 / Ld 5
Champion M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 1 / I 3 / A 3 / Ld 5
Mount - M 8 / WS 2 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 3 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / Ld 2

Equipment:
Spears
Spirit Armour

Options:
-Any unit may upgrade one Specter to a Musician for +20pts +12pts.
-Any unit may upgrade one Specter to a Standard Bearer for +25pts +24pts.
-Any unit may upgrade one Specter to a Champion for +25pts +24pts.
-Any unit may give their Standard bearer a magic banner of up to a total of 90 pts.

Special Rules:
Terror
Undead

Insubstantial -
As per the VC rulebook with the following addition:
They may also charge or march through friendly units as long as they fully clear the friendly unit at the end of their movement, if they fail to clear it either counts as a failed charge if the unit was charging, either way if the remaining movement takes them into the unit they will stop when they touch the friendly unit.
Any friendly unit that the Spectral Cavalry move through either suffer D6 wounds as per crumbling if they are undead, or if alive must take a panic check.
This ability is lost if a character joins the unit.


As per the 7th Edition VC rulebook, with the following addition:
A unit with this rule may move or charge through friendly units as if there are clear terrain (though the unit still blocks line of sight as normal), providing the Insubstantial unit fully clears the friendly unit by the end of the move. If the movement is not sufficient to clear the friendly unit, the Insubstantial unit will stop 1" before the unit.
Any friendly unit that the Spectral Cavalry move through either suffer D6 wounds as per crumbling if they are undead, or if alive must take a panic check.
This ability is lost if a character joins the unit.


Spirit Armour
Grants the bearer 2+ armour save, and a 5+ ward save. The ward save does not work vs magical attacks. Movement is not affected by this armour.

Deadly Touch
Attacks do not allow armour saves and count as magical. Magical attacks. Any wounds caused by Spectral Calvary ignore armour saves, unless the wounded model possesses some form of magical armour, in which case they would be allowed their armour save as per the normal rules.

Spectral Wind
At the end of the combat phase, if the unit has won combat but not broken the enemy they may choose instead to leave combat by passing through the enemy unit. Roll 3D6 as if pursuing out the back of the enemy unit, providing the distance rolls clears the enemy unit place the Spectral Cavalry appropriately. If the roll is not enough to clear the enemy unit the spectral cavalry remains in position and the enemy will strike first next next combat phase unless their weapons or other special rule prohibits them from doing so (i.e GW), the enemy does not gain any other bonus's i.e strength bonuses.
This ability cannot be used if the Spectral Cavalry has been charged in the flank or rear.
This ability is lost if a character joins the unit.

[hr]

The Black Shards 275pts 1 per 2000pts -

Fashioned out of solid obsidian, these powerful objects are miniature versions of the Black Pyramid that still stands in Nehekhara. Knowing how reliant his armies were on magic Nagash created these to sustain his forces no matter how fitfully the winds of magic blow

Shard...M * / WS - / BS - / S - / T 7 / W 5 / I - / A - / Ld –
Guardian M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / Ld 7
*See Inanimate special rule

Equipment
The Guardians are equipped with Full Plate Armour, Shields and Handweapons

Special Rules
Undead (Guardians only)
Wight Blades (Guardians only)

Inanimate Object
The Shard is only an enchanted object and thus is completely Unbreakable, and cannot be affected by any objects / spells / rules that affect psychology etc. The Shard can only be moved in battle using the below Levitation spell. Any enemies in BtB contact with the shard automatically hit it, no roll to hit is required.
It has 5 guardians who rank up in front of the shard. They will move to protect the shard at all times, therefore unless the Guardians are already engaged in combat any charges are counted as charging to the front of the unit. Move the Guardians to the relevant unit side.
The Guardians can never leave the Shard, and the combined unit can never charge, not even if affected by spells that would force them to. The power of the Shard protects them against such influences.
The Shard also adds +2 CR.

Nexus
The Shard draws necromantic magic into itself, fuelling the undead nearby and making them nigh on unstoppable. Those alive who follow the rule of Nagash are also reminded of his power, urging them onto to greater feats of bloodshed
The Guardians have a 4+ ward save and the ASF rule.

Any Nagashi with 12" of the Shard at the start of the Legion's turn automatically rally if fleeing. Otherwise they are entirely immune to fear whilst within 12".

During the magic phase the Shard may cast the Great Awakening from the Lore of Nagash was a bound spell. The spell is automatically cast, no power dice are required, however dispel attempts can be made as normal. The power level is determined by rolling 2D6.

Magical Source
The additional power provided by the Shard empowers Liches and Priests if Nagash, giving them the strength to overpower their enemy
Whilst the Shard is still in play, any enemy dispelling attempts are at -1.

Levitation
The shard is slowly lifted off the ground by swirling dark magic and glides forward, its guardians following in its wake
Bound Spell. Power 5. The spell is automatically cast, no power dice are required, however dispel attempts can be made as normal. For dispelling purposes it is assumed the spell was cast on a roll of 5. The whole unit may march move at the Guardians movement rate as per the BRB. This movement does not allow the unit to charge.

Catastrophic Power
Filled with such immense energy, destroying the Shard can prove to be just as deadly as letting it continue it's nefarious work
If the Shard is destroyed roll D6 +4.[/s] All units within this range[s/] D6+4 inches suffer S5 hit on every model. This hit also counts as having the Killing Blow special rule.

[hr]

Bone Thrower - 50pts

Thrower ..........M - / WS - / BS - / S - / T 7 / W 3 / I - / A - / Ld -
Siege Cadaver M 4 / WS 2 / BS 2 / S 3 / T 3 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / Ld 5

Unit Size: 1
Crew: 2 Siege Cadavers (Note: The crew can never be increased past its starting size, however it they can be raised back, providing at least one crew member remains. even if both are killed, as long as the Bone Thrower has not been destroyed.)
Weapons and Armour: The Skeleton crew have light armour and hand weapons
Range: 48"
Strength: 5
Damage: D3

Special Rules:
Undead
Bolt Thrower (pierces ranks as per the BRB)
Enscorcelled
Made from the thigh bones of giants, the bolts are fused with magic by the Disciples of Nagash, designed to make sure they do not miss their target
Shots from the Bone Thrower do not suffer from negative range modifiers apply to the shots. All other positive and negative modifiers apply as normal.

Upgrades:
Cursed Ammunition - 25pts
Wrought with runes of death, these deadly bones cause the flesh to rot with the slightest scratch
The player may re-roll any wound caused by the Bone Thrower. They still benefit from the Enscorcelled special rule. The upgraded shots also count as magical.

Upto two Bone Throwers may be taken as a Special choice


Comments?
 

The Dread King

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#14
RE: LoN 8th Edition review - Rare

I think that you could take a different line on the Ancient Warrior if you wanted to. They could be monstrous infantry that you could have in units (e.g. you could have 6 of them or 12) though I think that the minimum unit size could still be one. Their controllers could be like master moulders are to rat ogres; you could have particularly weak necromancers as their controllers with the ratio of one controller:one warrior. The necros could deviously hide in units and people would be trying to snipe them off; you could make some great games with them. The weak necros could be around 30pts, I don't know how you'd make them weak, maybe only level 1, 1 wound and max. 20pts(or 0pts) of magic items. But the ancient warriors are good enough already, just a suggestion.

You could also make zombie bone throwers that operate themselves; may be getting a bit too close to chaos but still cool. The zombie bone throwers could be made of animated flesh that operated itself and didn't misfire, however its shots were weak and it zombie toughness.

I think that the shards should have a second spell (or magic shooting attack); able to zap enemy troops with dark magic, causing D6/2D6 S4 hits (or something like that).
Spectral cavalry look fantastic. If they were ethereal (or there were ethereal troops like them) that would be awesome. If revenants could join them on ethereal steeds, that would be epic(but a bit weird). This may sound a bit rubbish, but if you look at the hexwraiths entry you'll (hopefully) see what I mean in this paragraph.
This may sound criticizing/annoying/stupid but this post is only a suggestion. I'm not saying that anything in this post should happen. It's just speculation.

Here is my idea for weak necro controllers (of Ancient Warriors):

Weak Necromancer-35pts
These servants of Nagash are no longer necrophytes but still cannot truly master the dark arts. However, they specialise in controlling specific undead and are a pivotal role in Nagash's armies.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld Troop Type
4 2 0 3 3 1 2 1 7 Infantry;Character

Magic:Weak Necromancers are level 1 wizards that choose spells from the Lore of Nagash.

Special Rules: Undead; Ancient Warrior Controller.

Options:
Each controller may choose up to 20pts of magic items from the common and/or Nagash's magic item lists.
Ancient Warrior Controller: Weak Necromancers can't be army generals. They follow the rules for being the controllers of ancient warriors. For each Ancient Warrior bought, a Weak Necromancer must be bought too. Once a Weak Necromancer is dead, he/she cannot be ressurected. If you have multiple Ancient Warriors, you must declare (at the start of the battle) which Weak Necromancer controls which Ancient Warrior. Weak Necromancers musr be within 60" of the Ancient Warrior they control; otherwise the Ancient Warrior they control uses the 'with controller dead' profile and rules until the controlling Weak Necromancer comes back into 60" of the Ancient Warrior he/she controls.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#15
RE: LoN 8th Edition review - Rare

Firstly, just a tip but could you put some spacing between paragraphs when typing. Large blocks of text can merge together and make for awkward reading. Cheers :thumbsup:

In regards to the Ancient Warrior, I am sorry but I don't like the idea. To be fair I am biased, I created the original rules for the Ancient Warrior and I still like the concept and fluff designed at that time.
 

The Dread King

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#16
RE: LoN 8th Edition review - Rare

That's fine; the current ancient warrior is great but can one controller control multiple ancient warriors? Because,if not, then Legion of Nagash armies will have very few ancient warriors in games of 2000pts or under.
 

Uziel

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#17
RE: LoN 8th Edition review - Rare

I just want to say that it is great to see that someone is doing something to do Nagash a bit of "justice", and that I've read a through the army list and so on. I do have some questions and comments, but many of the threads where it would be natural to ask these questions or add these comments, are closed/ended.

For now though, I'll just comment on what is in this thread.

-First off, I have to ask since I haven't found any mention of this before (and this relates to the Rare section as well as the rest); is "most" of the project based around being played with proxy models, or have you found models (maybe from other manufacturers) that you base the unit entries from etc?
Take the Ancient Warrior as an example, while he might be a lot of fun to play with and so on, it becomes somewhat uninspiring if there is not a model that fit (or nearly fits at least) his description.
I might have missed something here, and I realize this, but in general, I think people would be a lot more interested if it didn't require that they had to use to many proxy models that didn't really fit the bill, and ideally if they can use some of what they already have for their Vc/Tomb Kings armies it becomes a bit more of an "proper" army on the tabletop.

-On the Ancient Warrior, I noticed that you changed him to Monstrous Infantry, which from a game balance perspective is very good, it still beggs the question of what he was before he died? Ogres don't tend to be that skilled, and neither have they roamed the Old world (like they later do) since "ancient" times, or at least there are no historical mentions of this as far as I recall at the moment. By "ancient" I roughly mean before the time of Sigmar in this case..

-As for the Spectral Cavalry, it is now (since the introduction of the 8.ed VC book to be specific) a bit redundant, or at the very least if feels a bit out of place in the sense that if you read the description of the Hexwraiths you get the sense that these are very rare (not referring to their place in the actual army list). To me they just become a bit too similar, and I'd personally change them to Hexwraiths, and then maybe add a LoN Upgrade only. Then you have the models in place, you already have balanced rules for them (at least as far as something like that is easy to balance in the first place) and you also sort of have s strong tie between the Hexwraiths and "Nagash" in the first place as they sre described as first called forth by the necrarch's etc, whom I imagine have possessing more Necromantic Lore hailing from Nagash than jusst about anyone else.

Another suggestion could be (and I don't know yet since I haven't started assembling my Mortis engine) too keep a separate spirit cavalry idea, but to make it more of a "swarm", although on a larger base. I Imagine that perhaps the Spirit Host Cav "carrying" the Mortis Engine could be used here. Just a thought though.

-As far as the Bone Thrower goes, think it is pretty good, and it also has official backing in the GW fluff, and it is easy to "proxy" it. I would consider changing the cursed ammunition though, as it can both be terribly effective at piercing ranks if it re-rolls to wound all those potential t to-wound rolls (hence the cost I imagine). I'd consider changing it s0 that Bone throwers had the Killing Blow rule on their shots, and then perhaps had the Heroic Killing blow with the upgrade. Assuming the D3 wounds was removed (or perhaps even leaving an armour save), the cost could be significantly reduced, allowing for more of a "battery" of them to be fielded as well.
Not a big thing, and it is probably something that comes down to personal preference more than anything.

-As far as the Black Shard goes, I must admit that I have a bit of an issue with it from a fluff perspective (but I must admit that I considered just about the very same thing (Obsidian Obelisk thingy) for my own Legions of Nagashizzar project. What I don't like with this solution is simply the fact that the Black Pyramid (Nagash's early power storage) was immense in size, probably the equal of many thousands (if not tens of thousands) of "Black shards", depending on the Black Shard's size. I just can't see anything that you are able to place on the table as a unit, and being able to float it around as well, being able to contribute that much magically. Even the levitating it with dark magic is a little far fetched, as dark magic is quite unstable and it is not really something that lends it well to levitating stuff etc, at least not as far as the majority of official fluff goes.
Again, this is my opinion, and I realize that many have put in a lot of work here and may certainly feel otherwise, but I think perhaps the LoN might be better served with something like a small circle of necromancers (with a sacrificial altar) whom used Nagash's spell, the Incantation of Reaping (ref: the Nagash triology) to sacrifice slaves (and I understand that you already have the slaver part included) to grant the true Wizards in the army nearby some souls to feed on for their power.

I hope I don't make myself too unpopular by suggesting some alterations and asking some questions here, as no offence to those that have contributed are intended. I know designing an army from the ground up is a lot of work, but in my opinion it is better to have people questioning you than just patting you on the back the whole way, as one can easily loose some perspective once one immerse onseelf in the lore and so forth.
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#18
RE: LoN 8th Edition review - Rare

OK, so this is one thread that will stay open.

Important Note: To those just joining (i.e since the 8th Edition VC book), please note the following guidelines:

Many of the ideas etc have previously gone through stringent discussions and voting processes. With this in mind, changes (especially to fluff) will not just be done. If there is a valid reason and after discussion it is agreed on, then changes can go through.
Basically, whilst any suggestions and ideas will not be ignored, nor will previous ideas and hard work be overruled without valid reason. If you put in a lot of time and effort, only to have someone turn up later and change it all, I imagine it would upset you.

I am not saying this so people will not post, it is just better to be clear about how this process will work.

Finally, for those who did not know, the Legion of Nagash Project is currently managed by myself.

[hr]

Now to reply to comments:

That's fine; the current ancient warrior is great but can one controller control multiple ancient warriors? Because,if not, then Legion of Nagash armies will have very few ancient warriors in games of 2000pts or under.
That's the general idea. Fully powered up the Ancient Warrior has 6 ASF (most of the time re-rolling to hit) Killing Blow attacks, and is incredibly hard to kill. His rules need updating for the 8th, but he is meant to be one of the Legion's uber units (with a twist), hence he does need some limitations.

Uziel:

Model proxy: No we have not looked at any models for the Legion of Nagash. If we did in some cases what we designed for the Legion would be limited. There are scores of models out there, I can think of a few off the top of my head. Even getting a normal knight model that is scaled to 34mm (the one MS bought springs to mind) would work. Personally I think that this should not be a factor in deciding whether any unit is feasible.

Yes the model has been upgraded to Monstrous Infantry. It is meant to be more of a Golem, not an actual resurrection of a specific warrior. It is infused with a multitude of warriors souls, giving his the fighting knowledge of scores of men. This unusual method is the reason behind the need for a controller, and also its high stats when the controller is alive.

Spectral Cav - Firstly to GW: THIEVES!! WE THOUGHT OF IT FIRST!! xD That said I am in agreement here. With the Hexwraiths in the new VC book, and I am not sure whether we even still want them in the LoN. The idea of the LoN was to be another relatively unique army list, not a copy. The idea of any upgrade doesn't work for me either.....I think perhaps we should look at designing a new cav unit. Thoughts?

Bone Thrower - I like the suggested change, I can imagine some monsters being very scared :devil2: Again, other's thoughts on this suggested change?

Black Shard - This I have to disagree with. I can well imagine that someone with Nagash's intellect would notice that having just wizards as the power source of his army was not a good thing. If it was me, personally I would try and create something that could store and supply power (like a battery xD), and considering his previous experience, would try and a miniature version of the Black Pyramid. The shards in question are not meant to be any bigger than say a war machine, and effectively release stored necromantic energy,

Personally I like the concept, however I think that with the new VC rules, again the rules for this unit need looking, especially in regards to the generals death and crumbling.
 

The Dread King

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#19
DoN I can see your point about the ancient warrior.
You could use/convet a monolith to represent a black shard and use some tomb guard to be its guards.
I think that the bone thrower should be at least strength 2; sure its runes make it have killing blow, but a bone landing on your head is still going to hurt whether or not it can kill a monster.
New cavalry unit could be 'souleaters'- I made something like that for my own LoN campaign. They are monstrous cavalry; the beasts are evil spirits of monsters and foul creatures that Nagash brought into this world; the riders are souleaters, the men and beasts that populated cripple peak before the giant piece of warpstone hit it; they survived, were warped and became undead. They are Nagsh's pets. The evil spirits are ethereal, which makes the monstrous cav ethereal (but the riders don't get magical attack as they are not ethereal; they are simply on a cradle of shadows. The souleaters are a bit like orcs/orc big 'uns and they get +1 to wound as they are trying to eat their enemies' souls and are quite skilled at doing so. When they caused an unsaved wound in combat, they can regain a wound that they lost earlier in the battle because the wound-part of or all of a soul-has been eaten by the souleater/their mount and so it heals the evil rider and monster. The evil spirits would be around the size of Tomb King cobras and I imagine the souleaters to be blue bloodletters with black armour.
The souleaters form a natural bond with the evil spirits as they are souls made manifest; a sick sort of friendship is made between the rider and the monster because of their shared monstrosity. Souleaters would probably be a rare choice.
Is this a good idea? It brings monstrous cavalry into the legion and, at the same time, gives the legion a really powerful, ethereal hammer.
 

Chaos_Born

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#20
I think that the ancient warrior, black shard and bone thrower are perfectly fine with the specified updates to the rules above-no changes necessary

As for suggestions for the spectral cavalry, I don't think they need differentiating from hexwraiths anymore than they are; hexwraiths are light cavalry harassers and these guys are full blown heavy cav. Although a bit of clarification/rewording of the Spectral Wind rule would probably be needed. Maybe similar to'they may elect to overrun, regardless of whether or not the enemy has broken/been wiped out' or something to that effect. Obviously that wouldn't be the whole rule and there would need to be more clarification but I think that could make the rule a little more brief.
 

Uziel

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#21
DoN:

-I thought the ancient warrior was flesh and bone so to speak, so my mistake. If it is a golem with lots of bound spirits to it, then yes, a model won't be an issue either.
Btw, I'd perhaps rethink how many attacks with Heroic Killing Blow that it can make from a balance perspective,. Even the Necrosphinx only get one if I'm not mistaking (and it's not is that thing doesn't come with some seriously intimidating blades). hehe It just seems like GW is being very careful with handing out this ability, at least so far. In my opinion, normal Killing Blow would be better, and makes a bit more sense as well, as most "warriors spirits won't have great knowledge of how ill things like Large monsters etc; since 95% of hem would have died in their first attempt).

-As far as the suggestion of a new Cavalry option geos, I think the Dread King is onto somehing interesting here. First off, there are not many Monstrous Cavalry units in the game (Juggernauts, and the mournfang comes to mind), and I think that one has to be very careful when introducing Ethereal units into the game, as they very quickly go from being somewhat of a gamble (but still unbeatable vs. lots of stuff) to just being really too damn awesome.
The issue I had problems with the Monstrous Cavalry idea when I considered it for my own LoN project, was first the model issue (I did consider basing it on the chaos lord mounted on the daemonic horse, the one with the big hammer), but it was hard to justify how this could have turned into something like an undead unit to me. Killing a bunch of chaos champions is no small feat (an can cost you more than you gain), and how you'd resurrect a demonic steed was also a bit speculative.. Also, a unit of those models would be rather expensive for a home made army..
I still think the idea is more viable than another Etheral Cav unit though (since GW nicked the idea in the first place).

-As far as the Bone Throwers go, I think something like the roman ballista would be cool, a weaker bolt thrower, 2 skeleton crew, something Like S5, Armour Piercing, Killing Blow, No range modifier, Heroic Killing Blow Upgrade (expensive), Dam 1. This could make it cheaper, and with a unit size of 1-3 (special choice), we could compensate with more of a volley of fire (compensate for a low bs that is). It would also help out with the "horde" feeling that I personally think any army of nagash would have (at least any made for qunquering things proper).

-As far as the Shard goes, it just comes down to one's opinion and how one interprets the understanding of magic in the warhammer world. I do get the "battery" idea, I just think there was a big reason that Nagash had to make the Dark Pyrmaid so epic in scale, and that was not just to let it draw huge amounts of energy in the first place (as Nehekhara is far from the fallen chaos gates), but it was simply a requirement for it to be effective in gathering energy in the first place. This is the "logic" that strains my good will for this idea, not any of the rules for it and so on. But, since magic is not exactly measurable etc, this comes down more than anything to ones own interpretation of how magic works and so on.
Personally I'd prefer a Necromancer summoning Circle using the Incantation of Reaping on slaves, or maybe involving Warpstone somehow, but this comes from how I personally biew the magic issue more than anything.
 

Chaos_Born

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#22
C'mon, the black shard is cool. Also it went through a selection process of many people who decided that it worked fluff wise. That's enough for me to accept it as plausable
 

Uziel

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#23
Chaos_Born said:
C'mon, the black shard is cool. Also it went through a selection process of many people who decided that it worked fluff wise. That's enough for me to accept it as plausable
Just so I'm perfectly clear, I think it is cool as well (gives me that necron feel), and I'm not complaining about its rules, point cost etc.
What I am not sold on, is the power gathering/storing issue, as far as the size of it goes (remember that the Black Pyramid gathered power for hundreds of years, and was still drained by nagash when casting his greater rituals etc), and I think the size of the black pyrmaid itself was also a prerequisite for it to work properly in the first place, being so far from the polar gates.
The second issue I have with it is that it can levitate, and that is because this is not something which necromancers are typically any good at (or even have the faintest idea of how to accomplish with necromancy). Just moving it to a battlefield where it would be needed would probably drain it dozens, if not hundreds of times if it was even doable, and then it would have to recharge for a looong time between each time it was moved thinking months if not years here).
If it was floating on something more self sustainable power-wise, like a gigantic spirit host (thinking mortis engine/coven throne here), then it would bee another matter though.

Just stating my opinion here, and thats not something that people having voted on previously has much of an impact on to be honest. No offence to anyone, but my view is not really "vote-changeable" as it were. :)
It's not like I have any power to overrule this decision in any case, but since this thread is open for suggestions and so forth, I will speak my mind. If people agree or disagree, that is entirely up to them.
If nothing is really open to being influenced by the opinions of people who didn't originally have a vote on the subject the first time around, then this thread might as well be open only for those that originally voted after all...
 

The Dread King

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#24
I can give a more detailed idea of the soulreapers if you want-after all, I have created a version of them for my own campaign.
I think that the shard doesn't actually levitate through magic alone, but that it uses vastly flexible and moving pillars of dark magic to push itself upwards and fowards.
I think that the 'necromancer sacrifice' is a brilliant idea for a unit, maybe that should be one of the new 8th edition units.
1-3 bolt throwers as a single special choice? 1-2 is reasonable, but with 1-3 you could be seeing up to 18 of these bolt throwers in a grand army... that's a lot...but I do think that it gives the horde feel of the legion of Nagash.
You could have a new monstrous infantry unit with size:3+. It would consist of lesser versions of ancient warriors, maybe? Only a suggestion here.
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#25
Ok, in response to some of the points:

Opinions: Everyone's is welcome. There is no hard rule saying nothing will be changed, however there has to be reasonable justification for it.

Ancient Warrior I will redo the rules for this tomorrow and post for everyone's opinion.

Replacement Cav Unit - I think we should stay away from an ethereal unit. It just smacks too much of stealing from VC, I would prefer to go unique, especially for a Rare unit. Dread King - if you have a concept please post it up and we can see what it looks like. If anyone else can think of a different idea that would be good as well. Monstrous cavalry sounds good gameplay wise, but as mentioned, where is the fluff justification for it?

Bone Thrower - I am liking the idea of lower multiple strength shots, something a tad different. Perhaps it could be something like as standard the bones have runes that cause them to shatter in the air, raining down D3+1 S4 / S5 shots? The upgrade could then be a massive bone :)perv:), that is a one shot with the HKB rule?
 
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