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Lore Attributes and Miscasts

Vipoid

Necromancer
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
875
#1
If you get IF when casting a spell, which happens first - the lore attribute or the miscast?

(This is for lore attributes like the LotV one, which activate when a spell from that lore is successfully cast.)
 

Vipoid

Necromancer
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
875
#3
Corien Sumatris said:
You always preform all spell affects including the Lore Attribute before the miscast happens.
Rightyo.

Any idea what page/faq that information is on?
 

Corien Sumatris

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Messages
1,536
#4
I don't have my book with me, I can let you know in .... about 4 hours unless someone beats me to it.
 

Mad 'At

Dumb enough to work
Staff member
True Blood
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
2,378
#5
The first two paragraphs under Miscast on page 34 BRB explains this. It is there said that the miscast is rolled for once the effect of the spell has been resolved. Now, lore attributes use slightly varying wording on when they occur, though CoU only says "When a spell is successfully cast ... instantly recovers a wound" which I would say means it is part of the spell effect. Lore of Shadows on the other hand specifies that you can switch places after the spell has been resolved, which would be at the same time as miscast, meaning it will follow the sequencing rules so the casting player decides what happens first.
 
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
629
#7
This is the reason i teleport my miscasting lore of shadow vampire into my necro bunker as i dont care if my zombies die, but my gravies remain intact.

So you teleport then miscast
 

Smogg

Grave Guard
Joined
Jan 27, 2012
Messages
260
#8
I don't think you can choose to swap places with smoke and mirrors after the miscast. according to smoke and mirrors the wizard can choose to immediately swap places after the spell is cast and resolved. So it has to be done before the miscast (which does not happen immediately)
 

Mad 'At

Dumb enough to work
Staff member
True Blood
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
2,378
#10
Smogg said:
I don't think you can choose to swap places with smoke and mirrors after the miscast. according to smoke and mirrors the wizard can choose to immediately swap places after the spell is cast and resolved. So it has to be done before the miscast (which does not happen immediately)
Hmmm... There is certainly merit to that thought. Though I'm not sure you could put so much meaning into the word 'immediately'. I mean, it could just be put in there to prevent people from waiting unit after the next spell or even longer until they switch places (because that would still be after the spell has been resolved). But I'm probably over analysing this as this whole thought because in all likelihood non of this ever occurred to the writers.

However, the more I think about it the more I think you are right, since if you switch places after the Miscast you would not use the attribute immediately after the spell has been resolved. So RAW you are probably correct Smogg.

@geordieclubba: You could still do that, Smogg just pointed out that you could not do it the other way around (if you are in your zombie bunker with your VL and miscasts you have to resolve the miscast before teleporting, meaning some GG might die if you really want to teleport).
 

Fodderboy

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
2,243
#11
Mad said:
Smogg said:
I don't think you can choose to swap places with smoke and mirrors after the miscast. according to smoke and mirrors the wizard can choose to immediately swap places after the spell is cast and resolved. So it has to be done before the miscast (which does not happen immediately)
Hmmm... There is certainly merit to that thought. Though I'm not sure you could put so much meaning into the word 'immediately'. I mean, it could just be put in there to prevent people from waiting unit after the next spell or even longer until they switch places (because that would still be after the spell has been resolved). But I'm probably over analysing this as this whole thought because in all likelihood non of this ever occurred to the writers.
This is only valid if the miscast results are not considered part of the spell resolution.
 
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
Messages
708
#12
As far as i know its:

Spell IF resolve
lore attribute resolve
miscastroll.

Miscast always as last and the effect of it cannot be undone/altered afterwards by a lore attribute or a save of anykind. meaning that CoU is not gonna get ur wound back since u already used it before the miscastresults.

The teleport into zombies therefore is absolutely valid since the attribute is resolved before the miscast.
 

Aedin

Black Knight
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
381
#13
Would be kinda funny with invocation because if the IF caused a wound to you; you would then get to heal that wound. Which i think is not the raw or the intent.
 

Smogg

Grave Guard
Joined
Jan 27, 2012
Messages
260
#14
All this made me just think up some weird scenario.

Lets say my level 2 necromancer has 1 wound left. He is on foot having left his usual bunker (which is now busy with 5 flanking wolfriders). In front (ca 9" away) of the necromancer is a sizable unit of black orcs in position to charge him. In the hope to escape, he cast Van Hells dance makabre but he rolls IF ! Now, as I am a cruel and calculating general, I decide to order my Necromancer to march towards the black orcs rather then away, hoping to panic them with a spectacular miscast. So what actually happens?

1. Necromancer use VH to march 8" towards the black orcs, however, as i get within 1.5" of the black orcs, I am also within range of nearby night goblins who release a fanatic.
2. Now do I get to use CoU before I get hit by the fanatic, if I decide that my movement is done? As the fanatic only roll two hits, an extra wound could save his life.
3. Lets assume the CoU was not allowed before the necromancer is hit, and as result the necromancer is killed by the fanatic. Can the necromancer finalize the effect of his spell, moving the last 0.5" in some imaginary way? Could I then use CoU on something else nearby, even though the necromancer was dead?
4. Can the dead necromancer still detonate in a spectacular miscast roll even if he was already dead?
 
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
143
#15
Haha, nice scenario!
I would say CoU happens first, being described as 'when a spell is successfully cast, the wizard (..) instantly recovers a wound.' Then resolve the spell, and finally miscast result.
A killed wizard can't finish his move or have a miscast, but I don't have any reference to back this up. But it makes sense to me this way, even an undead wizard ;)
 
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
137
#16
In that situation it works like this:

1.Your Necro moves
2.Once he is in range of Fanatics they got moved
3.if he survive he can more up to 8' total
4.if he survive he can be healed by CoU
5.if he is dead you can heal someone else with CoU checking range from where he died
6.after all of this you make miscast table roll and see what happen checking range from where he stands at the end or where he died
 
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
Messages
708
#17
I agree with niltag.

The spell has already been miscast so even if he dies the CoU can still be used (not on the dead wizard obviously) and the miscast needs to be rolled for as well since the miscast has happened wether the necro dies or not.

Keep in mind that whatever damage from the miscast happens is physical and NOT magical.
 
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
137
#18
Skittelz1981 said:
Keep in mind that whatever damage from the miscast happens is physical and NOT magical.
I have to disagree, all dmg from miscast is magical, it was in GW FAQ about what are magical atack
 

Bullhax

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Sep 12, 2011
Messages
1,053
#19
Niltag said:
Skittelz1981 said:
Keep in mind that whatever damage from the miscast happens is physical and NOT magical.
I have to disagree, all dmg from miscast is magical, it was in GW FAQ about what are magical atack
Here's the FAQ :)

Q: What are ‘magical attacks’? (p68)
A: All attacks made by spells and magic items are considered to be magical attacks, as are all attacks that are specifically noted as being magical attacks. Shots fired from magical items are also considered to be magical attacks, unless their description specifically states otherwise. Hits inflicted by rolls on the Miscast table are treated as magical attacks.
 
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
Messages
708
#22
Hah, missed that faq and have never played against anyone stating otherwise... guess everybody played according to the book which doesnt specifically state it as being magical damage therefore it isnt.
Now that i know this is xhanging alot for my ethereal units
 
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