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Need advice for 2999 point against DOC

Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
610
#1
Hi all im very new to the warhammer in fact iv never played, anyways my brother ho plays :devil2: asked me to play against him, iv don a bit of research and figured that the vc are most probably the best to dealing with the DOC's, anyways he always plays a 2999 pt game i know it sucks for i would have loved to have a casting lord as general and 1 a killing machine, what would be the best build for me and what can i expect from the doc's,
am i better of tacking casting lord or a killing machine, i know that he does a lot of mixing so im not shore what to expect, pleas help me kick his ass for my first game.

Thanks from count kill alot:suck:
 

MasterSpark

Nostalgian
Staff member
True Blood
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
4,691
#2
RE: need edvice for 2999 point against DOC

Hello Count Kill Alot, and welcome to Carpe Noctem.

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to ask that you put some more effort into maintaining good grammar and punctuation. It'll not only look and read better, it will also be good for exercising your e-grammar for when you need it in more formal situations. :)

Having your first game of Warhammer as a 2,999 points battle against your older, more experienced brother's Daemons of Chaos is really quite an uphill struggle for you. The Vampire Counts can combat them well, that much is true, but they have also got their share of advantages against us. I'm a bit short on time at the moment, but you should take a look at This Here Thread about general anti-daemon tips & tricks.

When is the battle due?
 
Joined
May 5, 2010
Messages
186
#3
RE: need edvice for 2999 point against DOC

Hai there count, welcome to the crypt, I'm sure you'll like it here :D

I would suggest for your first game, especially against an experienced player, especially against DoC, and especially against an older brother, that you go for an all round tough list rather than a magic heavy or a crazy killer list. This will be much more forgiving and give your opponent a headache or two.
 
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
610
#4
RE: need edvice for 2999 point against DOC

Hi all sorry about the grammar, was never god at it or the spelling, English is my 4th language so i tend to get confused on what to put:scared:, iv read the link and it gives me a great idea about the battle to come and how i might combat him, i will reread my army book and try to compose a list that you are more than welcome to criticize or improve on, i would also like to see what you would have on your list if you were in the same situation 2999 vs DoC.

As always thanks Count kill alot :suck:.

PS what is best to necros or vamps as heroes, i just had an idea of vamp h and the lord with lycni charging on the last combat round killing their big nasty and or expensive wizards.
 
U

ulrik

Guest
#5
RE: need edvice for 2999 point against DOC

Well, as I see it the most important thing for your upcoming battle is that your brother isn't a cheesy git.

Since you're new to the hobby, new to the army of Vampires and new to the rules, and the English in the rules book really isn't always that easy to understand, your brother simply MUST accept to face you with a very weak Demon army, or you must tell him to log in on this site and we'll teach him a thing or two...

But I assume your brother is a loving and caring sibling, so therefore I recommend he sits down with you and creates your army with you. He knows the rules, he knows the strengths and weaknesses of his and your army, and can give you important tips about the upcoming battle. He also knows how to create a legal army, and even more importantly, if he knows your army by heart, he will be able to adjust and create his Demon army so that is includes all units really BAD at dealing with just the troops you bring along. Since he's far more experienced, it's only fair he's got a lot weaker army, right?

I recommend you play with only 500 or perhaps 1000 points in your first battle. And don't use magic at all, nor any magic items. that way you'll have a easier task playing , and learning the rules as you play. Which will be far more enjoyable to you and your brother.
 
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
610
#6
RE: need edvice for 2999 point against DOC

Hi all, im shore that i will get one or 2 games of practice before the slaughter:konrad:, and as far as my brother goes he will defiantly cheese it up which is OK, i love a good challenge the harder it is the quicker you learn, in any case we are both competitive and have a take no prisoner philosophy, iv done egnof home work to know that its all about movement which suits me well, the way ill play him is going to be like chess protect the king aka lord :cool:, im thinking of a magic heavy lord and minimum 2 balefire's to dominate the magic phase occupy him with zombies and flank hard with GG, use dire wolfs as screening and then take down his flamers with blood knights and any other wizardry thing he might have, as i said make a heavy magic list and cripple his.

the lord im thinking of is :
+1 magic lvl
hell steed so that he can maneuver quickly
vamp powers:
dark acolyte
summon ghouls
master of black arts
magic items
helm of commandment
skull staff

thanks as always count kill alot:suck:
 
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
610
#7
RE: need edvice for 2999 point against DOC

oh yah forgot to mention that the battle due in a month or 2 from now when im back in Denmark, at the moment just painting and ploting:suck:.
 
U

ulrik

Guest
#8
RE: need edvice for 2999 point against DOC

Do you have all the miniatures at your disposal already? Or are you planning on buyingand assembling them all in order to fight this battle?
 
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
610
#9
RE: need edvice for 2999 point against DOC

Hi UlriK iv got a few that im painting right now but but will get more as soon as i finish, im settled on the vampire counts for now and might get BoC after im done with a 4 to 5000 pt army for VC, so yep im planning to get some of everything but lots zombies and Skelly's :zombie3::skull:.

Thanks Count :suck: alot
 
U

ulrik

Guest
#10
RE: need edvice for 2999 point against DOC

Well, Count Kill a lot, I must say you are really a devoted player!

But, serioulsy: Warhammer is a very expencive hobby, it takes a lot of cash to get an army, and an extremely amount of time to paint it all up.

I've seen sooooo many new players buy large amounts of warhammer, only to find out that they don't really like the army they've invested in, or sometimes don't even like the Warhammer game at all.

And then it's hundreds, thousands, of £ or $ and many hours painting down the drain...

So I really must recomend you stop buying any more miniatures, and instead start playing with the ones you have in small "Border patrol" battles or similar. And only when you are really sure you want to spend all that money and time on Vampires, THEN go ahead and buy new units (and I recomend buying second hand, a lot cheaper than from your local Games Workshop store).

i also recommend you pay a visit to the local gaming club (if these is one where you live) in order to check out what the game is all about. and before you invest a lot in Vampires, give the other armies a try as well. Perhaps some friendly people at the club will let you lend some of their troops and face them, so that you can get experience of playing with Vampires, aganist Vampires, with Empire, against Empire, with Elves and so on.
 

Onikaigo

Vampire Lord
True Blood
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
3,607
#11
RE: need edvice for 2999 point against DOC

I second Ulriks advice, Count Kill-a-lot.

I've seen, and done! What he's describing. You pay X hundreds of dollars in an army, play it for a month, burn out or simply decide that it isn't for you, and then you're done. It's wasted money that you're never really going to earn back. (Unless you paint it, sell it for more than it's worth....which is typical GW pricing anyways)

But, you seem to have a good start indeed. I second Ulrik as well that if you play against DoC at -those- point levels with absolutely no idea of what you're doing you're going to get absolutely slaughtered. DoC are easily the best army in Warhammer right now due to some very, very overpowered choices. And if your brother is a 'No holds barred competitor' like you describe him, he can do some very very nasty things with that army list.

If you see things like Bloodthirsters, Scribes, or lots of little (traditionally painted) purple/pink models hit the field...you're in for a rough game. I wish you the best, sir, but there's actually a quote in our Random Quote Generator that I would apply to this situation.

Something along the lines of:

Scratch that, found it!

Paksos said:
Having fought Daemons on a number of occasions now I can tell you we have one surefire tactic they never EVER prepare for. Once you've made you armies - but just before deployment - chuck his models' case out a window. Sorted.
 
U

ulrik

Guest
#12
RE: need edvice for 2999 point against DOC

Sorry if we're being harsch on you, Count kill alot, but it's for your own good.

save your money and time. Play games at your current level, with your current miniatures.

No use playing your first game against the most destructive army in the game, and against an experienced player, only to get absolutely slaughtered (I agree withoiut hesitation with Onikaigo that you will) and probably loose the interest of the game altogether after such an introducion...

A cheap way of trying out different armies is to play your first games using cardboard pieces to represent the troops you try out, like "this piece of paper here represents my Lord on a Zombie Dragon". That way you'll be able to test any army without actually buying every miniature from every army!

Cardboard armies may not look so cool, and won't let you practice your painting techniques, but they are cheap!
 
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
610
#13
RE: need edvice for 2999 point against DOC

Hey guys thanks for all the advice, but i know ill feel right at home with the Warhammer world, fact is that i use to play lots of blood ball and Necromunda where i played the House Cawdor Gang a very very cool game, so i already know how expensive it is and the amount of time it takes to make a good looking army, im settled on the VC as i like the way they look except for the spirit hosts and the lords, of all the books VC and BoC are the most appealing to me, the Cardboard idea is good ill do that for what im short of.
Back to the subject, what would your army list look like for a battle against DoC at 2999pt.
Im still gathering ideas but every time i finish a list its either short of somthing or im over budget so much to choose from, i know no ethereal against DoC's.
Thanks again Count kill alot:suck:.

PS constructive criticism and advice can never be harsh.
 
U

ulrik

Guest
#14
RE: need edvice for 2999 point against DOC

Well, Sir-kill-a-lot,

the thing is it's really difficult to give advice against Demons. They are strong. and powerful. and really really annoying.

And I MUST insist you limit the game to a manageable points level. Whats the point of playing 2999 points as you very fist game of Warhammer?

It will only be far to complicated, and you'll end up forgetting rules, magic items and unit specific abilities because, to be honest, we all need experience in Warhammer to do things correctly. The first few games are always packed with mistakes, forgotten rules and misread rules.

A game of massive 2999points will not be a pleasant experience for you. Instead, limit the battle to a manageable amount of points (500, 1000 or there about), where you only need to focus on a few number of units and special rules.
 

Onikaigo

Vampire Lord
True Blood
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
3,607
#15
RE: need edvice for 2999 point against DOC

If you absolutely -must- face DoC (Which I do as little as possible) I'd recommend as much smashy face stuff as you can pick up. Knights of whatever flavor you like, Ghouls over skeletons in a big big way, fighty Vampire Lord, and Grave Guard.

The way to beat DoC is to beat them in combat by a -lot- of points, so they're forced to vanish due to dice. If you slam into a Bloodletter unit and only leave two alive, they're most likely going to go away.

Now, depending on what he likes to take I'd change this list. If your Brother likes to go really heavy magic, I'd go with a Casty Magic lord (For invocation) Ghoulkin, and as many dispel dice as you can fit in the list. 22 powerdice on your opponents side of the field is not fun.

Hrm...Without knowing a general idea of what he's going to bring, here's what I'd field (Based on models owned, this is the only time I wish I had more ghouls)

Lord of Mounted auto-hitting smashiness. Roughly 450 points, 1+ AS and a 5+ (Or is it 4?) Ward save. Auto hits, gets more attacks per wounds and is mounted on a hellsteed.

Fighty Lord of Backup. Magical weapon (Tomb blade, perhaps?) Anti Killing Blow armor, and hatred.

Wight King of BSB Bearing Awesomeness. This is where some people would put the Regen banner, but I simply use him as a BSB and Character hunter. Give him the Sword of Kings for a Character scaring Combat resolution generator.

And another Vampire to fit your flavor. I'd still go fighty, and maybe even include Konrad for those days when your opponent brings Hounds or other larger multi-wound models.

And to round this out, the units.

20 Ghouls, Ghast 168
20 Ghouls, Ghast 168
25 Skeletons, Full Command 220
25 Skeletons, Full Command 220
25 Skeletons, Full Command 220
18 Grave Guard, Great Weapons 234
18 Grave Guard, Great Weapons 234
6 Black Knights 144

Now, depending on your flavor, some people prefer Blood Knights to take rare slots. I don't, so they're not included. More support units!

Corpse Cart x 2, Balefire (Terrified of the PD spam)
Dire Wolves x 7 (Dragon Traps, to catch Bloodthirsters if possible)
Dire Wolves x 7
Dire Wolves x 7


And this leaves you some points left over in case I did the math wrong. Add flaming banners, combat resolution banners, whatever makes you happy.

This is essentially what I'd take, since you're one point off of getting more characters/a Lord you get the benefit of -vastly- outnumbering your opponents. Use it, as when those units hit you it's going to really, really hurt.

The almost mandatory items I find against DoC are the Dire Wolves, and the Knights. The ability to catch and hold a Bloodthirster for a turn is huge with the wolves, and Black Knights are our only viable counter to fast nasty things like Hounds or Slaneesh whatever. They're all fast.

I wish you the best of luck.
 
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
610
#16
RE: need edvice for 2999 point against DOC

Thank you so much for the list, you mentioned a fighty lord how about this one.
+1 magic lvl 50 pt
zombie dragon 275 pt
vamp powers (100)
red fury 50 pt (extra attack per wound :konrad:)
infinat hatred 25 pt (re-roll failed to hit :konrad:)
beguile 25 ot (re-roll to wound with -3 ld modifier :konrad:)
magic item (100)
blood drinker 40 (for each wound inflicted the bearer or unit in regains a wound suffered:konrad:)
the cadaverouse cuirass 15 pt , it says (Heavy armour) does this mean that he is wearing HA or is it for killing blow saves?
wrist bands of black gold 30 (3+ ward save)
black periapt 15 pt (sacrifice a wound for extra PD)
total of:730.is he blood thirsty or what.
What do you think worth the points or not.

oh yeah house rules are: no named allowed so no castains, manfred ect.
ill ask him to send me his list, so i can prepare for the feast :konrad:.

Thanks again for advice and comments to all Count :suck:.
 
U

ulrik

Guest
#17
Well... I think your Lord is indeed a killer, but... you're fighting Demons.

While mounted on a Zombie Dragon makes him fast and lethal, it also makes him stand out on his own and leaves him vulnerable to charges.

Sure your Lord will look cool and will kill mostly anything that he charges. But then? A countercharge from a Bloodthirster, or even mediocre Bloodletters or other fighty demon, will cut down your lord in a single turn. He has only a few wounds, toughness 5 and only carries heavy armour, (the wristbands of black gold only protect him from shooting, not close combat), And trust me, he WILL be charged.

Then your opponent has been granted a massive 730 victory points, and your army begins to crumble as well.

Please, don't go out there and buy and paint up a lord on a zombiedragon only to see him getting cut down in turn 2 or 3 in the battle...

Well. You know what I think. If your still going through with this massive battle, I don't think I can help you much.
 
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
610
#18
Hi ulrik i will heed your warnings and start smaller battles to start with. but out of interest what would your lord setup be and why?

Thanks Count :suck:
 
U

ulrik

Guest
#19
Honestly, I don't know how to equip the Lord

I only play friendly games, and usually don't give my characters any Ward saves or armour (I think that's a bit cowardly). Furthermore I tend to play very aggressivly with my Vampires, charging at every opportunity (even though theycarry none or little protection)

Of course, my armies wouldn't stand a chance against a competitive army. Definitively not a competitive Demon army. But as I said, I only play freindly games, with themed, balanced games. I find these games to be a lot funnier to play, and simply don't care about who wins or loses, but just enjoy the battle regardless.

So I have no advice to give you on the matter. But I really like that you're going to play smaller battles, good descision:thumbsup:
 

MasterSpark

Nostalgian
Staff member
True Blood
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
4,691
#20
For a Fighter Lord against Daemons you'll definately want to equip him with the Cadaverous Cuirass to protect him from Killing Blows - those Khorne daemons can pack quite a few of them! The Daemons can also bring a rather troublesome amount of regeneration to the field, although we have Grave Guard, Black Knights and the Standard of Hellfire to help deal with that. The Sword of Might could be a good idea for your Lord since it'll help him out in all rounds of combat, as would the Sword of Kings. Pretty much everything in the Daemon army is vulnerable to Killing Blows. :thumbsup:

Edit: Infinite Hatred + Beguile and the Sword of Kings could be a good offensive combo against Daemons. I'll have to try it out sometime myself. :)
 
U

ulrik

Guest
#21
ha ha ha it's a good thing you're around, Masterspark, to give some seriously good advice :)


I just don't have the energy or get the "thrill" when selecting magic items. So often I skip them almost altogether. Which often results in dead Vampires on the battlefield ;) (no pun intended)
 

Onikaigo

Vampire Lord
True Blood
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
3,607
#22
I second Ulrik about the Zombie Dragon. You'll eat one unit, oh yes. It'll die, and it'll die -hard-, but as soon as you blow through an experienced player will have something waiting on you to eat it. Daemons can do that, and they do it exceedingly well.

I'd put him on a hellsteed(So he can hide in units, have his champion accept challenges, and basically be safer), with the rough combination I set up. (Dreadlance + Red Fury is the backbone of the equipment) and then run with whatever makes you happy. You auto hit, and you get more attacks per wound (At Str 7 auto hits as well) so barring good luck on ward saves, at least 2/3's of all models he touches die.

That's what I'd do, though I've never even used that combo. I play fun games, competitiveness really takes the fun out of it for me.
 
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
610
#23
Thanks for all the advice to all of you, i keep seeing something with 8th addition would it be wise to wait for them to be published. this might be the best tactic against DoC , since lots of people are complaining that they are overpowered ho knows xD, anyways thanks again for your help and advice ill still be around. ill see if i can get a preview of my brothers list so that we have a more suitable subject of discussion:suck:.
 

Pulimuli

Wight King
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
Messages
460
#24
DoC are pretty much the hardest army to face (especially for Vampires) and i get frustrated every time because there is pretty much nothing to do (depending on what kind of army the demons play)

anyhow they pretty much facerape us - i wish GW would balance demons in the 8th edition because it has pretty much always been like this
 
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
610
#25
Hey all i was pondering on this as a char slayer, the axe of krell combined with night shroud, red fury, infinite hatred, beguile, talisman of lycni for the lord, striking first as per NS re-role attacks and wounds, extra attacks for wounds so that's a potential of 16 attacks in total, poof goes the blood thirster:konrad:.

Count kill alot:suck:
 
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