Looking For Advice on Where to Go Next

[ElectricPaladin]

I have only recently begun my descent into darkness, having started Warhammer Fantasy with Lizardmen. While my lizards may well remain my first choice, I am really excited to begin exploring Vampire Counts. There's a lot of tasty stuff in this army book, and while most Lizardmen choices seem pretty "stock" - basic durable troops, basic annoying skirmishers, etc - the Vampire Counts books seem chock full of nasty special rules, from hexenwraiths riding through enemy units to screaming banshees.

Anyway, here's my question: what should I buy next?

Here's what I've got at the moment:

• Vamp lord on dragon
• Vamp lord/hero on foot
• Necromancer lord/hero on foot
• Necromancette lord/hero on horseback
• Ghoul king lord on foot
• Wight king hero on foot
• Crypt wraith hero on foot
• 20 Zombies
• 20 Skeletons

I've got about $70 more dollars to spend on Vampires on the moment. In your opinion, what do I want to get next?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Fodderboy]

You need more core - I'd suggest zombies or ghouls.

How many points are you looking at playing?

 

[Bullhax]

Hello and welcome to CN! I have a gut feeling you will like it here!

Well you need stuff from core, special and rare so I'd start there. The following is also how I would do it myself if I was to start anew.

1. Decide what kind of army I'd want to play, do I want a cavalry type army, a MI type, a basic infantry army or a little of everything?

2. Are there any centerpieces / must includes in your army? Which could be a Zombie Dragon, a coven throne dual Mortis Engines's, dual Terrorgheists's, a special character or other such things. If there is I'd either post up a list or ask us (the forum members and myself) for such a list, the point total your aiming at and if the list should be fluffy, killy or a bit of both.

3. This is one of my most important advices, pick the core choice you like best, model wise that is, our core does fill out different roles in different lists but lets face it, it is seldom our core that wins us the game, never have I thought "dang if I had skeletons instead of zombies in this situation I would have totally won the game". Our core is cheap so you will paint a lot of models if you dislike painting zombies, go with skeletons instead. If you think the ghouls are the worst model GW ever made, don't force yourself to paint 40 of them because someone told you they were autoinclude.

This comes from a person who is mainly a painter and a slow one at that. It would kill me to paint up stuff that I didn't enjoy painting. All in all it comes down to what you want to do, I will gladly write you up a list and I know a lot of other (and more capable people) would too, get us pointers as to what you want though

Sorry for the wall of text

 

[Ben E. Violent]

Dogs and bats!

 

[ElectricPaladin]

Wow... you guys are on it. Immediate feedback, and lots of it. Thanks!

So it sounds like I need more core. I definitely like ghouls more than zombies - my skinks have taught me to love Poisoned Attacks - so I'll be picking up a box of those dudes. I also like cavalry - my Cold One Riders are among my favorite units in my Lizardmen army - so I'll get some of that. It's always so much fun to watch them go charging around the board, smashing through my enemy's lines. That said, I also like monstrous infantry, and both Crypt Horrors and Vargheists appeal.

In other words, I'm still torn on what "hammer" to get. Here are the options that I'm stuck between:

Crypt Horrors: Giant ghouls! Can be used as fillers to expand my ghoul units, which is nice. Big stompy ghouls - nothing to dislike here.

Vargheists: Flying monstrous infantry seems like a lot of fun, and a very different way to get that same "zooming across the board smashing things" feeling that I love so much from cavalry.

Black Knights: Kind of basic, but the models are nifty enough, and they could serve as an escort for my mounted Necromancette.

Hexenwraiths: Same kit. I love the models - even more than the Black Knights - but I'm unsure if the rules back them up. Also, they can't escort my Necromancette...

What do you think?

 

[Blutsauger]

Don't forget Blood Knights. If you liked Cold One cav, you'll love Blood Knights.

 

[ElectricPaladin]

Don't forget Blood Knights. If you liked Cold One cav, you'll love Blood Knights.

So expensive! I mean, someday... or maybe I'll just get something cheaper and convert it . They were originally Imperial knights, right? Those models are MUCH cheaper.

 

[Ravenheart]

Chaos knights are good conversion material for blood knights.

The way I've built every army I've ever done (and that's almost every race in both 40k and WFB) is pick the model/unit I like the most and go from there.

 

[Blutsauger]

Don't forget Blood Knights. If you liked Cold One cav, you'll love Blood Knights.

So expensive! I mean, someday... or maybe I'll just get something cheaper and convert it . They were originally Imperial knights, right? Those models are MUCH cheaper.

You can get them for a more reasonable price if you keep an eye on ebay

 

[ElectricPaladin]

A couple of updates for you, my devoted mentors:

• I have decided not to try to convert my dragon-riding vamp lord into a vamp lord on foot. Instead I will use him to make a nightmare-riding lord and buy a vamp lord on foot.
• My big purchases will be a box of ghouls and a box of black knights/hex-wraiths.
• Still trying to decide which to build the box as. Black knights are more flexible and my lord can ride with them, but the hex-wraith models are SO MUCH COOLER. I'm currently leaning towards the hex-wraiths, as I think I'm going to go zombie dragon for my big list, and that lord requires no escort. Fact is, though, I'm likely to eventually own some of both, so the point is slightly moot.

 

[Blutsauger]

The way the kit is constructed, you can easily pick up some extra steeds from eBay and make both for a few dollars more

 

[ElectricPaladin]

The way the kit is constructed, you can easily pick up some extra steeds from eBay and make both for a few dollars more

Seriously? Thank you! That's EXACTLY what I wanted to hear. Brilliant!

 

[Bullhax]

The way the kit is constructed, you can easily pick up some extra steeds from eBay and make both for a few dollars more

Seriously? Thank you! That's EXACTLY what I wanted to hear. Brilliant!

Hexwraiths are a lot more easy to fit into a list, 5 black knights doesn't really do anything, but 5-6 hexwraiths can wreak havoc in the enemy lines.

 

[Kingside_Bishop]

Hexwraiths are a lot more easy to fit into a list, 5 black knights doesn't really do anything, but 5-6 hexwraiths can wreak havoc in the enemy lines.

This is very true. Only build them as knights if you're willing to invest in at least one more box of them.

...but the hex-wraith models are SO MUCH COOLER

Sounds like a good enough reason to me!

 

[ElectricPaladin]

Hexwraiths are a lot more easy to fit into a list, 5 black knights doesn't really do anything, but 5-6 hexwraiths can wreak havoc in the enemy lines.

So, hexwraiths work well in small units, but black knights require ranks to be effective?

 

[Bullhax]

Hexwraiths are a lot more easy to fit into a list, 5 black knights doesn't really do anything, but 5-6 hexwraiths can wreak havoc in the enemy lines.

So, hexwraiths work well in small units, but black knights require ranks to be effective?

Mostly yes Hexwraiths can do damage on the move, are ethereal and move like the wind (fast). They deal with high armour which our other units lack somewhat they're flaming so regen is not a problem. They have a ton of uses where BK's have but a few.

The biggest problem with BK's are that a small unit would work best in the flank, but when we flank something that is fighting our core it crumbles away in one round of combat.. And when the BK's would survive EG the flank of something fighting CH's hexwraiths would almost always do just as good if not better..
There are ofcourse situations where this isn't true skaven have magical attacks left and right but not very high armour, in this instance BK's would fair better..

 

[ElectricPaladin]

I think I'm seeing that a Vampire Counts army list basically combines big busses/hordes with a multiple small units philosophy. You want to put your skeletons/ghouls/zombies into as big a block as possible to try to out-rank your opponent and mitigate the harm that's done to you through combat resolution. Your elites, however, you want to spread out in many small swiss army knife units that can easily get to wherever you need them. It's also interesting that it seems to me that our Lords and Heroes want to hang out with our big blocks of weak infantry so they can benefit from the leadership buff, not ride with some nasty elites as an escort.

Interesting...

 

[Gokamok]

I think I'm seeing that a Vampire Counts army list basically combines big busses/hordes with a multiple small units philosophy. You want to put your skeletons/ghouls/zombies into as big a block as possible to try to out-rank your opponent and mitigate the harm that's done to you through combat resolution. Your elites, however, you want to spread out in many small swiss army knife units that can easily get to wherever you need them. It's also interesting that it seems to me that our Lords and Heroes want to hang out with our big blocks of weak infantry so they can benefit from the leadership buff, not ride with some nasty elites as an escort.

Interesting...

As you seem to have figured out, there are a ton of different ways to make the army work. You're spot on about core infantry having to be in big units to work properly; you'll want to be able to survive a bit of crumbling, and then (hopefully) raise your casualties back. Zombies can potentially be taken in smaller units, either with the intention of raising them bigger, or simply used as roadblocks/decoys.

Be wary of using Vampire Heroes on foot, since they are rather squishy compared to their points cost. A Vampire Lord or SGK, however, tends to work well in any infantry unit, since they combine durability and insane killing power.

A side note on Crypt Horrors:
You should think of them as more of an anvil than a hammer. They win combats by grinding the opponent down, while being pretty durable themselves. I guess they work somewhat close to what you're used to getting from a block of Saurus.

 

[Demian]

Yes! and to add to the strategy, try to think of the "minimum model requirements" for each Unit to become very dangerous:

Skeletons: 30+
Zombies: 20 flat (speed bumps), 35+ tarpits
Dire Wolves: 5 are fantastic!
Ghouls: 35-40 in horde, any less won't cut it as good!

Grave Guard: 25-30+, horde makes them very dangerous!
Black Knights: 10-15 (including Characters here) is good enough. Fast, strong and survivable.
Vargheists: 3-6, three to hunt stuff down, six to have a flying glass hammer
Spirit Host: 1!! One us good enough! 2 if you want to tie a ranked unit for a few extra turns
Fell Bats: 2 bases! There is really no need for more, unless you raise them with Summon Creatures of the Night
Bat Swarm: 2 bases, same as above
Hexwraiths: 5 flat is nice enough. The more, the merrier here. 10 is the limit though.
Crypt Horrors: 6 is the magic number, and 8 is the wise limit here, unless you plan to make a Horde!!!

Blood Knights: 5 flat. You don't really need more. No Kastellan so you get a Look out Sir! with the character riding with them.
Cairn Wraiths: 3 + Banshee to get a Banshee... but really, it's better to purchase her from the Hero slot. 5 flat to have a 15 attack ethereal and terror causing unit which in turn can use 5 Chills Grasps to munch a Cav. Unit or Monster and destroy it. Chill's Grasp = Runefang.

That's how I field my army

 

[Bullhax]

Yes! and to add to the strategy, try to think of the "minimum model requirements" for each Unit to become very dangerous:

Skeletons: 30+
Zombies: 20 flat (speed bumps), 35+ tarpits
Dire Wolves: 5 are fantastic!
Ghouls: 35-40 in horde, any less won't cut it as good!

Grave Guard: 25-30+, horde makes them very dangerous!
Black Knights: 10-15 (including Characters here) is good enough. Fast, strong and survivable.
Vargheists: 3-6, three to hunt stuff down, six to have a flying glass hammer
Spirit Host: 1!! One us good enough! 2 if you want to tie a ranked unit for a few extra turns
Fell Bats: 2 bases! There is really no need for more, unless you raise them with Summon Creatures of the Night
Bat Swarm: 2 bases, same as above
Hexwraiths: 5 flat is nice enough. The more, the merrier here. 10 is the limit though.
Crypt Horrors: 6 is the magic number, and 8 is the wise limit here, unless you plan to make a Horde!!!

Blood Knights: 5 flat. You don't really need more. No Kastellan so you get a Look out Sir! with the character riding with them.
Cairn Wraiths: 3 + Banshee to get a Banshee... but really, it's better to purchase her from the Hero slot. 5 flat to have a 15 attack ethereal and terror causing unit which in turn can use 5 Chills Grasps to munch a Cav. Unit or Monster and destroy it. Chill's Grasp = Runefang.

That's how I field my army

A very good list although I generally use CH's in units of 8, 4 wide 2 deep.
Hexwraiths are really cool in a unit of 6, same goes with unescorted blood knights.
Unless you have a fetish for the cairn wraith models don't use them or at the very least only as characters, our other ethereal stuff does what they do better.

 

[ElectricPaladin]

So, another question:

I just bought ANOTHER eBay lot that brings my total core units up to the following:

* 20 Skeletons w/Spears + Full Command
* 19 Skeletons w/Hand Weapons + Full Command
* 53 Zombies
* 7 Dire Wolves w/Doom Wolf
* 2 Spirit Host bases

I assume that I should do some conversion so the skeletons can be fielded in a single mob of 39. Should I go spears or hand weapons? Is it better to have them fight in extra ranks, or get that 6++ parry save?

 

[Corien Sumatris]

Perry save all the way!! Skellies can't kill a darn thing, and more attacks isn't going to help that. but being able to tarpit even better is the way to go!!

 

[Demian]

Yep! plus, it doesn't matter if the skeletons are displayed with spears (I actually built them so, because they save some space when ranking them up), use them with Sword & Shield if they are unsupported by a Mortis Engine / Occam's Mindrazor

If you wanted to fill in the core, purchasing (I know its expensive) a Core Batallion will give you:

10 wolves
20 Skeletons
20 ghouls*

*This! You'll only ever need 40 Ghouls and at most, 40 Skeletons so it's not such a bad investment. Sometimes you'll want to field more than 2 Units of 5 Dire Wolves so, there is a bonus too.

AND! You get a Corpse Cart. Now I know it isn't that impresive, but if you want to buy a Black Coach, it only comes with 2 Cavalry Bases (no one knows why...) but no Chariot base. Thus, you have a spare for it!

 

[Corien Sumatris]

Well for bigginers I say go for the batallion. Corpse Carts are making a come back! They're huge vs high elves and dark elves!

 

[Blutsauger]

The difference between spears and hand weapons is really pretty much nil. Just take whatever ones you like more, for whatever reason. I think spears look cooler, so that's what I went with. I also think hand weapons look cool though, so I'm planning a big unit of them too