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Majrenob

Zombie
Jul 17, 2014
36
Hi all, 1st post here, this forum is great!

Last night I was playing a 2200 point game against HE with my gaming buddy. I had a group of Zombies (ASL) who received ASF due to the CC effect. The Zombies were charged by a hero mounted on a Frost Phoenix (which gives an ASL Aura).

So my question is how do multiple ASL's and ASF's interact? My buddy's position was that 2 ASL's beat 1 ASF and that the Zombies were ASL, therefore he gets rerolls to hit from his ASF elf hero.

I think that ASF and ASL, being status effects, are either present or not present. As the Zombies were ASL & ASF, he should not have been able to reroll to hit.

Has anyone else ever ran into this situation?

As an aside, I gave him the reroll to hit and the Zombies sunk some unexpected wounds through before blowing up. Giving me a moral victory before the eventual points victory.
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Dec 9, 2013
1,315
Normally, ASF and ASL cancel each other, regardless of how many of each there are. Example: Vampire hero has Great Weapon and gets ASF from CC but is in contact with Frost Phoenix that gives ASL, so there is one thing for ASF and two for ASL, the vamp will go at Initiative. An easier way to put it is all ASF cancels all ASL and vice versa.

Your situation is unique in that Vigour Mortis has a specific effect for zombies in which it removes ASL and they then get ASF. I think the rule doesn't state that it cancels the rule that gives them ASL, it just says that it cancels the ASL and replaces it with ASF. So I might have argued that zombies with ASF from a CC can't lose it to a second source of ASL because Vigour Mortis cancels ASL on zombies. However, for the sake of sportsmanship, I probably would have said that the ASF/ASL cancel each other or ask for a ruling, which would probably agree with the cancellation.

As for ASF/ASF cancellation. If you have ASF/ASL and your opponent just has ASF, they will get to reroll if their Initiative is equal or greater and for zombies, that's everything. If you both just have ASF/ASF, no rerolls from Initiative.
 
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John Rainbow

Crypt Horror
Mar 7, 2013
596
PA, USA
This topic comes up a lot, especially when Elves are involved due to their ASF and Frost Phoenix ASL, etc. I would recommend searching the forum here for more threads on this (they are many) and even looking on some other sites like Warhammer Foru,m, Ulthuan, etc as they all talk about this too.

General consensus is that you cannot have ASF twice as you discuss. You either have ASF or you don't. For instance if you have ASF from one source, ASL from another and then get ASF again from somewhere else (e.g. timewarp) you do not get ASF back, it still cancels with ASL as you cannot have duplicates of a special rule.
 

Skittelz1981

Varghulf
Apr 28, 2013
707
AMS
I think the zombies are quite an exception idd.


I will try to explain step by step how this process works.

- Zombies have Initiative 1 and they have ASL; this is to make sure that zombies pretty much always hit last which represents their incredibly slow behaviour. This is to make sure that when an enemy has reduced initiative from e.g. a spell, zombies will still strike last. (ofc enemies with ASL strike simultaneously).
- The Corpse Cart gives ASF, normally it would cancel out with ASL but they made an exception on the zombies for one reason; zombies would 9/10 times still be striking last due to their initiative even when they gain the ASF-buff. But the Corpsecart is tied to the zombies by fluff and therefore is the only source of ASF that removes their ASL and replaces it with ASF. Granting zombies a true ASF but never allowing them to reroll to-hits (unless another source boosts their initiative), it does allow them to counter reroll to-hits on them, which is what it is all about. Any other ASF source would simply cancel out ASL and make them hit on Initiative.

Now in this case, Corpse Cart simply grants your zombies ASF, which then gets cancelled out by the ASL given by the Frost Phoenix. This is because their own ASL has been removed and replaced by Vigour Mortis. Vigour Mortis simply makes zombies ASF, but they can still suffer from a source that gives them ASL again, making them attack at their Initiative.
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Apr 10, 2013
1,089
Arguing from a purely technical point of view, the Vigour Mortis removes that ASL and replaces it with ASF. It doesn't matter when the ASL is applied to them, or from what source. If they are affected by the Vigour Mortis, then they lose any ASL they have and replace it with ASF.

I don't think that's how they intended the rules to interact, and I wouldn't try it in a game, but strictly speaking that's how they work.
 

Skittelz1981

Varghulf
Apr 28, 2013
707
AMS
I dont think so Blutsauger.

From a purely technical PoV; natural zombie-ASL is removed during the magic phase by vigour mortis. So during the magicphase Zombies gain ASF.
But it isnt until closecombat that they get debuffed by ASL from a source that is in basecontact. This source of ASL is not removed and therefore is valid to cancel out their ASF.

Vigour Mortis specifically states, quote:
"Zombies affected.... lose their ASL special rule, and gain ASF instead."

So vigour Mortis removes the ASL zombies naturally have and replaces it with an ordicary ASF, just as if it would be an elf. But, if for some reason something gives them ASL again, then it simply cancels out.
The ASF given by vigour mortis is not suddenly an extrapowerful form of ASF, it still works as usual. It simply intends zombies to be able to have ASF in the first place. It does not shield them from an ASL debuff.

Nowhere does it say "zombies gain ASF and can never lose it" (like Hatred)
 
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Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Apr 10, 2013
1,089
Any ASL the zombies have is their ASL. If they have it, then VM removes it and replaces it with ASF.

The fact that VM actually removes ASL and grants ASF does actually make it an extrapowerful form of ASF.

They could conceivably lose their ASF if some item or ability were to have an effect that removes ASF. But if they are affected by the ASL rule, then VM both cancels ASL and grants ASF.

I think you're right from a game play point of view, I'm only arguing it for the sake of argument, as a mental exercise.
 

Skittelz1981

Varghulf
Apr 28, 2013
707
AMS
hahaha, noted and i can appreciate that. Yet you still remain with the fact that ASL is removed during magic. Then gets given back from another source in a later phase during the turn. Effectively cancelling out ASF given by Vigour Mortis.

And i disagree on the extrapowerful ASF. Vigour Mortis simply has a bonuseffect on zombies. It removes ASL, it doesnt give an ASF that is any different from the normal rule.
The rule 'Vigour Mortis' removes ASL from zombies, not the rule 'ASF'
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Dec 9, 2013
1,315
hahaha, noted and i can appreciate that. Yet you still remain with the fact that ASL is removed during magic. Then gets given back from another source in a later phase during the turn. Effectively cancelling out ASF given by Vigour Mortis.

And i disagree on the extrapowerful ASF. Vigour Mortis simply has a bonuseffect on zombies. It removes ASL, it doesnt give an ASF that is any different from the normal rule.
The rule 'Vigour Mortis' removes ASL from zombies, not the rule 'ASF'
By your argument then, what if the phoenix comes into combat, goes a round, and then the VM goes off? The ASL was in place before VM, so VM would remove it; it wouldn't magically come back in the CC phase; that just doesn't make sense. So why would it apply if VM is already removing ASL?
 

Skittelz1981

Varghulf
Apr 28, 2013
707
AMS
??
I really dont get what you say.


- 2 units come into contact in charge/movement
- magicphase sees VM removing ASL from zombies and replaces it by ASF, now zombies have ASF.
- shootingphase
- closecombat, Phoenix gives ASL to b2b, so ASF-zombies get ASL from Phoenix, this cancels out, Initiative is the order of striking.
- Opponents turn, nothing changes, situation remains the same.
- VC turn again, Movement
- Magicphase sees you fail to cast a spell on CC so no VM, now zombies retain their ASL
- shootingphase
- closecombat, phoenix still gives ASL, but zombies are ASL anyway UNLESS they get the VM, so nothing happens.


Dont confuse the fact that ASL is getting replaced by ASF suddenly makes zombies immune to enemy debuffs. If it were skellies getting ASF from VM, they would also get ASL from Phoenix, again cancelling out each other and striking on Initiative.... same goes for zombies.


I see what you mean with the 2nd round, if VM would go off again, but by then zombies will have gained their own ASL back, which is what gets removed by VM. This has nothing to do with what happens in closecombatphase, which is where the source of debuff comes from.
Everytime VM goes off, it only takes away the natural ASL zombies always have. It does not remove any ASL from another source UNLESS that source would be a spell like a hex. But in case of the phoenix that is not so. Its a debuff given when fighting in closecombat which is separate from what happens during magic.

But here again, you can go on RAW and not take into account context but then youre not considering the big picture and the setting in which this happens. Which imo is a wrong approach. You have to RAW and then put it into its context. Which is the entire situation and set of rules that apply in it.
 
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Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Dec 9, 2013
1,315
So I finally got to my book, and it says "zombies affected by vigor mortis lose their ASL special rule..." so the ASL from another source would cancel their ASF from VM.
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Apr 10, 2013
1,089
Way I look at it is this, if you're in combat then...

Step 1. Who strikes first? My Zombies have ASF.

Step 2. They are given ASL in addition to their ASF.

Step 3. Are they affected by Vigour Mortis? If yes, then they lose the ASL, and instead gain ASF.

The order of the steps, and the sources of the ASL and ASF are irrelevant. You just need to ask the question, are they affected by Vigour Mortis? If the answer is yes, then they lose any ASL they have, and gain ASF. And they are affected by Vigour Mortis until the effect expires, not just when it first comes into play.
 

Skittelz1981

Varghulf
Apr 28, 2013
707
AMS
No theyre not irrelevant Blutsauger. your way of looking at it is just wrong.
But i give up on explaining any further
 

GhoulKing505

Grave Guard
Mar 21, 2011
211
I'm not aware of the wording of the phoenix's aura but doesn't it say that any unit in base contact gets always strike last? Wouldn't that apply as soon as he made his charge or you made yours? I know the phoenix also lowers strength. Wouldn't this apply before the magic phase instead of waiting till combat?

If you accept this there is a way to look at it that your zombies get asf. Say you charged the phoenix on your turn. As soon as you touch his base he gives your zombies asl. They already have it though so nothing happens. Then in the magic phase you get your vm off giving the zombies asf. Would you really need to reapply the aura of the phoenix since you already have? Wouldn't reapplying it mean you reapply everything about it and not just parts? So zombies would be -2 strength and asl if you applied it twice? Kinda a weird situation. It's not an easy answer. Unless of course it specifically states in the phoenix's rules that it is applied in close combat. If that's the case my whole argument is shot.

I'm not saying it's a hundred percent right but it is one way of looking at it. Plus I believe that since it's your turn you get to decide in what order things are applied if two things seem to be happening simultaneously and there's no rules otherwise. And as always: when in doubt rool off. Food for thought.
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Dec 9, 2013
1,315
When I initially replied to this , I thought that VM removed ASL without specifically removing the special rule that gives zombies ASL. After reading it, I found it to say that VM ONLY removes zombies own ASL and then gives it ASF; VM does NOT remove ASL from any other source.
 
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Skittelz1981

Varghulf
Apr 28, 2013
707
AMS
When I initially replied to this , I thought that VM removed ASL without specifically removing the special rule that gives zombies ASL. After reading it, I found it to say that VM ONLY removes zombies own ASL and then gives it ASF; VM does NOT remove ASL from any other source.

this.

I quoted this before but somehow everyone was blinded.

And in answer to @GhoulKing505, an aura doesnt go away and ist applied once, it stays.
VM on the other hand is a one-off buff that alters something at 1 point in time. And as stated above, it replaces the ASL the zombies naturally have by ASF. Nowhere is it stated that it removes ASL in general. It doesnt remove ASL on skeletons or on anything else. It just doesnt.
It simply alters and replaces zombie-ASL and replaces it by ASF. If anything gives it ASL again, from whatever source, those zombies are gonna be hitting on Initiative.
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Apr 10, 2013
1,089
this.

I quoted this before but somehow everyone was blinded.

No one was blinded, you just didn't follow the argument through to it's logical conclusion.

VM removes ASL.

It removes ASL that is affecting zombies.

It removes their ASL.

The word "their" in this context does not refer to only the single instance of ASL that comes from their unit special rules. It is used to refer to any ASL affecting the zombies, because it is quicker to say it that way. Any ASL that is affecting the zombies is 'their' ASL, because it is affecting them.

VM removes their ASL. It removes it, regardless of the source, and regardless of the time that it was applied. If VM is affecting the zombies, then the zombies cannot ever, in any way or for any reason, be affected by ASL. Any ASL that affects them is instantly removed, and replaced by ASF.
 

Skittelz1981

Varghulf
Apr 28, 2013
707
AMS
No, you are simply making that up. 'their' definately means the ASL a zombie naturally has. It is not removed, it is replaced by ASF, but only for the instance of their own natural ASL.....
Compare it to skeletons. They gain ASF as well from VM, but since skellies never have a natural ASL, it needs not to be replaced, they simply gain ASF, but if in contact with blizzard aura or anything else, its gonna be Initiative again.

Like i stated before, VM is designed to give zombies the possibility of actually having ASF, therwise they always strike last due to their low Ini. Its not supposed to worl as somekind of immunity to debuffs.
RAW does not support that pov. Debuffs arent mentioned anywhere. It simply speaks of the ASL that zombies have by default.

Your logic is the size of a Giant Batbrain, just like your picture xD (no offence meant)
 
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Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Dec 9, 2013
1,315
Any ASL that is affecting them is 'their' ASL. It can't be anyone else's after all!
I think it's strange how you were trying to Rules Nazi us out of taking Wight Kings without a VL based on rules language instead of rules intent, but still can't see how the language for the CC says it only applies to zombies' own special rule and nothing else, even if that's not the intent.
 

Skittelz1981

Varghulf
Apr 28, 2013
707
AMS
Do zombies have ASL? - check
Does Corpsecart VM speak about zombies and when the VM triggers it removes the ASL special rules that zombies have by default? - check
Does VM hint in anyway towards removing ASL in general when it concerns a debuff? - no


Why, in any logical and technical way, would VM remove ASL from zombies if its a foreign debuff and not do likewise on ANY other unit?
Ah, heres the answer: because VM does specifically speak about the ASL that zombies have by default.


'their ASL' is the rule they have by default.
When Blizzard Aura hits, the ASL is not 'theirs' its not inherent to the unit. They have come under the influence of an aura that gives them ASL. Thus an ASL that is perpetrated on a unit as a punishment for being in b2b contact cannot be removed and replaced by ASF from VM. Because it is not 'their' ASL.
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Apr 10, 2013
1,089
No, any ASL affecting them is 'their' ASL. It can't belong to anyone else, or be affecting anyone else, it can ONLY be referred to as 'their' ASL. It doesn't matter where it comes from.

It's just how we refer to things. If a unit has a certain buff, say from a spell, then we refer to it as 'their' buff or 'their' bonus. Like if we have Wights for example, with the Banner of the Barrows. We refer to the bonus as 'their' +1 to hit, even though the bonus does not come from the units special rules, but an item that is affecting them. Likwise, if they were to be affected by a spell that reduces their Toughness, we would talk about 'their' toughness penalty.

Similarly, if a unit is affected by ASL (from any source) we can talk about it as being 'their' ASL. It can't be anyone else's, after all, as it's affecting them.

'Their' ASL is any ASL that is affecting them, not the single instance that is granted by their special rules.

I think it's strange how you were trying to Rules Nazi us out of taking Wight Kings without a VL based on rules language instead of rules intent, but still can't see how the language for the CC says it only applies to zombies' own special rule and nothing else, even if that's not the intent.

That's not rules lawyering, that's just the rules. General MUST have the highest LD AND must be a wizard.

The requirement to be a wizard doesn't give you permission to ignore the requirement to be the highest LD.
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Dec 9, 2013
1,315
The problem is that Vigor Mortis says it negates the zombies Special Rule of ASL. The Zombies have three Special Rules on their profile: Undead, The Newly Dead and Always Strikes Last. So what Vigour Mortis does is changes their Special Rules to: Undead, The Newly Dead, and Always Strikes First. Vigour Mortis in no way changes any other unit's rules, including a Phoenix with Blizzard Aura. So Always Strikes Last from any source other than the Zombies' Special Rule would cancel Always Strikes First from Vigour Mortis.
 
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