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Need help with a very fast Wood Elf List

Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
188
#1
How would you deal with Wood Elves?

What could you advise on the dread WE menace that stirrs here and there in the quiet Sylvanian forest? I couldn't repell those pointy-eared tree-huggers so far, the forest spirits do not seem to pay any respect to dreadful necropolia, and my list of possible counter-measures slowly grows thin.

1. Do you think large amounts of ghouls could help solve the problem? If yes, what could do better: a few strong units or a lot of small ones?

2. Could the use of spirit hosts help?

3. Could a strong magical force be better than a force of arms?

4. Should light and fast units be preferred over heavy and slow ones against Wood Elves?

5. Was any specific unit in your case significantly useful?

6. Did raising the dead help you defeat them?

Thanks in advance for any support!
 

N.I.B

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
2,370
#2
RE: How would you deal with Wood Elves?

Heavy cavalry, chariots and magic missiles. There's a recipy for success against the tree huggers. Avoid Spirit Hosts like the plague, you know that Forest Spirits have magical attacks? HoDA? Not a good choice.

Raising and flanking Treemen/Treekin can be a game winner, as long as you can stop other elements from helping them.

Oh, I've never lost to Wood Elves with the Death Lord either.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
4,834
#3
RE: How would you deal with Wood Elves?

Mind you, Spirit Hosts can be used correctly. Just keep them away from the Forest Spirits; if he's got Waywatchers, then they're a great target for ethereals, and if he deploys with a unit of Wardancers + Noble in a forest he's probably going to use a magic item to transport them to another forest- if the Spirit Hosts can guard that area, then the Wardancers won't survive long. But generally they won't work so well ;)

Magic missiles are good... summoned troops aren't great as the many Skirmishers will easily charge them and thank you for the free VP's. Grave Guard and Black Knights are terrific, but if you get rubber lance syndrome then you will suffer, badly.
 

Falahk

Grave Guard
Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
288
#4
RE: How would you deal with Wood Elves?

i have taken 2 wins and one draw so far against WE

my advice as strage as it may sound is: get charged so the WE can bonce of....but try to keep it so the WE hit you in peace meal or atlest so that they will not be able to eliminate a unit in one go and that you can conter charge or build up your unit a bit more

so well.....keep it simple dont be all to agressive or get into silly positions......i would go for a slow advancing defenciv stance and not move mutch longer then half way across the table unless you have WE's boncing of to run down or some form of scenario objective to complet

and yes use zombies to tie up the treeman
and a black coach is always nice to have agaist WE(since they are sort of bad at dealing with it)
 

Arion

Vampire Lord
True Blood
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
3,414
#5
RE: How would you deal with Wood Elves?

As a woodelf player i may be able to help.
1.use magic missiles agaisnt dryads especially they have no save once hit by magic and are quite nasty(generally woodelves die no matter what unit from magic missiles treeman and kin are exceptions).Remember that wardancers and wildriders have Mr1.

2.Black coaches are very hard to deal with cause of our lack of str7.

3.If you get them to charge a zombie unit of 25+ they can't kill them all and you won't run away then you can flank them with something hard even just a thrall they should die prety fast

4.Black knights! if they get the charge they will hurt alot.

5.Woodelves rely on breaking people on the charge if they are fllanked they are:(.And guess what if you have a big enough unit they cant kill them all and youre unbreakable.

6.don't try to chase them youre to slow to catch them.

7.woodelf characters have lots of tricks such as teleporting between forests,shooting 3d6 magical str4 arrows in one shot with bs6 and causing one str5 hit to every enemy model in the forest with the mage.

Hope it helps.
 

Falahk

Grave Guard
Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
288
#6
RE: How would you deal with Wood Elves?

Arion said:
1.use magic missiles agaisnt dryads especially they have no save once hit by magic and are quite nasty(generally woodelves die no matter what unit from magic missiles treeman and kin are exceptions).Remember that wardancers and wildriders have Mr1.
i would disagree here, blast stuff in the following order:
1) lonly characters(altars).....thes guys are easy points for magic missiles
2) the cav(since they is one of the few metodes the WE have to take away your rank bonus.....a WE army that cant kill your rank bonus is a lot less scary)
3) Archers(with no archers the wood elves will probebly be forced to move forward......i would also probebly point my coach towards the archers)
Arion said:
6.don't try to chase them youre to slow to catch them.
depends on if you have a tasty unit to run down
 

TheAdmiral

Black Knight
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
302
#7
RE: How would you deal with Wood Elves?

Ghouls are a good choice. For 2/3 of a basic Wood Elf mdoel, they can pack a punch with poisoned attacks (no armour for the WE) and T4 is nice too.

Black coach for obvious reasons.

Vampires, A Thrall is a match for everything but a Treeman and a Count has a good chance of killing the lumber stockpile in CC. they also have 1 point of M more than an Elf.

Raising troops isn't really worth it, better get some Thralls for that.

Fell Bats could be good, depends on how much wood on the table.
 
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
288
#8
Wow. Woodies are terribly fast. I just got my tail handed to me twice in a row. His army was extremely fast I could not get close enough to make contact in a charge. He simply declared a flee move and then rallied and moved out of my charge arc.

With four dispel scrolls, He was able to dispel most of my magic and simply stay out of charge range and shoot me to pieces.

My black knights did not get a single charge nor did any block units of zombies / skeletons.

He keeps all the units in trees if at all possible and simply flees through the trees leaving me with a failed charge.

I play tournament all comers list only so any suggestions need to keep this in mind. This list has to be flexible enough to take on all armies but specific enough to have a chance against an extremely fast WE army.

Here is his list as best I can remember

2250 pts

6 X 6 models of the WE Fast Calvary all with musicians

1 X 10 model unit of the infiltrating scout with Killing blow

1 X 10 model of the bowmen with musician

1 x 3 Model of the Warhawk Rider

lvl 4 wizard thing
2 DS

2 X lvl 2 wizards
1 DS Each

1 Hero mounted on the Stag of Doom

That model that can shoot a boat load of magic arrows once per game! (this may be the same as one of the other models)

One hero on foot with the fast move and a great weapon

My 2250 pts

Van Carstein Count
LVL 2
Sword of Might
Spell Familiar
ADM
Ring of the Night

Von Carstein Thrall (Stays in Skellie Unit until he can charge out)
Wolf Form
Flayed Hauberk
Great Weapon

Necromancer
LVL 2
Book of Arkham
DS

Necromancer
LVL 2
Black Pirapt
DS

20 Skelies
Spears / LA / Shield
Full Command

21 Skellies
Handweapon / Shield
Full Command

15 Zombies

15 Zombies

6 Wolves

6 Wolves

10 Black Knights
Banner of Barrows
Barding
Full Command

6 Fell Bats


3 Spirit Hosts

1 Banshee
 
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
876
#9
I play VC and Asrai, so I may be able to help a bit. The Asrai army you have described is illegal. They get one Lord and 3 Heroes, just like you, at this point level.

lvl4 Spellweaver, 2DS 290
2 x lvl2 Spellsinger, DS 300
Alter Noble with GW and Hail of Doom Arrow and Helm of the Hunt 158

Someone riding a Great Stag is likely to be a Wild Rider Noble at a cost of a minimum of 150 points.

6 x 6 Glade Riders, mus 918 points
1 x 10 Glade Guard, mus 126 points

1 x 3 Warhawk Riders 120

1 x 10 Waywachers 240

With no other kit, that's over 2300 points

Yours may be a general purpose army, but your opponent's army is not. The enemy has chosen an army especially to fight an army with good magic and no shooting (VC and some Chaos) Facing an army with moderate shooting, they would get hosed. Facing an anrmy with limited magic, they have wasted a lot of points. I cannot imagine and serious Asrai player using this army in a general tournament and expecting to win many battles.

How did there get to be so many trees about? How was the terrain placed and selected? When facing Asrai, you must minimize woods if you can and place your terrain accordingly. Since he can outmaneuver you easily, do not over-extend your army. Deploy in a compact block. See if you can cordon off a section of his army and drive it against one of the table edges or corners.

You must use your magic aggressively and draw out his scrolls as soon as possible by raising new units or doing whatever you can to get his attention. Once his scrolls are gone, you can expect to rise some new units or replenis existing ones.

He has good morale, but must fail fear tests occasionally; and terror too. His fleeing units do need to rally and they will fail occasionally. If they fail they are likely to flee off the table. He appears to have little in the way of magic weapons and his units are small, so your Spirit Hosts should be able to do something, if only screen from his attacks, same with the Banshee.

He has about 60 shots and most of them are only S3. If he has all those woods about, he should not be able to concentrate his fire.

I would be trying to advance and suck up some shots, then charge with the Fell Bats, and drive him right off the back of the table or pin him against impassible terrain or things that are not woods or the edge of the table. Remember too that he must flee directly away from you and if he flees off the table, he is gone. Lay traps.

Be really evil, hire Mengil Manhide's Manflayers and shoot him down.

I'm not convinced that your army is very efficient. Banshees are of marginal value in 7th ed, for one. I would recommend that you ask for general army list help to tighten up your army.
 

Arion

Vampire Lord
True Blood
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
3,414
#10
1 Hero mounted on the Stag of Doom

That model that can shoot a boat load of magic arrows once per game! (this may be the same as one of the other models)

One hero on foot with the fast move and a great weapon

That second paragraph i think they are same model its common to have the HoDA(3d6 arrows) and alter with GW and hoth.

I think you need some ghouls they will help with 360 line of sight.And sit in a corner.There are two ways in manouverability,being fast or having so many models that your opponent cant move.Just raise raise and raise and eventually youll trap him.That suggestion for menghils manhide unit is a good one.If you can extend your army so that it practicly covers the board in one line then advance slowly over while of course raising you will trap his units.

Oh and archmagos's suggestions were good to.
 

Master Vampire

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Messages
2,342
#12
Nikolaj-Knude said:
Start by telling him the rules.

You can't move when you have rallied...
I think he meant in the next movement phase. :)

You can always reform a bit if necessary.

I take it that you learned Ethereals are no good against Wood Elves? Well seeing there are no Forest Spirits in his army list I guess it's a good option to invest in an Ethereal or 2. Mind you that Spirit Hosts can be very useful trapping Wood Elves who are in forests, as ethereals aren't suffering from movement penalties on those terrain! So charge them out, and then simply pursue a bit/move out. You'll get them eventually.

I think all above advice is of some worth. Let's see how this progresses. :)
 
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
876
#13
Arion

I don't think you have looked at the big picture. With 6DD and 4 scrolls, it will take two or three turns before you can get much raising off reliably. The army cannot properly 'cover' a standard six foot wide table and the enemy has enought shooting to be able to destroy a whole unit of 15 zombies per turn, plus the Hail of Doom at a unit of wolves. The 'cordon sanitaire' approach will fail miserably.

Ghouls will not help much. They are not particularly resistant to shooting and are not fast enough to do much. If he can't catch them with wolves, bats, and knights, I don't think Ghouls will improve things.

I think that he needs to completely master 'feigned flight' tactics and the effect of terrain on it and by using sequential charges, one to make an enemy flee, and a second to make the enemy flee off the table.

However, even with great tactics and tweaking to the army list, I do not think that he will ever beat this army reliably. It's very like Crassus vs Parthians or Romanos Diogenes IV vs Alp Arslan. You could win the campaign, but without fixed objectives or a tooled army list, you cannot win the battles very often.

Glade Riders are Fast Cavalry, see page 70 of BRB for the details, but they can flee from a charge and if they rally, can reform as much as they want and is free to move as normal.
 
Joined
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Messages
288
#14
ArchMagosAlchemys said:
The army cannot properly 'cover' a standard six foot wide table and the enemy has enought shooting to be able to destroy a whole unit of 15 zombies per turn, plus the Hail of Doom at a unit of wolves. The 'cordon sanitaire' approach will fail miserably.

I think that he needs to completely master 'feigned flight' tactics and the effect of terrain on it and by using sequential charges, one to make an enemy flee, and a second to make the enemy flee off the table.

However, even with great tactics and tweaking to the army list, I do not think that he will ever beat this army reliably. It's very like Crassus vs Parthians or Romanos Diogenes IV vs Alp Arslan. You could win the campaign, but without fixed objectives or a tooled army list, you cannot win the battles very often.
Finally, someone who sees the problem. Yes, I truly believe that this list was taylored to beat high magic low shooting armies like VC.

I am curious about how to set up the "Feigned Flight" tactic. How do you accomplish this? Although I do have my doubts about the success against WE how would you set up the "FF" against normal opponents?
 
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Messages
876
#15
Feigned Flight is something your opponent does when you charge him.

You need to master this so that when the enemy does it against you you will know how to exploit things. Read the Fast Cavalry, Feigned Flight, and Fleeing rules very carefully. If they flee into Impassible terrain, they die. Bring some chasms or something. If they flee off the table, they die. If they flee though your troops over US4, they die.

They must flee directly away from you.
 
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#16
ArchMagosAlchemys said:
Feigned Flight is something your opponent does when you charge him.

You need to master this so that when the enemy does it against you you will know how to exploit things. Read the Fast Cavalry, Feigned Flight, and Fleeing rules very carefully. If they flee into Impassible terrain, they die. Bring some chasms or something. If they flee off the table, they die. If they flee though your troops over US4, they die.

They must flee directly away from you.
Yeah, i get that part. the trouble is he can out range me in shooting and moving. He can set up just inside of my charge range and be assured that he has enough movement and room on the table to be able to flee and still shoot me to pieces with his fast calvary.

I think you see the problem. VC simply can not move fast enough or raise fast enough to withstand this much shooting from fast units which can flee and shoot on the turn they rally.
 

Master Vampire

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
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Messages
2,342
#17
AMA said:
You need to master this so that when the enemy does it against you you will know how to exploit things. Read the Fast Cavalry, Feigned Flight, and Fleeing rules very carefully. If they flee into Impassible terrain, they die. Bring some chasms or something. If they flee off the table, they die. If they flee though your troops over US4, they die.
Correction, US 5.

Miklos said:
Yeah, i get that part. the trouble is he can out range me in shooting and moving.
Your current army composition makes this a trouble. Though, if you tailor it a bit, as mentioned by AMA, you can still rather effectively make use of Feigned Flight rules.

A unit of Fell Bats are good for this. They can fly and get to US5 to make use of the 'Cross-fire' rules.

Though, you'll have to be careful though with enemy shooting.

I guess Dire Wolves are pretty good too. Although with little armor, S4 on the charge is more than a WE can take. After all, we're talking about the Elves and not the Forest Spirits. I think Dire Wolves are actually pretty good at charging Glade Riders, because they charge 18", so 9" if failed/they flee. Be sure to have some sort of back up, like AMA mentioned.

I guess slow armies suffer indeed from fast moving armies. Then again, one unit's death can result in defeat for them, even more so with Wood Elves.


But I honestly can not believe you can't outclass this guy with magic, even though he has 4 DS, these should be used up after 2 turns... And the lack of DD should give you the upper hand anyway.
 
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#18
Master Vampire said:
I guess Dire Wolves are pretty good too. Although with little armor, S4 on the charge is more than a WE can take. After all, we're talking about the Elves and not the Forest Spirits. I think Dire Wolves are actually pretty good at charging Glade Riders, because they charge 18", so 9" if failed/they flee. Be sure to have some sort of back up, like AMA mentioned.

I guess slow armies suffer indeed from fast moving armies. Then again, one unit's death can result in defeat for them, even more so with Wood Elves.


But I honestly can not believe you can't outclass this guy with magic, even though he has 4 DS, these should be used up after 2 turns... And the lack of DD should give you the upper hand anyway.
Like I said I try to play an all comers list choosing to play alot of weekend tournaments. As you can see I already have a unit of bats and two units of wolves. Both of these units suffer horribly from any kind of shooting. What I find is that his fast shooty army simply know to shoot the faster units first and stay away from the heavy calvary.

Actually, the reality is the magic phase can easily be controlled by 4 DS and 6 DD at least through half of the game. By that time, the loss due to shooting are nigh impossible to make up.

I have now played against his list three times and have had absolutely the same results.

Trees seem to be the worse, he will place at least two and then gets a free stand of trees due to his WE rule. These trees make movement for VC very difficult more difficult than it already is.

What I found is the Magic Missile spells are the most devastating against his army. However, I first have to roll one and then pass the dice roll and wait for him to either Scroll it or dispell it. Of course this means I am not raising new models and he then shoots them to pieces.

I have not seen how his list does against other armies. He admits to having watched me play other armies and win. He states quite proudly that he hand catered his list simply to beat mine and he concedes that he would not take his list to a tourny.

This is not an excuse it seems that an all comers VC list should still be able to beat his constructed list.
 
Joined
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Messages
288
#19
RE: How would you deal with Wood Elves?

this is similar to a recent threat I started....

how do you deal with WE that are only made of a unit of infiltrating archers....a unit of archers and the rest glade riders and characters..oh yeah and those hawk things..
 
Joined
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Messages
876
#20
Oh Mighty Master, I said over 4. 5 and any greater number is over 4. It's quicker than saying 5 or more.

The Asrai has 6DD, 4DS.

The Vampire has 8PD.

The Asrai have enough defense to limit the magic phase for the whole game and practically shut it down for the first half of the game.

You need a complex plan. Your front line should be knights, spirit host and Banshees which screen your wolves and bats. Try and get him to make a mistake and divide his army in two. If you set up about 24" in from one edge, there will be nowhere to the short side where his units can flee without the bats catching them or him fleeing off the table, and the bats can pursue over woods.

He may place two woods, but some of the time you get to choose table edge. If you are going to get into TerrainHammer, bring some long ridges. He cannot shoot at what he cannot see. Between the ridges and the woods, he may not be able to get very much shooting in at all. If he comes over the ridges to shoot at you, he will need to be close to you, so you may be able to run him off the table.

The simple fact is that ANY good Asrai build is tough for VC unless you build for them. They have enough shooting to take out most support units, close combat troops that tear our RnF to bits, very good movement, and some heavy close combat hitters. Between equally good players, I would expect Asrai to win all the time, without tailored lists or really bad luck.
 
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
288
#21
ArchMagosAlchemys said:
He may place two woods, but some of the time you get to choose table edge. If you are going to get into TerrainHammer, bring some long ridges. He cannot shoot at what he cannot see. Between the ridges and the woods, he may not be able to get very much shooting in at all. If he comes over the ridges to shoot at you, he will need to be close to you, so you may be able to run him off the table.

I like the ridgeline play. What did you call it....TerrainHammer.

How are other ways to employ this tactic?
 
Joined
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876
#22
Terrain can be a game in its own right, with winners and losers. Locally we play with random terrain to prevent terrain abuse.

Work out a plan and bring the terrain pieces you need to make it work, just be careful you don't get smacked around by an annoyed opponent.

Just to show how far some can go, a visiting Dwarf player had woods with stone walls around them so that he could count as both soft and hard cover fore -3 to hit, -4 at long range.
 

Lord Fear

Master Vampire
True Blood
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#23
RE: How would you deal with Wood Elves?

Use Dark Magic on one magic user, guaranteed magic missile then.
 
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#24
RE: How would you deal with Wood Elves?

EvC said:
Use Dark Magic on one magic user, guaranteed magic missile then.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention in my post....how do you have a successful magic phase when your opponent brings 4 DS and 6 DD.
 
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#25
ArchMagosAlchemys said:
Work out a plan and bring the terrain pieces you need to make it work, just be careful you don't get smacked around by an annoyed opponent.

I have been placing a building piece 12" out from the center of the table. Would it be advisable to place a long hill in that position or add a long hill? I have to keep in mind that the more terrain I add the more trees he can add. It just doesnt seem that one small hill to break LOS is all that effective as he can still set up his trees and flank around the lone hill.

While if I set up two hill or the building / hill combination he can simply set up his trees which only serve to slow me down and do not impede his movement whatsoever.
 
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