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Melkhar Von Varstein

Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
178
#1
Von Carstein list : 2000 pts. (I'v posted it in Tactics but someone more logical then me told me I was supposed to post that here. So here we are !)
Tactic: That's a special list I made to counter an artillery/dispell Dwarf army. Take a look, any comment is appreciated.

Von Carstein Count (323)
- Sword of Might (or GW or additional hand weapon ?)
- Cursed book
- Ring of the Night
- Nightmare + barding
(With the skeletons)

Von Carstein Thrall (134)
- Wolf Form
- Flayed Hauberk
- GW
(With the skeletons to start or with the wolves ? CAn he be with skeletons and afterward join the dire wolves pack ? )

Von Carstein Thrall (145)
- Walking Death
- Heavy armor + Lance+ barded nightmare (1+)
- Enchanted shield
(with War banner BK)

Wight Lord (126)
- Sword of king
- Heavy armor + shield of mousillon
- Barded nightmare
(Armor save 1+ and Killing blow on 5 and 6)
(with Banner of Barrows BK)

3 x Fell Bats (60)

3 x Fell Bats (60)

6 x Dire wolves (60)

9 x Black Knight (294)
- Barding
- Musician + standard
- Banner of Barrows

6 x Black Knight (224)
- Barding
- Standard + musician
- War banner

27 x skeletons (265)
- Full command
- Light armor

5 x ghoul (40)
5 x ghoul (40)
5 x ghoul (40)
5 x ghoul (40)
9 x ghoul (72)
9 x ghoul (72)

PD = 3
DD = 3
2000 pts

Not sure :
I thought of changing my zombies for skeletons to add additional protection for my count (with the skeleton champion) and I put him on a steed for the armour save and additional movement if needed. Is it good or too fluffy ?
What is best, zombies or skeletons against dwarves?
I also reduced the fell bats to three, for better manoeuvrability. But will it be enough to destroy or at least block the war machines or shall I bring 5 to be sure?
Can the thrall in wolf form join and charge with dire wolves in the same turn ?

Thank you all for your advices !

On a side note : I'm so eager to see the face of the Dwarf player when he will see that I don't have any magic. I'm sure he is all boasted in dispell scrolls and all because I'm habitually in the 9 PD.
Ahahah, I'm only going to TRY to cast one IoN per turn with 2 dices... And the other one will be lost for the dispell because the dwarf doesn't have any magic.
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
178
#2
Does anybody thinks this list is good, bad ?
I'm sur it is not perfect, don't hesitate to comment ! I'm playing tomorrow ! ;)
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
5,444
#3
For artillery, I'm not sure if you have enough fast troops. Dwarven artillery is tough, and come in units of 3 I believe. That being the case, I'd take at least 4 fell bats per group so you start with a +1 outnumber, and can autobreak them (or they'll flee automatically if they fail their fear leadership test). I would actually put them up to 5 which allows them to survive shooting more, and allows them to kill fleeing units that run into them.

I'd take more units of direwolves to take out artillery too. If he goes all artillery, he can field 6 pieces I believe. I'd take another 5 direwolves, although they're hit or miss for taking out dwarven artillery. They hit on 4+ and wound on 4+ so if you can get 4 in combat, you may kill one. The counter attack and hit on 3+ and wound on 4+ (or 3+ depending on if they have an engineer I believe). There's a good chance they'll kill a direwolf in the counter attack, and you kinda need to break them in the first turn. If he has his artillery packed together you may only get 3 direwolves in combat depending how it's set up... the direwolves are chancy though, I have limited success with mine.

The skeleton's vs zombies really depends on what kind of units he has. It won't make a difference to artillery, but when you get into combat, may save you a CR or two a turn.

I don't know what you plan to do with your thrall with the warbanner group. They will start at US of 14, and all that extra CR may autobreak a smaller unit, but if they take a casualty or two their effectiveness will go downhill fast. Dwarves have such good leadership they don't flee unless they autobreak. I would think about switching the warbanner for the banner of the barrows; putting the higher CR unit together will autobreak a lot more I think. I'd debate dropping the enchanted shield for a BSB and putting the warbanner on that, and getting the banner of doom (5+ ward save vs shooting) on the large black knight unit. When you come close to combat, you could even throw the BSB thrall in with the skeletons to provide a +3CR bonus. If you have enough skeletons, that combined with 3 ranks, and a standard will give you such a huge CR (+7) combined with a Vampire Count and the thralls attack it should send a block of dwarves running.

That said, their BSB is very important and I'd try to take him out ASAP. Are all your ghouls there to act as a screen? I don't find they're effective at all against dwarves, their armour saves them all the time, and sends the ghouls running. They are good as fodder and to take crossbow/thunderers. If you know your opponent takes a bunch of those types of units I'd get them, if not, I'd take less ghouls. If you know your opponent doesn't generally take magical artillery, throw in some spirit hosts for the two blocks of nine ghouls. If there's no magic artillery, they're super effective (especially with a BSB helping them stave off wounds until you can get the other units mopped up).

One last option is to drop the Sword of Might from your count in favour of a GW and get summon wolves although he's fairly naked once you get into combat. The best defence he has is the cursed book combined with a WS of 7, but a tooled up thane would take you down. Personally I don't find summon wolves that great as they usually don't have an outnumber bonus to make the units autoflee, but it can serve as a sacraficial piece giving you one less piece of artillery to worry about for a turn (if you're lucky and they survive against the dwarves), but its an option to consider.

Anyways, those are my thoughts, and I'm not the most experienced player out there.
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
178
#4
I also thought it would be best to have units of 5 fell bats, but I found it costed quite dearly... But now, he will have to think on which units to fire (fell bats, wolves, knights or even skeletons).
I habitually always use spirit hosts, but I know my opponent always use 2 canons and one organ gun which all have magical runs. So it would be a lost of point. I also know he doesn't have any magic, but he is going all in dispel (2 runesmiths, somes runes of dispell and lots of dispel scroll..) That's why I don't want to depend on magic.

As for the BSB, I think it's a good idea, but I won't go in the magic department because I want my thrall to have some combat powers (bloodline and magic). I also want to keep the two BK units because it's them, with combination of the skeletons, who are going to give a punch to all those stauntie dwarves.

I will reduce the ghouls, but I want to keep a lot of them to shield my squeletons, have baiting troops, and block the LOS. As well, if they can keep up, I will do some warmachine hunting with them.

So heres the modified list, tell me what you think !

Von Carstein Count (291)
- GW
- Cursed book
- Ring of the Night
(With the skeletons)

Von Carstein Thrall (134)
- Wolf Form
- Flayed Hauberk
- GW
(With the skeletons… Or wolves…)

Von Carstein Thrall (156)
- Walking Death
- Heavy armor+ barded nightmare (1+)
- BSB
(with War banner BK)

Wight Lord (126)
- Sword of king
- Heavy armor + shield of mousillon
- Barded nightmare
(Armor save 1+ and Killing blow on 5 and 6)
(with Banner of Barrows BK)

5 x Fell Bats (100)

5 x Fell Bats (100)

6 x Dire wolves (60)

9 x Black Knight (294)
- Barding
- Musician + standard
- Banner of Barrows

8 x Black Knight (249)
- Barding
- Standard + musician
- War banner

30 x skeletons (325)
- Full command
- Light armor

5 x ghoul (40)
5 x ghoul (40)
5 x ghoul (40)
5 x ghoul (40)


PD = 3
DD = 3
1995

PS. Grishnak, maybe you're not the most experienced, but you are very helpful with your advices. About the dwarf BSB, I will try to challenge him as fast as possible with one of my heroes (the wight lord would be perfect !)
PPS. I was also thinking of giving the Von Carstein ring to my general, but I think the cursed book will be more effective against the dwarfs rank n files. And the ring of the night gives some minimal protection... Will it be enough ?
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
5,444
#5
I'm still not sure of your overall tactics. The ghouls can screen from the organ gun and thunderers, but nothing else. Cannons will go right through them. He would probably want to use his Organ gun and Thunderers against Black Knights anyways as they're not ranked up much.

Using ghouls to 'bait' chargers? From a dwarf gunline? I'm not sure what you mean... they're great for taking on Thunderers in my opinion though, especially if they can flank them.

Von Carstein Thrall (185)
- Walking Death
- Heavy armor + Lance+ barded nightmare (1+)
- BSB
(with War banner BK)

This unit should cost 160, IF you could take the lance, which you cannot as it's the BSB.

Wight Lord (126)
(Armor save 1+ and Killing blow on 5 and 6)
Armour save is 2+.

By my account, your army currently costs 1970. (this is with a BSB without a lance). You can get an extra Black Knight.

Also, next time you're looking at a combat heavy list, did you consider using Blood Dragons...? Some of their bloodline powers are really good (hatred with a lance is pretty darn effective).

I would throw my thrall BSB in with the skeletons the turn before you charge. Hopefully this will autobreak the unit they hit, but be careful of immune to fear and such. Before committing your main unit, you may want to 'test the waters' by charging a weakened unit of ghouls at it and telling him to test for fear. If not immune to fear, you're all good :)


PS: If your black knights don't break longbeards/iron breakers on the charge, they'll be killed in no time. Dwarves are hardcore, don't overestimate your black knights. I hit a unit of iron breakers in the front and back with Black Knights. I had outnumber, Standard and rear to his standard, was charging with a thrall with GW, 9 black knight attacks with lances... and I still lost. All my guys were dead in 3 close combats (my thrall was a BD that challenged and got taken out by a first strike Dwarf hero; I had Flayed Hauberk as well...).
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
True Blood
Joined
Aug 19, 2007
Messages
3,461
#6
You probably wont be able to screen them at all against the organ gun. It is the most likely machine to be given the biggest kill zone(ie almost exclusively put on a hill). Be careful with that! Also a good choice to get 5 of the fell bats. Most dwarf war machines will be 4 dwarfs strong(thanks to the extra engineer) so 5 is a good number.

Dont know if you just made a typo but he cannot rune up his organ gun. Only cannons, BTs and Grudgethrowers can be given runes. Also good that you dont go with magic... should teach him not to tinker up on magic defence when facing a traditionally magic dependant army. Dont know how it´s overthere but making a list just beat a single opponent is frowned upon here.

Though I have to hope for dwarf victory... cause dwarf player I am heheh :)
Starting VC again soon enough but that is then and now is now.

Cheers and good luck.
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
178
#7
FFor the Wight LOrd. It's 2+ ? I thought that the heavy armor+nightmare with barding+normal shield was 2+... Isn't the shield of Mousillon a magic shields that adds ANOTHER +1 (And then he would have 1+ AS) or is the ability of the shield only to make lose 1 attack to an ennemy in base contact ? I think it was my mistake... By chance, it wouldn't have changed anything in the game.

It was a major victory for VC ! And I was just some points near the massacre. I'm going to tell you all the story tomorrow when I have the time to write a battle report. ;)

Thank you all fearsome kindreds !

PS. You are all right Grishnak. It was the 1st time I used the BSB and I didn't took the right points (I thought the BSB was 50 and it is 25 ! (The 50 points were for the magic banner... I need to be better in english (I'm a french speaker))
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
5,444
#8
You can't have a shield and a magic shield, just like you can't have armour and magic armour.

And I thought a dwarf engineer replaced a crewman...? Not added to it?
Vive la vampires.
 
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