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Originality?

Sanai

Stylish Deviant
True Blood
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
5,229
#1
So I was having a discussion on warseer, and someone compared the idea of Nagash having a flying black pyramid to "Naxxramas, or the Necron Monolith".

Someone then said "The Necron Monolith, because it predates world of warcraft".

To point out how wrong they are about the Necron Monolith predating Naxxramas (and just the general wrongness of the idea that WoW is where the floating undead pyramid thing started in the warcraft setting) I pointed out that Naxxramas itself is based of the Scourge Necropolis in warcraft 3- which is itself a floating black pyramid (the final upgrade even has it chained to the ground to stop it floating away IIRC)


then, just to make sure I had things the right way around, I checked the dates.

Warcraft 3, the game in which these buildings first appeared, was released in July 2002. In addition, via Beta/Alpha footage, concept art, screenshots, leaks, etc, it was seen months before that.

The Necron Monolith was released in September 2002.... two months after WC3 was publicly released.

The uncanny resemblances don't stop there either- remember that green crystal on top of the Necron Monolith?



here is the undead spirit tower, which features a big crystal at the apex of a pyramid, that shoots at nearby enemies. It is even green if you choose that as your team colour.

And the green portal at the front of a necron monolith?

well, the undead scourge in warcraft 3 summon their buildings through a swirly green portal.





It could all be coincidence, but the resemblances sure are uncanny, as is how close the dates are- 2 months + the... I am guessing 3 or 4 months? that WC3 would have been in beta/alpha/had pictures floating around could well have been enough time for a WC3 inspired Necron Monolith to have been designed and prepared for release.

I am not accusing GW of plagiarism, just enjoying thinking about a fun theory.

Anyone know of anything else Games Workshop, or any other company have done that could theoretically been inspired (or plagiarized) from somewhere else? Apart from the obvious stuff like some companies marketing their products as a cheap replacement for existing GW armies.
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
171
#2
Warcraft exists because Blizzard wanted to make a computer game version of Warhammer and Games Workshop said no. They went and created it anyway devising their own lore.

Basically, the whole relationship between Warcraft and Warhammer is one big incestuous mess.
 

Sanai

Stylish Deviant
True Blood
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
5,229
#3
Warcraft exists because Blizzard wanted to make a computer game version of Warhammer and Games Workshop said no. They went and created it anyway devising their own lore.

Basically, the whole relationship between Warcraft and Warhammer is one big incestuous mess.
I thought that was starcraft?
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
171
#4
Nope. Well, Starcraft may be based on 40K but it's Warcraft: Orcs and Humans that was originally supposed to be a Warhammer Fantasy game.
 

The Dread King

Moderator
Staff member
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Jan 28, 2012
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1,897
#5
One big question of originality will no doubt arise in the world of GW when the End Time expansion and any potential Nagash army list has emerged. I know that CN's army list is fan-made and set in lore created by GW, but I suspect that some entries found in the Nagash army list will be awfully similar to those in the Legion of Nagash section of this forum - and I'm not only referring to those previously detailed in GW lore. In all likelihood, content was previously taken from the Legion by GW for the latest VC book: it seems probable that the hexwraiths are strongly based upon the old Legion list's spectral cavalry.
 
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Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
True Blood
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Aug 19, 2007
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3,461
#6
Monoliths, pyramids, undead themes with glowing green and spikey bits, it's all been done in many different versions. Bad guys wear black and purple, etc, etc.

There's an expression in the designer world, and it goes "steal like an artist", which can be boiled down to something like, you steal what you like and put your own spin on it. Who's being original these days seem to be more who got famous for it + how many people know about rather than who did it first. Personally, I think it comes down aestethics, ie, the sum its parts. An area where I think GW has kinda lost it. Too many of their minis are overly busy with over the top level of detail(seems every VC mini needs, at minimum, 50 skulls/horns/tusks, or ghosts flying everywhere). Square Enix and their Final Fantasy is the perfect example of this, though compared to GW they've complete lost their minds, to the point where GW's stuff could be called sublime and subtle.
 

hairyjeff

Crypt Horror
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
583
#7
As nearly all of the content of most games is based on literature, which is based on mythology, which is fragments of ancient religion,well.... originality is at a premium!
 

The Sun King

Imperator
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Aug 22, 2012
Messages
3,838
#8
“Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don’t bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: “It’s not where you take things from - it’s where you take them to."
- Jim Jarmusch
 

The Dread King

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#9
Whilst the points made about originality (and the excess of spikes/horns/bits) here are all valid, whilst this argument is a little pedantic, I would refer you not to the look of the spectral cavalry in comparison to the hexwraiths, but to the concepts behind them, as areas in which GW have adapted content from CN.

Spectral Cavalry - 65pts each - Limit: 1 unit per 2000pts - - Not yet updated

Unit size: 4-10

Spectre - M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 1 / I 3 / A 2 / Ld 5
Champion M 4 / WS 4 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 4 / W 1 / I 3 / A 3 / Ld 5
Mount - M 8 / WS 2 / BS 0 / S 4 / T 3 / W 1 / I 2 / A 1 / Ld 2

Equipment:
Spears
Spirit Armour

Options:
-Any unit may upgrade one Specter to a Musician for +20 pts.
-Any unit may upgrade one Specter to a Standard Bearer for +25 pts.
-Any unit may upgrade one Specter to a Champion for +25 pts.
-Any unit may give their Standard bearer a magic banner of up to a total of 90 pts.

Special Rules:
Terror
Undead

Insubstantial -
As per the VC rulebook with the following addition:
They may also charge or march through friendly units as long as they fully clear the friendly unit at the end of their movement, if they fail to clear it either counts as a failed charge if the unit was charging, either way if the remaining movement takes them into the unit they will stop when they touch the friendly unit.
Any friendly unit that the Spectral Cavalry move through either suffer D6 wounds as per crumbling if they are undead, or if alive must take a panic check.
This ability is lost if a character joins the unit.

Spirit Armour
Grants the bearer 2+ armour save, and a 5+ ward save. The ward save does not work vs magical attacks. Movement is not affected by this armour.

Deadly Touch
Attacks do not allow armour saves and count as magical.

Spectral Wind
At the end of the combat phase, if the unit has won combat but not broken the enemy they may choose instead to leave combat by passing through the enemy unit. Roll 3D6 as if pursuing out the back of the enemy unit, providing the distance rolls clears the enemy unit place the Spectral Cavalry appropriately. If the roll is not enough to clear the enemy unit the spectral cavalry remains in position and the enemy will strike first next next combat phase unless their weapons or other special rule prohibits them from doing so (i.e GW), the enemy does not gain any other bonus's i.e strength bonuses.
This ability cannot be used if the Spectral Cavalry has been charged in the flank or rear.
This ability is lost if a character joins the unit.
This entry seems drastically different from that for the hexwraiths at first - the two have little more in common than causing terror, being magical and being ethereal (or having a ward save against non-magical attacks, in the case of the spectral cavalry, to represent ethereality in game terms). However, the combination of the spectral wind and insubstantial rules, in combination with the similar limit on the spectral cavalry unit size, does suggest that games workshop were at least inspired in part by this entry when designing the rules for their hexwraiths, which were only added to the army book in its latest edition, which was produced after the legion of Nagash was (though notably, its predecessor was not).
 
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
293
#10
I think it's a really good idea for the undead to have a giant floating pyramid as their HQ. I'm a big fan of the weird, otherworldly nature of the Scourge in Warcraft and I think making the undead in Warhammer more like them is better. Also, Nagash looks like Kel'thuzad, but with legs. This is also good! In fact, I was actually thinking of making my Armies on Parade board for next year a ruined city with a necropolis floating above it.
 
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