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Please advise on a 1250p. starter list

Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
10
#1
I have played a game of 1000p. against Goblins. Barely won :)

a few notes:
*I cannot take a Lord as the book says Lords can only lead 2k+ point armies but I see a lot of lists with them, how so?
*WK cannot have any additional magic items if he has the BSB but I see a lot of lists here where WK is equipped with them. How is that?

My main questions are:

I. What do you think about this list? I am not going full competitive but I like the skeletons and don't want to invest everything in GG.

II. I do not like my Vamp, it is a hybrid caster/soldier. Could you suggest something how to make him into a pure caster? (I will not remove the crown of command, it is too useful).

Sorry for the long post and thanks for your thoughts,
Kuosa.
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
5,444
#2
Kuosa said:
a few notes:
*I cannot take a Lord as the book says Lords can only lead 2k+ point armies but I see a lot of lists with them, how so?
This book was written in 7th edition warhammer. The FAQ addresses this, and makes changes to the book. FAQs are found on the Games Workshop home site, and there is stickies in these forums to find them. If you have trouble locating them, let us know. Basically, army compisition is now:
Up to 25% of your points spent on lords (so 1250*0.25=312.5. This is the maximum you can spend on a Lord, in any army, not just Vampire Counts)
Up to 25% of your points on Heroes.
At least 25% on Core.
Up to 50% on Special.
Up to 25% on Rare.
Kuosa said:
*WK cannot have any additional magic items if he has the BSB but I see a lot of lists here where WK is equipped with them. How is that?
Not quite true. Any BSB cannot take magic items if they have a Magic Banner. So if you have a BSB, you can take magic items, OR a magic banner (of unlimited points for the banner), but not both.
Kuosa said:
My main questions are:

I. What do you think about this list? I am not going full competitive but I like the skeletons and don't want to invest everything in GG.

II. I do not like my Vamp, it is a hybrid caster/soldier. Could you suggest something how to make him into a pure caster? (I will not remove the crown of command, it is too useful).

Sorry for the long post and thanks for your thoughts,
Kuosa.
First, we have a new book coming out shortly. If you are planning on buying models, you may want to hold off until then.
Second, if you already have a number of models, what do you have to work with?
Just working with your list, these are my thoughts:

Kuosa said:
200pts
vamp (G)
Vampire
dark acolyte, avatar of death, crown of command, sword of battle, ironcurse
This Vampire is much too fragile to put into combat. With only a Toughness of 4, a 4+ Armour Save, and a 4+ Ward Save, many regular troops can kill your general. I would scrap a Hero and use a Lord. You said you wanted a caster vampire; the main powers to base that around are:
Forbidden Lore, Master of the Black Arts, Dark Acolyte, Helm of Command. It's a bit tough to do at low level of points like this, as a Caster vampire you usually bunker, and the Vamp + bunker will be about 30% of your army.

Kuosa said:
100pts
king
Wight King
bsb
Wight Kings are great. There are a couple of common builds for a Wight King. They are:
Hoff King. Wight King with Drakenhoff banner. Too expensive at this level of points in my opinion, but they give a regeneration save to an entire unit.
Character Killer. Wight King w. Sword of Kings, Other Trickster's Shard, and usually something like the Dragon Helm. Killing blow on a 5+ is really scary, espeically if he has some kind of reroll to hit (Van Hel's), +1 to hit from Banner of the Barrows, First Strike (van hels, corpse cart). He has Lord level wounds (3), Lord level toughness (5) and a massive killing blow, for fairly cheap.
General Purpose. Something like BSB, Flayed Hauberk, Great Weapon. Cheap, effective. However, usually you have Grave Guard with Great Weapons so this is not normally necessary. The previous 2 Wight Kings are far more common.


Kuosa said:
Minimum Core

180pts
skellies
skeletons x20
full command

160pts
ghouls
ghouls x20
I love the look and feel of skeletons, but they are truly lacking. If you have the points, you may want to equip your skeletons with a magic banner. You will find they are terrible in combat.

Kuosa said:
335pts
guard
grave guard x20
great weapons, full command, banner of barrows
Very common unit, and by far our best. Your unit size is a bit light; you may want to increase it to 25.

Kuosa said:
100pts
bats
fell bats x5
This is fine; good for Warmachine hunting. Another option would be to spend 20 points more and get two units of 3. Would give you more options.

Kuosa said:
XXXpts
varghulf x1
Fine. Good paired with the Bats to help them march.
 
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
10
#3
Thank you for your thoughts.

I know about the new book and the common models/units that are usually taken.

I only have 11 skeletons (1 is emerging from the ground as there are 11 torsos and 10 leg pairs) and a necromancer (cool mini). I am not buying anything else until the new book, these are only to test my paintscheme.

I have read the FAQ but I see I missed a few things, thank you for that.

My current list is EXACTLY 1250p. so adding smth means dropping smth else. I could let go of 1-2 Bats to give the WK a sword.

I still want to improve the Vamp to be a pure caster, if he sees combat while bunkered in a unit of skellies I know the battle is lost already.
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
5,444
#4
I don't understand; are you saying that apart from the models listed you only have 11 more skeletons and a Necromancer?

If so, there's not too many changes that can be done, but I would still suggest:

1) Get a champ on your Ghoul unit.
2) Drop some skeletons until you're at the bare minimum core value.
3) Depending on what army you're fighting, drop the bats. They're good for warmachines, and that's it. If your opponent does not have Warmachines, they are fairly useless. Also, they are 100pts that can be easily capitalized on.
4) If you drop the bats, take the pts from them and the skeletons, and change your Vamp hero to a hybrid lord. It is very important to have a good Lord as they are the key to Vampire lists. If they die, you lose usually. I would take one of the following builds:

Vampire Lord:
Forbidden Lore: Death, Dark Acolyte, Crown of the Damned
- lvl 3 caster, decently protected. At 1250, I don't think I'd bunker this guy.
Forbidden Lore: Vamps, Crown of the Damned, Flayed Hauberk, Biting Blade.
- A fighter type that goes on the front lines, but also has a good selection of easy to cast spells. Summon Zombies on 3+, Van Hel's Dance 5+, Gaze/Curse on 6+. Vampire has many useful utility spells.

At 1250 pts, I think bunkers and pure casters are too expensive for my tastes. I think with good placement, you can help out in SOME form of combat. A vampire lord, even with no gear, is no slouch in combat. WS7, S5, T5, A4... the danger comes from units that have high Strength, such as great weapons, or monsters, or units that deal poison. The problem si that your General has a giant target on him, because if he goes down, you lose your best caster, 1/4 of your army usually, and your army starts crumbling. It's just horrible for us to lose our General. So it does come with a degree of danger.
 
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
10
#5
ok Grish,

what I meant that I ONLY have 11 skellies and a necro, the rest are various proxies (waiting for new book).

I do like your vampire builds BUT I dislike F.Lore as I cast IoN and VDM only. If I make the vamp killy (Forbidden Lore: Vamps, Crown of the Damned, Flayed Hauberk, Biting Blade) should I place him with Ghouls? As the GG already have a King and Ghouls need more CR.

I will drop the bats for now and invest into a Lord and a Ghast (for taking challenges instead of my vamp).
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
5,444
#6
You can't guarantee getting Van Hel's unless you take Forbidden Lore. I don't know why you would only cast those two spells; other spells are just fantastic as well (especially Curse of Years this edition. It's just nasty, and a 'must be dispelled' spell hurting their magic phase).

Gaze of Nagash can hurt low T units such as High Elf swordmasters, shades, shooting units like Way Watchers or Glade Guard...
Wind of Undeath is good against weapon teams, or armies that use a lot of warmachines (empire, dwarfs, skaven) and adds a nice unit that can help hold up low CR units/models that don't have magical attacks (Hydra, steam tank, etc).
Curse of Years is really, really good against large units. If successfully cast, you should kill 1/6th of the unit. If they don't dispel it on their turn, it takes out 1/3 of the unit. Then on your turn, 1/2. Against large blocks that is 8th edition, its a great spell.

Forbidden Lore: death has amazing character sniping skills. In low pt games, taking out their General/BSB could be huge. It has limited range, but on a vamp that closes in, that shouldn't be too much of an issue.

IoN isn't that great this edition as it's difficult to spam. You need to throw 2 dice per casting to reliably cast it; for most caster lords, which are level 3 or 4, those same 2 dice can just as reliably cast VHD, Curse of Years, or Gaze of Nagash. It's good on Grave Guard; I just don't see the same value on Ghouls. Not when you can take out 5+ models in an enemy unit with Curse and cripple their magic phase, or raise an average of 3.5 models in your phase. It just doesn't compare the same way.

I think Forbidden Lore is a top ability in low point games.
 
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