• Roll-up! Roll-up! Come one and all the fantastic Turning the World to Darkness painting competition. Welcome to any skill level, you can find out more here.
  • It's time once again to ferret out those murderous vampires in a new VAU - Vampires Amongst Us. A cross between Cluedo and a roleplay, sometimes gory and often hilarious! Find out more here.

Lore of Undeath - Ryze The Grave Call & Characters

Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Messages
103
#1
Very quick question

Can you use Ryze the Grave Call to raise Characters as they are still infantry?

If so, does that make Kandorak, the Harbringer a bit less useful?
 

bigbadbat

Harbinger of Dandelions
True Blood
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
1,244
#3
Alabaster427 sums it up.
There is a glaring loophole with regards to logic, I would say in friendly games, no.
However, some tourneys or gt's may rule that it is possible...when in rome!
 
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
7
#4
Depends if you want to play against that opponent again lol.

the interpretation of RAW depends on who is reading it, there is always a bias one way or the other.

the fact that there is another spell which specifically says character makes it plainly obvious that this spell cannot and was not intended to be used to summon characters, and people playing it as so are playing a unsportsmanlike game.
 
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
187
#5
See insidius, you are going into RAI in your post. The rule for Ryze says you can summon infantry up to 100 points, as written the only requirement is that you summon infantry. Many characters are infantry and characters, they have two designations, but they are infantry. So they meet the only constraint placed upon summoning by Ryze. Your personal belief, and interpretations of the rules say you can't but that is not what the words on the spell says. I agree with you completely I don't think it was meant to summon characters, but we aren't the writers so we don't honestly know their intent in writing those rules, we are just choosing the interpretation we find most suitable. Which is why a lot of people go with rules as written. It's a lot clunkier, but it isn't everyone putting their own spin on the rules based on how they think it should be handled.
 
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
7
#6
i think this is one example where the intent is very obvious, its very obvious as there is a entire spell devoted to summoning characters.

if people choose to get very technical with RAW then under the troop type description, characters are INFANTRY ( CHARACTER ) or ( SPECIAL CHARACTER ) so clearly they are not the infantry the spell is describing as infantry such as zombies and skeletons are simply typed as INFANTRY.
 

LordTobiothan

Crypt Horror
Joined
May 6, 2014
Messages
583
#7
Technically character isn't even a troop type. By RAW kandorak is entirely useless unless you assume character to be anything coming out of the hero or lord allowance.

There is a list of troop types somewhere in the book (don't have mine on hand) and character isn't included.
 
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
187
#8
Again you are making assumptions as to the intent of the writers, unless you can prove to me you were among the people writing the books and you know what GW intended because you were in the planning sessions you are only making assumptions. There is two seperate spells that summon chariots, so there is already a precedence for a type being duplicated, and as Lord Tobiothan pointed out, chaacter and special characters aren't troop types, so it doesn't alter the infantry designation. RAI you can state up and down that you can't summon characters with Ryze, but RAW there isn't anything to keep you from doing it. Most of your counter arguments have been RAI arguments, which doesn't work.
 
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
7
#9
Chariot is mentioned twice as of the points value limit you're allowed to summon upto, one of 200 for a cast a value of 24, and the other 150 for a casting value of 16.

my description counts as RAW. check under the troop type under the models description for that models troop type and i promise you every single one of the will not state infantry as its sole troop type.

If you read the spell it says infantry, not infantry special character.

that is RAW. If someone was to try argue that ryse allows them to summon characters in this way id refuse them not only that spell but the kandorak one also. As, as lord T states there is no character type unit.

If people need to resort to underhand tactics and bias ( certainly questionable ) interpretations of rules to win they're obviously not a very good general.

Any T.O's playing it so you're allowed to summon characters that way need to reconsider their ability to run a fair tournament.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
187
#10
You couldn't refuse both, you could refuse one or the other, either it is a troop type and only kandorak works, or its not and kandorak doesn't work but ryze does. You would resort to actively cheating because he was following what the rules stated and not what you think the interpretation should be. And honestly it doesn't make a huge difference, instead of a full unit they get a single model that can't start inside a unit. in all but the most tailored lists lore of undeath is still sub par to other lore choices.

There is no reason to attack T.O.'s that don't agree with you, your interpretation isn't the rules it is your opinion, and the rolling on ryze has little effect on how fair tournaments are. In my region there is no comp, and if tournaments make rulings they tend to follow RAW to avoid these kind of arguments over what the rules to our do not mean.

You have your RAI interpretation of the rules and that's fine, but your view isn't the only one, this topic has been discussed ad nauseum, and as stated above and linked to. The community wide consensus is that RAW it is legal, RAI it's not. There is nothing you can add at this point that hasn't been said. If you don't like raw don't attend the tournament using it that way but don't make claims about T.O's being unable to make a fair tournament because they don't use your interpretation of the rules. They put in a lot of effort and in some cases their own money to set up these tournaments, so show some respect for all the work they do and don't just bad mouth them for no reason.
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
1,315
#11
my description counts as RAW. check under the troop type under the models description for that models troop type and i promise you every single one of the will not state infantry as its sole troop type.

If you read the spell it says infantry, not infantry special character.
Kandorak doesn't say Infantry (Character) or Infantry (Special Character), it just says character. By your definition of RAW, Kandorak basic is useless and can't be used to summon anything, which is "obviously" wrong.
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
1,315
#12
Very quick question

Can you use Ryze the Grave Call to raise Characters as they are still infantry?

If so, does that make Kandorak, the Harbringer a bit less useful?
It should also be noted that Kandorak boosted (Monsters) also follows the RAW and RAI I gave for Monster Characters and such (i.e. Mortarchs)
 
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
187
#13
There is a very clear indication of what is and isn't a character. If it has the category character attached to it, it is a character. Character isn't a troop type it is a special category, IN ADDITION to a troop type. So kandirak allows anything with the special category character, which is defined by the brb,and is on the profile. Ryze allows anything with the troop type infantry, it never says it cant have other special categories. It's only requirement is it be infantry.

The same could be said for the dark riders as well.

All but one spell specifies only a troop type with no other restriction. The last spell only list a special classifier, that allows challenging, and leaving units etc. But add rules on top of troop type. It doesn't change the troop type in any way, it adds extra rules. You can dislike it as much as you want but RAW YOU CAN SUMMON CHARACTERS WITH MORE THAN JUST KANDORAK. The entirety of the internet is against you. People who are much better at parsing out these kind of rules and and going through the exact phraseology have gone over it and there is no argument you can make to keep them from summoning characters with RAW. If you agree to a RAI stance before the game starts that is fine. but since there are other threads linked to discussing this topic and other places online where it is covered in more depth, I will leave it at that. Besides it may all change when 9th does anyway, characters may become their own troop type
 

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
True Blood
Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
2,047
#14
As I've stated before, I am RAW until you hit obvious RAI. This is one of those cases, and I prefer the choice that is the least fracturing of the community. Common sense does weigh heavily in favor of Harbringer being the only way to summon characters. GW themselves would likely take that position and most of us know it.

Also, I was expecting to post that paragraph on pg. 96 about character being a special type of unit as I had in a previous thread. Ironically, I decided to explore the FAQ first and came across this:

Q: Does a character have a troop type? If yes, do all of the rules that apply to that troop type apply to the character? And will the character be affected by special attacks or spells that affect that troop type? (p96)
A: Yes to all questions.


So, technically, by GW's current FAQ, Ryze can summon infantry characters (and boosted Harbringer summons Monster characters). I think that its important to note that is the position the RAW posters above are coming from.

I do think (as most of us do) that RAI is obvious. Otherwise, there is no need for character summoning with Harbringer, if the unit types on the other spells can just do it any ways. Lore of Undeath needs a FAQ. In situations like this, I go with obvious RAI as that is the spirit of the game. Warhammer's own rulebook states it so.

Regardless, all of the RAW and RAI debates during a game are settled with "The Most Important Rule" on page 2.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,162
#15
It also needs an faq on whether uniqueness of magic items and special characters holds for summoned units. I would like to think the rai was obvious there too, but...
 
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
187
#16
The brb states you can only have a magic items can't be duplicated in your army. As soon as you summon something to the board it is in your army, not worth points but it is in your army. So I would say you couldn't duplicate magic items. Special characters only nagash or arkhan could pull off, bit definitely not two at the same time, resummoning a dead character gets iffy
 

LordTobiothan

Crypt Horror
Joined
May 6, 2014
Messages
583
#17
The brb states you can only have a magic items can't be duplicated in your army. As soon as you summon something to the board it is in your army, not worth points but it is in your army. So I would say you couldn't duplicate magic items. Special characters only nagash or arkhan could pull off, bit definitely not two at the same time, resummoning a dead character gets iffy
They are in fact worth points, hence why you summon them based on the points they are worth, they are only not worth victory points. So be sure not to go over your rare allowance or have more then 2-3 of the same unit in rare or special.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
176
#18
I love the fact the OP started "very quick question" :tongue:
People keep stating that you can't have duplicate magic items as the brb says and then conveniently forgets about rare and special unit restrictions etc as it suits them to forget them.
I think it should be agreed with who you are playing with however you do it, but Lord T's argument is RAW and picking and choosing what restrictions you use is at best RAI
 

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
True Blood
Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
2,047
#19
The difference between magic items and specials and rares, is that magic items state in their own rules that they are unique, one of a kind type of items. The special and rare limitations are based on point values of the game being played and only used when building your army list. So there is grounds for the two limitations to be treated as different.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
176
#20
I see where you are coming from, but it just feels a bit pick and choosey to me for RAW. I also think there is a big difference between points cost and victory points and just because something doesnt award victory points doesnt mean its points cost is zero. Dont get me wrong, I think the way it would be played best would be a mixture of restrictions. I think it would ruin the flow of the game to track points costs and rare/special slots etc. And I dont believe those restrictions were designed to be used for summoning but it doesnt say that they are not, but at the same time neither does it say the magic items/special characters should be restricted either. How do you define that one should be counted and the other not? Common sense. And I agree, there shouldnt be 2 krells on the battle field, but what is to stop you playing against another VC player also using Krell? There are no rules to stop that and no rules to stop both players taking ogre blade for example, so a fluff argument is a moot point really.
I admit I dont think I will be playing summoning spells using RAW, I think our group will decide the best way forward that everyone is happy with but I think the RAW is no restrictions at all.
 
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
187
#21
I think lords tobiathin is right on the special and rates. Reading the wording on magic items, special characters, and special and rare slots it states, you can have 1,1,3,2 in your army respectively. If you can summon extra special units you can duplicate magic items because they ask have the exact same description. I believe he is wrong on the points allowance. When creating your army list you can spend points up to 25% of your points on rare. Summoning isn't creating your army list, and if it did work that way lore of undeath would be pointless because I'd you had to adhere to that point cost why wouldn't you have to adhere to the total points of the game you are playing?. So nagash in a2000 point game would have to be fielded by himself so he had 1000 points of army list to summon from.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
176
#22
I dont have my book on me, but I agree, if the rule stipulates that the percentage restriction only count 'when creating' your army then they would have no affect on the summoning spells as you are no longer creating your army mid-game.
 

LordTobiothan

Crypt Horror
Joined
May 6, 2014
Messages
583
#23
I think lords tobiathin is right on the special and rates. Reading the wording on magic items, special characters, and special and rare slots it states, you can have 1,1,3,2 in your army respectively. If you can summon extra special units you can duplicate magic items because they ask have the exact same description. I believe he is wrong on the points allowance. When creating your army list you can spend points up to 25% of your points on rare. Summoning isn't creating your army list, and if it did work that way lore of undeath would be pointless because I'd you had to adhere to that point cost why wouldn't you have to adhere to the total points of the game you are playing?. So nagash in a2000 point game would have to be fielded by himself so he had 1000 points of army list to summon from.
Well summoned units are worth points, but you do not spend army points when summoning them so there is a fairly solid argument about being able to "break" the points allowance since the percentages are only how many points you are allowed to spend on units. This means there is still hope for summoning by RAW!
 

Count Vashra

Lord of Shadows
True Blood
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
1,570
#25
RAW: Read as written-literal interpretation
RAI: Read as intended-interpreting what is intended
 
Top