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Nagash at 2500

Seneschal

Liche
True Blood
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
5,524
#1
Time to bring the pain to my local club

--- Nagash
90 necro with scroll
-- banshee
--wraith

190 40 TK skellies cmd
190 40 TK skellies cmd
70. 20 zombies mu sb
70. 5 horse archers
70. 5 horse archers
40. 5 wolves

314. 8 horrors ch
--- CoS
--- HT

2499

Pretty self explanatory. Going for the full lore if undeath then IoN and Spirit Leech on the big guy.

Thanks for reading
 

Seneschal

Liche
True Blood
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
5,524
#3
Hey Alabaster, thanks for replying

I'll be facing an Empire light council with Hurricanum pretty soon at my club so I may need the scroll when facing dual banishments. Time will tell.
 

Seneschal

Liche
True Blood
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
5,524
#5
I might not go first though. I'll switch out for now and see if I can risk it but the casters and hurricanum will definitely have an easy time hitting my large targets.
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
1,315
#7
Surely you can't give make items to characters you raise?
You can. anything summoned can have any items or upgrades it is allowed to have and you have points for. So if Nagash uses Harbinger, you could summon a level 3 Master Necro with Dispel Scroll or Master of The Dead as long as you don't already have a dispel scroll or Master of The Dead on your list. After that, it gets into murky waters and questions like these come up:

"Am I allowed to summon multiple copies of the same magic item(s) as long as they are not in my list?"
"If I summon a necromancer with a dispel scroll (or any other magic item) and he dies, can I then summon another necromancer with another dispel scroll (or any previous item), as I don't have one in my list and there is no longer one on the board?"
"If I summon a named character and he dies, can I then summon him again?"


RAW, the answer is yes to all of these. Are these exploits broken? Also yes. Unfortunately, RAI, there is no answer because the only thing we really have to go on is 8th edition, which implies NO, but only because of the rules restricting lists themselves. End Times was meant to turn 8th upside down and twist it all about and Undeath Lore basically ignores list building rules, so it's hard to argue against. Some TOs have allowed magic items to be summoned but no more than once. Others don't allow it all, and still some others allow it, but no more than one copy on the board at a time. Honestly, I don't know how the rules writers didn't pick up on this because it was literally the first thing that came to my mind.
 
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
133
#8
Surely based on the concept that there is only one of each magic item, if you use a dispel scroll you cannot create another because it is lost from existence. Although if a Necromancer died carrying it before it is used you could assume that a character could be raised holding that item as it was picked up off the the battlefield.

All seems a little Gamee, to me but have re-read the option for equipping raised characters and okay, yeah, magic items are covered under options. Duplicates should definitely be a no go.

This arguement reminds me of when we got that epic win and Terrorghiests were allowed to scream into combat. Within 10 minutes people then started arguing that they should also be allowed to scream out of combat haha
 
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
187
#9
The problem is you are now trying to assert your own interpretation as to how the rules should work. Which is where the debate arises, you either go RAW, which says yes you can to everything alabaster said, or you get into the endless debate of RAI, since if you are not the author of the book you can only make inferences as to what was intended, and without any other relevant example for summoning things, there really isn't much to go on, so it tends to be whatever view a particular person thinks should be right.
 

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
True Blood
Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
2,047
#10
The RAW on harbringer says to spend 65 points on a character from undead legions. It then directs you to pg 20, laying out unit selection and what units are usable. The rules for characters clearly state magic items are an option and the rules for magic items clearly state you can not have duplicate items in the same list. Since the spell doesn't say anything about ignoring these rules they would still be in place.

So, you summon the character, spend the points like you would normally and cannot duplicate any magic items. Right? Am I missing something?
 
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
119
#11
i think the tactic is having a scroll caddie, using the scroll, sacrificing the caddie and then raising a new caddie since there is no scroll in your army at that point in time. Works better with the forbidden rod though...

whether it is legal or not, i don't know
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
176
#12
Yeah and you cant throw fluff reasons into the duplicate magic items rule as some of the magic items are duplicated in practically every game played, as both armies could be using it. But I think where RAW comes in is if the magic item is not in your list to begin with then you can keep summoning characters with the items when there isnt a copy of it already in your army.
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
1,315
#13
Yeah and you cant throw fluff reasons into the duplicate magic items rule as some of the magic items are duplicated in practically every game played, as both armies could be using it. But I think where RAW comes in is if the magic item is not in your list to begin with then you can keep summoning characters with the items when there isnt a copy of it already in your army.
That's basically it. Nobody is arguing that you can summon a scroll caddie if there is already one in your list. But if there isn't one in your list, then the argument is that you can potentially summon every turn, as long as the last one you summoned has died.
 
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