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Please Help! Nasty Chaos Warriors @ 500pts

Anubis

Wight King
Joined
Dec 28, 2008
Messages
417
#1
greetings my fellow brothers & sisters of the night,

i'm looking for some help to deal with a very cheesey chaos warrior player in our local store's campaign. right now, we're just at 500pts armies, so my own choices are very limited!

the list i've been using with fairly solid success is;
vamp w/acolyte & LotD. flayed hauberk, black periapt
necro w/vanhel's danse
2x 14 skeletons w/champion & standard.
my basic tactic has been to find a hill, sit on it and raise a good sized hoard, and then use cunningly summoned zombies to open up my opponent's flanks for a counter-charge!


however, i really have no ideas how i'm going to handle one of the chaos warrior players sicne his list is fairly nasty;
sorcerer w/mark of tzeentch, book of secrets, conjoined haemonculus
10x chaos warriors w/sword & board, mark of nurgle, full command
20x marauders w/flails & light armour.

the big problem is that his list is set-up to spam gateway!:zombie: (the most rediculous spell since he can reliably cast, and he always seems to roll it up every game! lucky git...:swear: )
i'm not too worried about the marauders, since a large unit of skellies will simply outlast them and force an auto-break from fear. HOWEVER! that sorc is bunkered in the warrior unit, which at best even my vamp needs 4's to-hit them thanks to the nurgle mark... and those warriors will put an end to her fairly quickly too through sheer number of attacks!

also, how to deal with an army that seems to cast that stupid gateway every bloody turn?!!
i have visions of him getting the first turn, and being foolishly lucky enough to just one-shot the vamp's unit with a S11/12 spell and remove my general before i even get a friggin' turn!

so, any ideas about how to deal with this list???
thank-you in advance!
cheers!
 

Trevy the Great

Vampire Progenitor
True Blood
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
8,386
#2
You have a couple options to deal with a heavy magic list, but I've found that magic tends to be less effective in smaller games such as 500 points because the smaller size of the game makes it hard to protect your wizards.
You could try to go relatively magic defensive, but that is often too expensive to be effective. You would be looking at a Vampire general and a scroll-caddy Necromancer, but that doesn't usually pay back its points in such a small game because it has very few other abilities (besides some minor raising).
What I would suggest would be a dedicated hunter for the mage - something that might kill him, but will most likely just keep your opponent on their back foot, playing defensive.
I would consider a Wight King with the Sword of Kings on a Skeletal steed, which makes for a relatively fast, maneuverable character that can charge in and attack or challenge the Sorcerer and kill him before he casts his uber spell. Pair him with a casty vamp with Lord of the Dead and a Dispel Scroll for some raising and defensive options and that makes for a good build.
Another one I would consider would be a flying Vampire with a Great Weapon or the Sword of Kings, but while that is more maneuverable, its not as survivable.

That's usually how I deal with my opponent's uber characters, but I'd like to see other opinions. I would also closely watch your opponent's spell rolls and casting rolls. No one should roll a 6 every game!
 

Ophidicus

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
May 27, 2009
Messages
1,039
#3
First of all, he has to be LUCKY to get Infernal Gateway every game, let alone every turn. On average a Lv2 Sorcerer will get it once every 3 games, & needs to roll 14 on 3 dice to get it. If he ever conveniently 'forgets' a Lv2 can only use 3 dice to cast a spell, remind him politely. If he does it again, chuck his Sorcerer out of the window. That said, he can do a lot of damage with spells he's guaranteed to get, Flickering Fire is sickeningly powerful for its casting value & he can get other safe magic missiles from Death or Fire.

Second, he outnumbers you! Undead should never be outnumbered by Chaos, you need more bones on the ground. You need to be able to surround him & break him with Combat Res, that's how the Undead win games. Drop the Necromancer (& a couple of skeletons for the points) for Ghouls & use them to attack the Marauders. Flank them to cancel their rank bonus & that is one unit disposed of with little effort.

I'd also be tempted to drop the Flayed Hauberk on the Vampire, he has a far better defence in M6, he can outrun anything in the Chaos army so keep your units close enough together that he can jump from one bunker to another without presenting a target.

One problem with the above strategies is that you can't guarantee VDM, so if you're desperate for it swap the armour for Book of Arkhan. Not ideal, but competent enough, lure out his dispel dice with Raise Dead/Invoc spells before you use it.

If all else fails remember even a lightly armed Vampire Hero can shred a Marauder Champion or Sorcerer, don't be too scared to administer a kicking where a kicking is required, but choose your target wisely.
 
U

ulrik

Guest
#4
Theres something strange going on here...

I would say the Chaos Army isn't all that uber. He made his army entirely on getting the Gateway, and that is a VERY unreliable, rather foolish, tactic...

As already mentioned, first the chance of actually getting the spell is small, then ssecondly managing to cast it with only 3 dice is almost impossible (also remember that if a miscast is rolled by him, his Book of Secrets is virtually suicidal to carry!) and thirdly, him rolling eleven or twelve on the strength hits are just ridiculously small.

either he's cheating with the dices, or the luckiest dicer ever to live.

I would say the best solution is a Vampire with a single dispel scroll handy should the spell ever get off, or any other dangerous tzeench spell for that matter, and protect your vampire in a block of either ghouls or skeletons, that way EVEN IF the gateway hits you, a normal roll would just hit you with say seven hits of strength seven, and you're allowed armour saves. Sure, thats some dead, but hey, you can just raise them back!

then also include a second small unit of core to reach your minimum, and squeeze in a vargulf: it's going to tear that sorceror apart for sure!
 
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Messages
62
#5
Hmm interesting, since infernal gateway is a 15+ spell, so that guys rolling fine for sure.
Yes, I would recommend varghulf, but the 500pts just prevents you getting him in.
Try this one.
Since that chaos wizard not on disk:

vampire - lvl2, lord of the dead
vampire - lvl2, lord of the dead

11x skeletons - full cmd
10x skeletons - full cmd

thats 6pd vs 3dispel i think
hide the vampires behind the skellie blocks, and wait for it, or just move forward very slowly. Raise them to hell numbers, and summon zombies to the flank.
You also have +1 dispel dice, alltogether 4.
plus you will have 4 spells. (5 with ion). make sure, you change one of the rolled spells for raise dead. or try curse of years on warriors.

Good luck!
 

Anubis

Wight King
Joined
Dec 28, 2008
Messages
417
#6
thanks for the replies guys! it has given me a few ideas to brood upon!:konrad:

the reason why his gateway is so stupid;
a) he really is the world's luckiest dicer! of the 15 games he's played so far in the campaign, he's rolled up gateway 11 times!!!:scared: (and no, his dice aren't loaded, we actually checked...)

b) his sorc can reliably cast it, since he gets a +1 to his casting value for the MoT, plus he can add an additional +D3 from the haemonculous. (though he'll suffer from stupidity the next turn)
thus, the average roll on 3D6 is roughly 11, w/+1 from the mark, and +2 from the haemonculous = 14 on average.
but then, this guy is the 'blessed by luck' type who tends to roll a 12 or 13 right off the bat, meaning his spell is going to go off...


i might actually try the ghoul approch first... i could drop the necro & 14 skellies, which would then allow me a unit of 21 ghouls w/ghast! run them 7 wide to max their frontage, and that's a possible 15 poisoned attacks! (might even just go for the extra ghoul to stop him challenging?)
then i'd drop the hauberk from the vamp and give her the helm for the WS6 so i'll at least force him to hit me on 4's...

now, i don't want to run the vamp out on her own though, since gateway has a 24" range and has no targeting restrictions! (ie: he can cast it into a combat, the dirty little prat!)

if that fails, well, maybe i will just totally sacrifice my army theme for a game and go with;
vampire w/acolyte, avatar.
20 zombies
20 zombies
vargulf!!!
(and i still have 15 pts to play with, so more zombies?!)

i'll let you guys know how it goes...
cheers!
 

Ophidicus

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
May 27, 2009
Messages
1,039
#7
Gateway doesn't specify it can be cast into combat, so it can't (check WFB p.107). I'll admit I forgot to check on the Conjoined Homonculus but he still needs to roll min. 11 on 3d6 for the CH to be effective. A Chaos Sorcerer is Ld 8 so there's a significant risk of suffering Stupidity.

Your scenario 'b)' isn't 'reliably' casting a spell, it's just being a jammy git. We really can't help you with luck on a web forum though, you need to find the wise old woman in the swamp to sort that one out for you.
 

Capt Rubber Ducky

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Jun 9, 2009
Messages
1,549
#8
Remeber to remind him about his stupidity when he uses haemonculous, some people do find it easy to forget about it. He should fail that 28% of the time.

I make the chances of him rolling gateway 11 times out of 15 on with a lvl 2 (2 spells) is 0.0015% chance. Thats 15 out of a million chance...i.e somethings up.
 

Drakim

Skeleton
Joined
Apr 23, 2010
Messages
92
#9
Capt Rubber Ducky said:
Remeber to remind him about his stupidity when he uses haemonculous, some people do find it easy to forget about it. He should fail that 28% of the time.

I make the chances of him rolling gateway 11 times out of 15 on with a lvl 2 (2 spells) is 0.0015% chance. Thats 15 out of a million chance...i.e somethings up.
He didn't say he managed to cast it 11 out of 15 times. He said he casted it 11 times in 15 games I believe.
 
U

ulrik

Guest
#10
Also, remember that even if he rolls high on dices, he oght to roll two ones every now and then.

I just think it's really really odd with an army relying on that freaking spell to actually manage to get it off so often. There's something strange about it. It's statistically impossible for the sorceror to get that spell off and devastate the opponents that often.

I've met people who "rolls" dice very odd: they put the dice in their hand, and then instead of shaking it hysterically, the just flip the hand over, so the dice almost don't roll at all. And i belive that if you master such a technique, you might very well cheat yourself to very very "lucky" rolls.

I would go for:

vampire, sword of biting, talisman of protection
10 zombies
10 skeletons, full command, war banner.
vargulf

the vargulf rushes forward and kills the sorceror in close combat for sure, perhaps even surviving long enough to take a few warriros with him too. the two small units of core troops will, if acting together, be enough to beat the chaos infantry, I think. the magic items are not great, but all I could find for twenty points.
 

Capt Rubber Ducky

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Jun 9, 2009
Messages
1,549
#11
Drakim said:
Capt Rubber Ducky said:
Remeber to remind him about his stupidity when he uses haemonculous, some people do find it easy to forget about it. He should fail that 28% of the time.

I make the chances of him rolling gateway 11 times out of 15 on with a lvl 2 (2 spells) is 0.0015% chance. Thats 15 out of a million chance...i.e somethings up.
He didn't say he managed to cast it 11 out of 15 times. He said he casted it 11 times in 15 games I believe.
I read it as he rolled the 6 to get gateway while rolling for spells 11 games out of 15
 

Anubis

Wight King
Joined
Dec 28, 2008
Messages
417
#13
Capt Rubber Ducky said:
I read it as he rolled the 6 to get gateway while rolling for spells 11 games out of 15
yep, he's gotten the gateway spell in 11 of his 15 games!
and no, he's not cheating, as i do remind him about his stupidity. (which he has failed the test a couple of times).
this chaos players is one of those rare people who can't play worth crap, but get alot of wins due to sheer, blind luck... i acutally wouldn't put it past this guy to shit horseshoes instead of crap!

typically he loses alot as he has little understanding of actual game tactics and just blindly goes about moving his stuff and throwing his units away. but against the better players, he just gets ungodly lucky and trashes you! (and then brags endlessly about how badly he beat you, which is why i really don't want to lose to him!)

i'll have to face him on tuesday - no avoiding it! so at least i've got an extended weekend to try out and test some things...
mind you, worst comes to worst, within another week once we start playing 1000pts games, if this git is still being a prat, the daemon player & i are planning to tag-team his chaos warriors w/endless zombie hoards & blood crushers!:devil2:
 

Capt Rubber Ducky

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Jun 9, 2009
Messages
1,549
#14
There's not much you can do about luck like that, but killing his soceer quickly would pretty much remove most his tactical advantage. A vargulf should be able to squish his soceer, and it can't be challanged out by the champion like a vampire could.
 

Randar

Grave Guard
Joined
Feb 22, 2010
Messages
290
#15
i do not recommend your only infantry being zombies! take 1 nice block of skellies or ghouls toss your vamp in there Konrad or a home made fighting vamp at 500 points! use varghulf to kill his sorcery!:grave:xD war banner in with skeletons would be good too! 3 from ranks 1 from outnumber and war banner! and maybe your vamp will pop a few :vampire3:

combat resolution is our biggest weapon make them pay with snake-eyes or die !:tongue:
 

Abhorash.

Grave Guard
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Messages
282
#16
Hope For Miscasts and bring dispel scrolls is really all you can do. Three Corpsecarts with balefire seems to work for me, now he has to achieve an 18+ to get infernal Gateway.
 
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
85
#17
Abhorash. said:
Hope For Miscasts and bring dispel scrolls is really all you can do. Three Corpsecarts with balefire seems to work for me, now he has to achieve an 18+ to get infernal Gateway.
Three corpse carts at 500 points might really put a damper in his overall army composition don't you think?

-- Ravenfeld
 

Anubis

Wight King
Joined
Dec 28, 2008
Messages
417
#18
i figured i'd let you guys know how my game turned. it took a bit longer to get the game in, because this guy started ducking me! anyways, my list was;
2x vampires w/dark acolyte & lord of the dead.
2x 11 skellies w/champion & standard bearer.

his list;
sorc w/conjoined haemonculous, MoT, book of secrets
10 chaos warriors w/MoN & full command
10 chaos warriors w/full command.

i set-up my forest to cover my general's flank, and slaped the other unit right beside it. both units were on a hill for the added combat res, the plan was to raise alot, let the warriors hit my visible unit, and the flank the bastards with the other!
oh, and the lucky git rolled up gateway as one of his spells!:slapface:


the first couple of turns went fairly well. i failed about half my invo castings:zombie: still, i managed to get both units upto 20+ models, and even wethered a couple castings of infernal gateway!
the non-marked warrior unit was delt with by a couple castings of curse of years - got the unit down to 4 models. sadly my magic rolls were abyssmal all game long! i just coulding roll even a 3+ on a single dice to save my life...

by turn 4, i had the game in the bag! his general's unit had quite foolishly just run forwards at my much larger units, and i was set to make my double charge; 1 unit to the front, general's unit to the flank! all i needed was to get my turn and i would have an easy win - despite my opponent's antics;
- always 'forgetting' to roll his stupidity checks for using the haemonculous
- trying to move 14"+ a turn because wheeling is a forign concept to him?
- getting all pouty and sad panda because things wern't always going his way... (he even slamed a dice at the table after failing to dispel curse in his turn, and nearly hit my converted vampire!!!)

so, it came to his magic phase. he announced he was going to cast gateway. he rolled his 3 dice and got a 1, 6, 6... shit!
so he rolled for his number of hits & got 2. then he rolled for the strength and got, (yep, you guessed it), an 11!:swear:
so that took out my general's unit, since gatway doesn't need line 'o sight...

my remainging unit might have been able to pull off the win, but alas, even with 4 dice for casting invocations to really build my unit up, and then cast vanhel's for the re-rolls in combat, i got nothing off! (as in, my 2 invos both rolled 1's and my roll for vanhel's came up a 6!)
so he trashed my last unit, after gatwaying them AGAIN!!!

luckily, before he prance around and gloat, a few of my mates who'd been watching put him in his place, reminding him that he didn't actually beat me - gateway did! (one of my friends went so far as to tell him off completely, that he really sucks at the game and without his jerky spell, he'd never last past 2 turns...)
so, basically, i'll wait to play him untill it's a more 'fair' setting where i can bring enough units to wether a gateway or five! i'm thinking, 'uber casty lord w/helm, lots 'o skellies w/banners, blood knight bus...

anyways, thanks for the ideas guys! it's just too bad that my dice sucked so bad, and he got retardely lucky again...
cheers!
 
Joined
Dec 24, 2009
Messages
19
#19
It's too bad the game ended up being decided by a clutch IF like that.

A few things about the lists, though:

The list you gave for his army comes out to 540 pts and it only has a lvl 1 sorcerer, so he should only be throwing 2 dice at spells, right? if he had a lvl 2 sorcerer, it's 575 points, but your list is 506 points I think. Did he get extra points because of doing well in the campaign or something?
 
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