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The Sun King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Aug 22, 2012
4,953
Copenhagen
So I am super hyped about a new SBG tome!

The things I'd like to see fixed in the upcoming Soulblight Gravelords book:

1. Significantly reduce allegiance abilities, but make them better. So, for example, stronger and more consistent recursion.

2. Give access to better rend on a few units. Bloodknights seem obvious.

3. Unlock Enhancements from subfactions.

4. Improve internal balance so that some of the more fringe units such as Coven Throne and Mortis Engine have more appeal.

5. Make the spell lores better and more interesting.

What are your wishes for the upcoming book?

Cheers,
Sunny
 

Kiba

Zombie
Jun 20, 2013
45
I would be (very) happy with a spell to summon zombies/skeletons like the good old days of battle

And the corpsecart having the ability to transfert wounds to zombies (and bring some back)
 

The Sun King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Aug 22, 2012
4,953
Copenhagen
Spell summoning would be a cool call back to warhammer fantasy, but they have been phasing it out and I think the reason is that spells are a free resource and summoning needs to be balanced somehow.
 
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Kiba

Zombie
Jun 20, 2013
45
That's not very different from the actual 3rd ed summoning armies.

Once a round in your turn, and unlike these armies a spell can fail.

But yeah it's very unlikely that it will come back
 

Gederas

Ghoul
Jun 15, 2021
198
Rhode Island
Here's my main one:

Make it so that Soulblight Gravelords IS THE recursion battletome.

Another thought:

Make it so the modeled weapon differences actually matter. Skeletons and Blood Knights weapons are not the same, why do they only have one profile?
 

Oppenheimer

Varghulf
May 26, 2013
708
I'm sad we didn't get new grave guard and instead just got yet another Vyrkos foot hero.

My wish is that our deadwalkers and deathrattle get more allegiance buffs, the can't have hits reduced and get +1 save but only on turn 1 were very underwhelming. Also better lore spells for vampires.
 
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Gederas

Ghoul
Jun 15, 2021
198
Rhode Island
I'm sad we didn't get new grave guard and instead just got yet another Vyrkos foot hero.

My wish is that our deadwalkers and deathrattle get more allegiance buffs, the can't have hits reduced and get +1 save but only on turn 1 were very underwhelming. Also better lore spells for vampires.
Who knows, we might see updated Grave Guard as a random release for some kind of campaign book -huffs more copium-
 

The Sun King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Aug 22, 2012
4,953
Copenhagen
That's not very different from the actual 3rd ed summoning armies.

Once a round in your turn, and unlike these armies a spell can fail.

But yeah it's very unlikely that it will come back
The thing is that in order to balance summons they need to have a resource to expend that is baked into the army and the points costs.
 

Rapscallion

Skeleton
Jan 26, 2022
53
Here is what I am hopeful they will address:

1> Better spells - deathmage spells are far superior to the vampire spells. I would like to see some spells that boost our recursion, deals damage, and reduces saves

2> Better rend on what are supposed to be our hammer units

3> Better reach on Blood Knight lances, at least 2"

4> Give all vampires the Cado version of The Hunger

5> Boost vampires to actually be scary

I also hope they do not heavily nerf the Mortarchs.
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,593
I can't start getting hung up on things I hope they actually do change, because I mostly expect a copy/paste job. Right now I'd be relatively content with that, but if I start building expectations around getting more then that, then I feel I'd only be setting myself up for disappointment. That said, I can talk about the changes I would make if I were in charge of writing a new SBGL battletome, with the understanding that I'm not writing the new battletome so I don't actually expect to see any of this:

1) complete re-think of the lore of the vampires. The new concept is "the vampire wizard draws blood from an enemy unit, and uses that blood to empower themselves or other vampires". In practice this means all of the vampire spells are both minor magic missiles - 1 mortal wound at 18" range, or d3 mortal wounds if cast with an unmodified roll of 9+ (replacing the double-cast). Then the follow up effects could include things like "the caster may immediately pile in and attack as though it were the combat phase, but afterwords strikes last in combat until the end of the turn", "the caster gains +6" move in the following movement phase", "choose a vampire unit within 12" of the target and heal up to 3 wounds allocated to that unit", "choose a vampire unit within 12" of the target, the chosen unit gains +1 to ward saves until the start of your next hero phase", "The vampire may immediately cast an additional spell they know, with a +1 bonus to the casting roll. This does not count against the normal limit of spells they can attempt to cast" - stuff like that. Gives the whole thing a 'blood magic' feel.

2) Significant rework of the subfactions. Fewer command traits and artefacts - 3 per subfaction instead of 6, but with serious effort put into making all of them good. Each subfaction also gains their own set of three 'bloodline traits' as a unique enhancement. Every non-unique vampire hero gains a bloodline trait, and you are allowed to take duplicates of the same trait if you wish.

2a) Legion of Night: lose outflank, lose battleline vargheists, become the deathmage faction, highlighting Mannfred's mastery of necromancy. Lore-wise add new fluff that Manny specifically went out of his way to find and recruit scattered survivors of the Legion of Sacrament, and that in doing so he's learned many of Arkhan's & Nagash's secret rites and plans. LoN gains +1 to cast deathmage spells, mannfred knows all of the deathmage spells. Bloodline traits: 1) Necromantic Study (wizard only) vampire may choose their bonus spell from the deathmage lore instead of the vampire lore. 2) Grave Walker (<10 wounds only) Vampire may deploy 'in the grave' as per summonable units. 3) Shroud of Darkness: -1 to hit for shooting attacks directed at friendly units wholly within 12" of the vampire.

2b) Vyrkos Dynasty: lose their current faction traits. Gain the outflanking trait that Legion of the night lost, which imo better fits a hunting wolf pack than their current rules. Lore-wise say that since the destruction of Ulfenkarn and the quiteting of the necroquake most of the bloodline have abandoned pretentions of nobility and returned to skulking the hinterlands of shyish, as they did throughout the age of chaos. Bloodline Traits: 1) Wolf Aspect - can retreat and still charge later in the same turn. 2) Bat aspect - at the end of your movement phase can remove them from the table and set them up again anywhere more than 9" from any opponent. 3) rat aspect (<10 wounds only) - the first time each game that this model is slain by wounds or mortal wounds caused by an enemy model, roll a die. on a 1-2 the model is slain as normal. on a 3+, remove all wounds that have been allocated to this model and disregard any remaining wounds or mortal wounds that have yet to be allocated to it. You may then immediately make a normal move of up to 12" as though it were the movement phase. You may make this move even if the model is currently within 3" of enemy models, but must end the move more than 3" from any enemy models.

2c) Legion of Blood: lose their current faction traits. Gain re-rolls for vampire casters. Lore wise not new development but retcon to go with the change to the lore of vampires - Neferata invented vampire blood magic, she is the master of it, and she shares her strength with her progeny. Bloodline traits: 1) quicksilver Blood - strikes first in combat, 2) Aura of Command - summonable units wholly within 12" gain +1 to wound, 3) Master of Intrigue - after deployment but before determining control of objectives, you may remove one friendly unit from the table for each vampire with this bloodline ability in your army. You may then immediately set those units up again, following the normal restrictions for deployment from the battle plan you're using.

3d) Avngorii: lose battleline zombie dragons & terrorgheists, gains battleline vargheists instead. The faction is about /becoming/ monsters, not animating their corpses. Bloodline traits: 1) Monstrous Form (<10 wounds only) - the vampire gains +1 wounds characteristic and the monster keyword, 2) ???, 3) ???
Haven't thought as much about what I'd do with the Avengorii & Kastelai.

4) Coven Throne is a buff wagon, but no longer a hero. IMO too much conceptual overlap with blood palanquin

5) in exchange, Mortis Engine is now a hero, deathmage, & dual caster wizard.

6) grave guard gain +1 save & a bodyguard rule for soublight heroes with <10 wounds

7) Black Knights gain +1 save & stronger lances to make them more of the medium cavalry unit, & leave fast chaff role to dire wolves and fell bats

8) Dire wolves cheaper, 1 wound each, making them chaffier, harder hitting for the points, & easier to heal, drop the bonus to hit and wound on the charge and give them retreat & charge instead.

9) Fell Bats: remove retreat and charge, gain deep strike.

10) Vargheists remove deep strike, gain 'the hunger', +1 attack, and 3d6" charge.

11) Vampire lords gain +1 rend and +2 attacks, VLoZD gain +1 rend on their sword attacks, +1 attacks with both sword and lance, Vengorian and Lauka Vai gain +1 rend, Vhordrai gains +1 attack with lance, Blood Knights gain +1 rend on the charge, etc. Most vamp melee heroes and units gain +1 attack or +1 rend or both.

12) Wight kings lose their command ability, gain +1 wound, can issue a command ability to a deathrattle unit once per player turn without spending a command point, when you activate a wight king in combat you may immediately activate a deathrattle summonable unit within 3", reduce in points.

13) simplified invocation. All heroes invoke once, healing 3 wounds or restoring 3 wounds worth of slain models to any friendly summonable unit within 12". If the chosen unit has already been invoked this turn, then heal 1 wound or restore 1 wound worth of slain models instead. Mortarchs Invoke twice instead of once. Soublight generals may choose to measure range for their invocations from gravesites instead of their own bases.

14) ditch the healing spell, not needed with better invocations.

15) no conditions on 6+ death ward.

16) Endless Legions: I constantly flip flop on whether to simplify it or remove it completely, replacing it with grave-digger-esque rules elsewhere in the book (maybe wight kings grave dig for deathrattle units, maybe various subfaction artefacts or command abilities summon or grave dig for specific units associated with them, etc).

17) Standardize 'the hunger' rule.


Changes to the unit line up, some of which requiring changes to the model range, mostly serving to retire the cursed city box set and retire redundant units

1) Vampire Lord on Barded Nightmare - new model, new unit, designed to complement blood knights.

2) Vampire Mage, vampire offensive statline but only 3 attacks, -1 rend. unique blood magic rule lets them suffer a mortal wound to enhance their casting, arcane hunger rule restores wounds when they successfuly unbind spells or dispel endless spells - in addition to normal hunger. Dientallos is an alternate model for this, even if it's a different base size

3) Radukar the Wolf, Kritza, Annika, the new Vykos hero, and maybe Cado are all alternate models for the generic vampire lord unit, even though some of them have different base sizes.

4) Torgilius is an alternate model for the generic necromancer, even though he has a different base size.

5) The Exiled Dead are alternate models for deadwalker zombies, not their own unit

6) The Sepulchral Guard are alternate models for skeleton warriors, not their own unit

7) Re-cut Velmorn onto a separate sprue and release him as the new generic wight king on foot model. Watch Captain Halgrim is an alternate model for a Wight King, not his own unit.

8) Re-cut Gorslav onto a separate sprue, release as a new generic gravekeeper hero for any subfaction

9) New Zombie Ogor generic unit for any subfaction, kosargi become alternative models for these

10) Re-cut Vargskyr onto a separate sprue, release as a new generic unit for any subfaction

11) New models for grave guard. The Sons of Velmorn are alternate models for grave guard, not their own unit entry, even though one is on the wrong base size

12) Soulblight Bloodborn - new unit vampire infantry, 8 models on 32mm base including unit champ plus one beefy model on a 40mm base, rules based roughly on Askurgan Trueblades, though maybe without the specific ghurish focus on monster hunting. Askurgan Trueblades lose their unit entry and become alternate models for these, or just become the main models for these if new models can't be fit into the schedule. Vyrkos bloodborne lose their unit entry and become alternate models for these. The Crimson Court lose their unit entry and become alternate models for these.

13) New zombie dragon model, with variant builds for Vhordrai, Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, and unridden zombie dragon. No terrorgheist, that's not a soublight unit anymore, though it may still be taken as an ally. FEC in turn get a new terrorgheist model, but lose access to zombie dragons except as allies.

14) New black knight models. No longer dual kit with hexwraiths, which get their own new model kit.

"A note on base sizes: Games Workshop has published a wide variety of unique models for the soulblight gravelords over the years, and some of these have included unique base sizes. While the base size of currently available models are always the most official and up do date, you can always continue playing with your models using the bases they came packaged on in normal games. Official events and tournaments can of course set their own rules on how they want to handle this."

That kills 10 or 11 (depending on whether cado makes the cut) imo superfluous warscrolls outright without rendering any existing models technically unusable, while opening up Gravekeepers, Vargskyrs, and zombie ogors as units any subfaction can play with, and adding vampire mages and vampire cavalry lords to the pile as new options.
 
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El Syf

Vargheist
Dec 4, 2011
643
Eastbourne
Everyone with very good suggestions here.
lore of vampires is pretty trash so I’d agree on that. I think Cado could do with a points increase and give him his unique scenario command ability as his command ability!
Give blood knights extra rend as standard and the extra damage on the charge. Generally make vampires great again! Vampiric powers please?!
And I pretty much agree cut the crappy artefacts and the other thing down but make them a few you’d struggle to choose between.

also if we are really wishlisting
And I mean really wishlisting…

Abhorash! FTW!
 

The Sun King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Aug 22, 2012
4,953
Copenhagen
Oh hell yes to Abhorash! That would be ace! Would be sooo cool with a new Kit for a generic Vampire Lord on Nightmare that could be built as Abhorash as well.
 
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Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,593
IMO abhorash belongs in the old world. While I'd absolutely love to see him in the Old World game, I'd much prefer the mortal realms stick to mortal realms characters going forward. But that's just me.
 
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El Syf

Vargheist
Dec 4, 2011
643
Eastbourne
IMO abhorash belongs in the old world. While I'd absolutely love to see him in the Old World game, I'd much prefer the mortal realms stick to mortal realms characters going forward. But that's just me.
Yeah I’m mostly okay these days with Abhorash not appearing. Just as we were wishlisting thought I’d throw out one of my more ludicrous wants.
 

The Sun King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Aug 22, 2012
4,953
Copenhagen
Seeing that the new Hedonites of Slaanesh battletome has their command traits and artefacts locked into subfactions makes me think that the new SBG tome will do the same. If this is the case I am a bit miffed, as I generally don't like that sort of design, pigeon holing players into certain builds. I much prefer when they limit the amount of different artefacts and traits and then try to balance them more but are available to all subfactions.

How do you guys feel about this?

Also what traits, spells and artefacts would you like to see being moved over to the new tome?

For me the list would be:

Traits:
Aura of Dark Majesty: Its a lore classic, and it has an interesting and powerful effect.
Swift Form: It is a really strong and flavourful trait for our vampiric generals.
Pack Alpha: I really like the theme of this trait and it is also really strong.
Maddening Hunger (mount trait): This is one of the coolest things you can do as the Avengorii, so I hope they keep something like this.

Artefacts:
Soulbound Garment: I have always had a thing for buffing armour saves (and Armor Class in DND). I guess I just love tankiness. :D
Fragment of the Keep: A very thematic item with a strong effect. Love it.

Spells:
Amythistine Pinions: I really like this utility spell, and I hope we get even more utility spells.


Cheers,
Sunny
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,593
if you think that vampire magic in WHFB was such a powerful tool for VC...
That really depends on the book. caster vamps were king in the 7th edition vc book, and while blender lords were more popular in 8th, you would still see builds based on flying a caster vanp over to an enemy army's flank then blasting a purple sun through their battleline. 5th & 6th ed had subfactions that were meant to be magic specialists and others that needed to take necromancers to have mire than a little bit of support magic. Pre-split undead were always strong in magic, although vampire generals were the choice to have a stronger fighter with slightly less magic power compared to necromancer or liche lords.

The undead were usualy one of the stronger magic armies in the game, both before and after the vc/tc split. It's a consistent part of their fluff in WHFB and AoS, as the undead in general only exist in the first place because of magic, but the quality of implementation varies.

Right now the arcane strength of undead factions across aos is a bit low. strong magic factions need good spell lores AND lost of casts / unbinds per turn AND manipulation of casting rolls through bonuses, rerolls, or otherwise. Death wizards tend to also have additional healing, buffing, or combat abilities layered on top, which makes them useful units, but dilutes the efficiency of their spellcasting as you're often spending well over 100 points and a full hero slot for each individual cast. They also tend not to have built in casting buffs, instead relying on limited traits & artefacts to lift their casting rolls above the base 2d6. vamp counts have coven thrones & mortis engines, but they're pretty expensive. Vyrkos have casting rerolls, but only on their vamps and the vamp lore is awful.

There are strong undead named casters here & there - Nagash, Arkhan, Volga, Rheikenor. but the factions overall are only middling, well below seraphon, lumineth, tzeentch, or magic-focused cities builds. I would prefer if obr in general and at least one subfaction each of nighthaunt and soulblight could play the magic game on that level.
 

The Sun King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Aug 22, 2012
4,953
Copenhagen
I think we have really good buffs to magic, it just doesn’t matter much when our spells are mediocre.

Vanhel’s Danse Macabre should not be a warscroll spell, it should be part of Lore of Deathmages.
 

Gederas

Ghoul
Jun 15, 2021
198
Rhode Island
In general, I agree with a lot of the thoughts here but I HEAVILY DISAGREE with Sception's thoughts on removing characters and making it all generic. That doesn't add variety, that takes it away 🤣

I do agree, we need a mounted Vampire Lord, as well as a casty Vampire Lord. I could also see a mounted Vampire Lord being a dual kit to make a Necromancer on steed (or even triple kit for a named character?)
 

Sception

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Sep 23, 2009
2,593
In general, I agree with a lot of the thoughts here but I HEAVILY DISAGREE with Sception's thoughts on removing characters and making it all generic. That doesn't add variety, that takes it away 🤣

Look, we have too many warscrolls, too many named heroes, and /way/ too much boxed game stuff. That stuff needs to be cut back, especially if we ever want to see new units.

Frankly, I'd rather see variety come from build your own options - ie unit varients available to all subfactions (vampire mage vs lord) with variety and uniqueness coming from artefacts, traits, and bloodline powers tied to each subfaction, rather than a dozen vyrkos heroes nobody uses and that gw doesn't even want to sell anymore for a side game that was seemingly deliberately botched.

Andaking those side game units all good would only cause /more/ problems, as one dubfaction suddenly has half a dozen more viable units than any of the others, units that are again overpriced and hard to get and not carried in stores.

halgrim and torgilius and raduwolf and annika aren't adding /anything/ to the game, let alone variety.

There is zero reason for 'zombie hero' to be a legion locked unique hero tied to a particular bloodline instead of a generic option. Canon Gorslav has no history or personality to justify being a named hero. Even within cursed city lore gorslav was rumored to actually be an entire order of zombie undertakers rather than just one guy. Making him a regular faction hero instead of a named subfaction hero isn't 'reducing variety'.

Likewise, every vampire lord, regardless of bloodline, teeters on the edge of losing themselves & becoming a beast. That's what the varghulf unit used to be about, and it wasn't limited to a single bloodline, so why does only one subfaction have access to the vargskyr, the modern equivalent of that concept?

cursed city was a cool concept unfairly ruined by some sort of behind the scenes supernatural disaster and we all wish it had gotten the life it deserved. But our faction can't be dragging the wreckage of it behind us like a ball and chain forever. The dang city doesn't even exist in the lore anymore! It's gone! Consumed by Shyish! Lost to the Nadir! The stuff that's worth keeping from it (imo vargskyr, gravedigger, ogor zombies) should be integrated into the faction as proper units, and the rest (bloodborn, canonically dead & gone named heroes) should be retired, folded into existing units.

And yeah, I feel the same way about most of the other box game stuff. if it can claim to be a distinct and playable full unit (like the recent warcry warband) then make it a normal part of the battletome, but if its an unplayable fragment of existing units, like the sepulchral guard, that doesn't need to be gumming up our warscroll section.
 
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The Sun King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Aug 22, 2012
4,953
Copenhagen
I would absolutely love if they made Gorlsav into a generic Zombie hero. A Zombie hero is what this world needs!

In general I agree that having a load of irrelevant warscrolls (like everything from Cursed City) is not adding interesting list building options. But they could be turned into something useful. Like making the Vargskyr a monster for instance. But I doubt that they will give the box set units much importance as they by their nature are limited editions and shouldn't be the main focus of the faction.
 
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