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pit of shades vs ridden monster

dongilles

Grave Guard
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
237
#1
Hello all,

In a game today a high elf mage casts pit of shades on my zombie dragon with vampire lord. He said that I needed to roll 2 dice one for the dragon and one for the lord.

I rolled a 5 for the dragon and a 4 for the lord

So I needed to remove the dragon because of his int of 2.

Is this correct? Then this spell WAY to overpowered
 
Joined
May 6, 2014
Messages
583
#2
Yeah that's how it works. No reason it shouldn't work like that.

You think that's bad for you. The 850 point glottkin model is I 1
 

dongilles

Grave Guard
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
237
#3
that also sucks!
But the basesize is way smaller. The zombiedragon will almost always be hit by the template.
Also I was hoping that I could use the Int of the vampire for the dragon, just like the LD.
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,091
#4
I'm away from my book at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that any spell that requires a model to take an initiative test, you only test once for ridden monsters. It is a single model after all.
 

Mad 'At

Dumb enough to work
Staff member
True Blood
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
2,378
#5
That is the case with pure characteristic tests, like that of the dweller's bellow (test the best S on the model, if you fail the whole thing is dead). Pit of shades is a template so it hits both parts separately.
 

estwheadn

Black Knight
Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Messages
301
#6
I am not sure whether you would roll once or twice. The way I read the spell it would just be once. "All models take an initiative test" and since it is just one model with split profiles you would just take one test. However if you did have to take two then I am pretty sure the dragon would get to use the vampire's initiative anyways
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,091
#8
I disagree. The spell forces all models hit to take a characteristic test. A ridden monster is a single model. Worst case scenario, the model is hit twice (although I think that interpretation is pushing poo uphill) but takes both tests at the best value (normally the riders).

See, I would argue that no matter how many times the model is hit by the template, it still only takes a single initiative test. It doesn't say to take a test per hit, just that all models hit must take a single test.
 
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#9
I disagree. The spell forces all models hit to take a characteristic test. A ridden monster is a single model. Worst case scenario, the model is hit twice (although I think that interpretation is pushing poo uphill) but takes both tests at the best value (normally the riders).

See, I would argue that no matter how many times the model is hit by the template, it still only takes a single initiative test. It doesn't say to take a test per hit, just that all models hit must take a single test.
A monster mount still counts as its own model. The rules note that it is not treated as a single model like cavalry and that templates hit both rider and mount.

Both excerpts of the brb on page 105 follow what mad 'at said.
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,091
#10
I agree, with the important caveat that if something requires a model (even a ridden monster) to take a characteristic test, then the model tests using it's highest version of that characteristic. Pit of shades states that any model hit, takes an initiative test. So you hit the model twice with the template, and then take an initiative test using the highest Initiative. Because you don't take a test per hit.

But even if you did, you would take both tests at the riders Initiative as per page 10.
 
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#11
I agree, with the important caveat that if something requires a model (even a ridden monster) to take a characteristic test, then the model tests using it's highest version of that characteristic. Pit of shades states that any model hit, takes an initiative test. So you hit the model twice with the template, and then take an initiative test using the highest Initiative. Because you don't take a test per hit.

But even if you did, you would take both tests at the riders Initiative as per page 10.
You don't hit the model twice, you are hitting each model once. Remember they are still 2 separate models that use their own statlines for everything.
 

Blutsauger

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Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,091
#12
Well, no they're not. You can't just shoot at one or the other, things that affect 'the model' affect both, and more importantly, they're a single plastic entity with a single base. They are treated separately for the purposes of hitting and wounding, but that's it. For characteristic tests (and every other instance) they are treated as a single model. And would only be required to take a single test for Pit of Shades, and would take any tests on the highest initiative of the model.
 
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#13
Well, no they're not. You can't just shoot at one or the other, things that affect 'the model' affect both, and more importantly, they're a single plastic entity with a single base. They are treated separately for the purposes of hitting and wounding, but that's it. For characteristic tests (and every other instance) they are treated as a single model. And would only be required to take a single test for Pit of Shades, and would take any tests on the highest initiative of the model.
You can't just shoot at one or the other the same way you can't just shoot at one or the other in a unit comprised of two characters, has nothing to do with them sharing a footprint.

And no where in the rules does it say to treat them as one model. It only ever says how to resolve attacks vs both of them. It even says under the templates section of ridden monsters that both get hit by any template that passes over them, not any template distributing damage as shooting, Any template.
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
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Messages
1,091
#14
Fact is, they ARE a single model. The rules allow you to treat them as if they were separate for some purposes, but characteristic tests aren't one of those purposes. The rules even say that "if a character has a ridden monster the whole model is treated as having the monster troop type". Note the use of the singular 'model' as opposed to 'models'. This language is repeated throughout that section of the rules.

The part that details how a rider and monster may be attacked separately even says "Whilst a cavalry model is treated as a single model for the purposes of hitting and wounding, a character and his ridden monster can be attacked separately." It doesn't say you treat them as separate models, just that they can be attacked separately and that in this instance (and only this instance) they can be treated as separate models.

They aren't treated separately for dangerous terrain tests, for shooting, for characteristic tests, and not for certain spells either. In fact, they are always treated as a single model except when hitting or wounding, and even then they are treated as a single model when being hit by normal shooting.
 
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#15
Fact is, they ARE a single model. The rules allow you to treat them as if they were separate for some purposes, but characteristic tests aren't one of those purposes. The rules even say that "if a character has a ridden monster the whole model is treated as having the monster troop type". Note the use of the singular 'model' as opposed to 'models'. This language is repeated throughout that section of the rules.

The part that details how a rider and monster may be attacked separately even says "Whilst a cavalry model is treated as a single model for the purposes of hitting and wounding, a character and his ridden monster can be attacked separately." It doesn't say you treat them as separate models, just that they can be attacked separately and that in this instance (and only this instance) they can be treated as separate models.

They aren't treated separately for dangerous terrain tests, for shooting, for characteristic tests, and not for certain spells either. In fact, they are always treated as a single model except when hitting or wounding, and even then they are treated as a single model when being hit by normal shooting.
They are the same model in the same way a brick of skeletons are the same model. They are stuck together as a unit and share the same footprint.

None of this disputes that it still says all templates hit both of them.
 

Blutsauger

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1,091
#16
I'm sure I don't need to explain the difference between a unit composed of individual models, and a single model.

Regardless, what happens when the template hits the models? It forces a characteristic test. And since it is a single model with multiple values, that test is taken on the highest value.

I agree it could be argued that you would force the model to take two tests. You are causing two hits, after all. But I would argue the point if my opponent tried to push the issue because I don't think that's how these rules interact, and I'd definitely stand my ground on both the monster and rider using whatever initiative value is highest.
 
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#17
I'm sure I don't need to explain the difference between a unit composed of individual models, and a single model.

Regardless, what happens when the template hits the models? It forces a characteristic test. And since it is a single model with multiple values, that test is taken on the highest value.

I agree it could be argued that you would force the model to take two tests. You are causing two hits, after all. But I would argue the point if my opponent tried to push the issue because I don't think that's how these rules interact, and I'd definitely stand my ground on both the monster and rider using whatever initiative value is highest.
The difference is you can't selectively target other multi value models. You hit the whole thing. A character and a monster mount are effectively two models that overlap and can be targeted as such. If they can be targeted separately why would that change when both are hit by a template?
 

Blutsauger

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1,091
#18
A character and a monster mount are effectively two models that overlap and can be targeted as such. If they can be targeted separately why would that change when both are hit by a template?
Well, no they're not. Things that affect 'the model' (such as dangerous terrain) only affect 'the model' once, and the biggest point is that the model is, physically, one model. The rules even refer to 'the model' (singular) throughout the section that deals with characters and monsters. You can't target them separately EXCEPT in combat. Shooting is either randomised or hits both elements of the model. You certainly can't pick a character off his mount with deathsnipes, you just resolve them against the model.

The rules tell us when we can treat this single model as two entities, and characteristic tests is not one of those times.
 
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#19
You actually can pick the character off with deathsnipes, it even says so under the shooting portion that snipe attacks can target one in particular and those read the same as the snipe special rule.

You may even be right on the characteristics test thing, unfortunately this clashes with the template section of the rules that say both are hit if a template touches the monsters base. Which I suppose would still let you use the highest initiative but still suggests both have to test in this case.

If it were a unit targeted characteristics test they would definitely test once because even if you had to randomized who got hit you would use the better initiative anyway.
 

John Rainbow

Crypt Horror
Joined
Mar 7, 2013
Messages
598
#20
I agree with Tobiothan although I don't think the rules in the ridden monster section are very clear. Blutsauger, you are picking out sections that say treat it as a single model but there are also references to the unit being composed of two models. I don't think you can make this arguement. The rules are very clear that each model takes a test when hit with a template so I don't think any argument about using the highest characteristic of the model applies. I have always seen it ruled in tournies as Tobothian describes (each takes a test on its own value).
 

LordTobiothan

Crypt Horror
Joined
May 6, 2014
Messages
583
#21
I agree with Tobiothan although I don't think the rules in the ridden monster section are very clear. Blutsauger, you are picking out sections that say treat it as a single model but there are also references to the unit being composed of two models. I don't think you can make this arguement. The rules are very clear that each model takes a test when hit with a template so I don't think any argument about using the highest characteristic of the model applies. I have always seen it ruled in tournies as Tobothian describes (each takes a test on its own value).
Tbf even if both have to test. It doesn't technically preclude them from using the highest state rule. This thing is really all over the place about what it is.
 

dongilles

Grave Guard
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
237
#23
Thanks for all the debating about this subject. I am glad that read that this rule isn't clear and its not just me
To bad there isnt a 100% clear conclusion.
 

bigbadbat

Harbinger of Dandelions
True Blood
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
1,244
#24
It follows the rules for templates, so rider and monster are hit. If its a cannonball, it hits both. If it's a stone thrower, you randomize which "model" is under the hole, but both are hit.
 

LordTobiothan

Crypt Horror
Joined
May 6, 2014
Messages
583
#25
It follows the rules for templates, so rider and monster are hit. If its a cannonball, it hits both. If it's a stone thrower, you randomize which "model" is under the hole, but both are hit.
Would the dragon get the characters initiative for the test though? It seems he might because you'd use the highest characteristic for single models.
 
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