Politics and War

[ChaosJedi666]

Alright, so I've put this in the Beast Within just to be safe. The New Zealand media has not once said a word about this, and I was wondering if anyone else on here knew. Everyone I've spoken to over here about it, had not read about etc, and failed to understand what it meant. Suffice to say, every time I read it, I get the major shivers. The story is, basically, North Korea arming themselves to go to war with the South. Story is HERE I would love to hear everyone elses opinions on the matter, indeed if you'd heard about it before now.

EDIT : There are more follow up stories on the website. Search North Korea and it'll come up with them. At last count there were about 6 more. This is the first one.

 

[darknesseternal]

They reported about it over here. Well, about the sinking of the South Korean ship by a suspected North Korean sub at least.

To be completely honest, I have to admit that I switch off to this sort of thing alot of the time. And in this case, I did so again. That's not to say that it doesn't concern me, it concerns me greatly in terms of North Korea being a country where it seems clear that the inmates are running the asylum and have been doing so for many years. They are a rogue state, and it concerns me with their pursuit for nuclear weapon capability.

I just try to take some solace in the belief that the rest of the world (or the UN) will not let North Korea push things to the point where it comes to that. Of course it raises many questions about previous pre-emptive strikes/invasions (Iraq, Afghanistan etc) and their validity and what they have actually achieved, if anything. But I'd take that over allowing a rogue state with a lunatic in charge like North Korea reaching nuclear capability any day.

For the most part though to be honest, these sort of things I push to the back of my mind and don't spend time dwelling on them. I don't want to and I choose not to live my life in fear of nuclear holocaust. If it ever happens, well there will be nothing I will be able to do about it nor will I have any say it how it happens either.

 

[ChaosJedi666]

South Korea is trying to take this matter to the UN, but to do so they need China's support because China holds major power in the UN. North Korea *probably* won't invade the south unless it has China's backing. China doesn't know what to do. Keep the peace, or support their allies. The US has already jumped on the band wagon, condemning NK, so basically what happens next is up to China. If China supports NK, we're pretty much focked! China is basically a third of the worlds population. So, yeah this matter concerns me greatly. And, North Korea has Nuclear Weapons. So does China, USA, Russia, France, UK, Israel, the list goes on.

I don't live in fear of it, I find it all fascinating. Its just, it irks me as to people I know turn a blind eye, and claim that it won't ever affect them. No matter what happens. So, what does everyone else think of it?

 

[Order of the Blood Dragon]

Well NK isn't our only problem, Israel's non-sanctioned blockade of Gaza cam under fire because Israeli commandos killed and captured the crew of a ship that tried to get passed the blockade. They claimed they came under fire when they boarded, but even if that was true, they can't expect anything less when the captain (the only guy likely to have a gun) could have thought they were pirates or something else. Even then, they killed 9 of the crew, but it sounds unlikely for that many to have firearms.

What bugs me is that NK is considered a threat to peace blah blah blah. Same with Iran, Iraq under Saddam and Afghanistan under the Taliban. Yet Israel constantly threatens the peace by attacking Lebanon, etc, almost as though they want to provoke Iran into action. Yet western powers don't care about that, all they do is 'condemn' it while still providing them with the technology that makes them so powerful, that's the thing that irks me the most, if you're allied to the USA (or the USA itself) it seems you can do what you want because you're working with the biggest power in the world 'For Democracy'.

/rant

As for Nukes, I love how US and Russia have disarmed 1/3 of their nukes, now instead of having the firepower to destroy the world 30 times over, they can do it 20 times over. :mad2:

 

[Ophidicus]

This is the most troubling topic it is possible to consider. War is, in every respect (and there are many) the worst crime it is possible for a human being, or worse, many human beings can commit. The idea of nuclear war often makes me shed a tear.

Too much power in too few hands, the way the world will end, as it has come so close to doing before.

 

[Order of the Blood Dragon]

Yeah I think possession of a nuke is a crime beyond belief, the power to destroy an entire city and keep it that way for ages to come, in one man's hands. It's far too much power, the world needs to disarm before one mad general decides to launch one of those modern nukes. It was bad enough with the A Bomb being capable of destroying a city, but some of the most modern nukes could probably destroy a city 2 or 3 times the size of the area destroyed by an A Bomb.
The only way I can see us ever getting rid of them would be either in use against each other, or against some alien invasion (yes, seriously)
Let's just hope NK never resorts to that sort of madness...

 

[Johnny B]

Its a tricky situation. China needs to make it clear this kind of thing is not acceptable to NK if it wants to be taken seriously by the rest of the world; alas they like having their buffer zone, and I can well understand it considering history.

North Korea *probably* won't invade the south unless it has China's backing.

NK is extremely unlikely to do anything on its own; if they start something alone, they are screwed. Its all up to China; hopefully their new found love of trade and economic success will be a major factor in their decisions.

Of course it raises many questions about previous pre-emptive strikes/invasions (Iraq, Afghanistan etc) and their validity and what they have actually achieved, if anything.

A 'pre-emptive strike' on a country right on China's doorstep would be unwise. To put it mildly.

 

[Order of the Blood Dragon]

NK is extremely unlikely to do anything on its own; if they start something alone, they are screwed. Its all up to China; hopefully their new found love of trade and economic success will be a major factor in their decisions.

True, but maybe China would keep the same trade benefits, even if they supported NK, these benefits work two ways remember and alot of Western economies would be severely hampered if we simply stopped trading with them. Also, if they broke their friendship with NK (I dunno how close they are to NK) because they want good trade, then they could lose out in terms of foreign policy elsewhere.
Plus another thought, if they lost trade with us lot, then where would they go... would we really want to have China giving things such as weapons to some of the less stable countries.

 

[Danceman]

When I look at the NK/SK situation I think it is shameful we haven't acted against north korea sooner. Out of the two I feel the northern state is far too rooted in its theocracy(some would say necrocracy). Their citizens and military is starved and pathetic and it is just a damn shame across the board. NKs military ability is dwarfed compared to China or the west. It wouldn't be a war so much as it would be a total destruction of NKs defences within a few months, perhaps weeks.

The part which makes it so delicate is the NKs citizens themselves as there is no telling what the NKs goverment and 'god' ruler will do when pushed into a corner. This, I feel, is what is worth worrying about. NKs military abilities is no way a threat to us, or our way of living. Not yet anyways, but if we keep pushing this problematic situation ahead of us it might... If no threaten, heavy influence it.

 

[Onikaigo]

I'm in Okinawa. I work with the USAF. I work in a computer filled room that people with badges are allowed to enter, and those without are not and forcibly removed if found and detained for X hours and strenuously debriefed.


I know about this situation. I know quite a bit about it, and I really don't know what to expect. I haven't read the rest of the posts here, but honestly, from open source news casts....

It's all up to China. If China defends North Korea publicly, nothing will happen but sanctions.
If China denounces North Korea publicly, they're cut off from the world and most likely will go berserk and start shooting missiles.
If China does Nothing, Sanctions will hit and NK will be almost entirely dependant on China for just about everything.

Or, someone could get a happy trigger finger (Like what happened with the CHEONAN, in my opinion) and start the beginning of the NK annihilation. If they fire a missile in an open, undeniable act of war NK will be obliterated, that much I can safely say.

Here's hoping it doesn't come to that. =/ I hate War, especially this close to home.


I'll come through and read the rest of the posts once I get out of work today. And no, I can't answer any questions about anything that isn't on the news. :konrad:

 

[ChaosJedi666]

NK has, according to the media, some major trade agreements with China. Thus, China is caught between a rock and a hard place. They could do nothing, which the situation wouldn't really change much, more than likely go back to how it was. As Oni said, if they side with the US/SK alliance, then NK would probably go a bit nuts. If they support NK, then they'll lose alot of other support. Ie, trade agreements, political power, etc etc. However, Kim Jong Ill (NK Leader), is getting old. He has health problems. After this much effort, I can't see him just letting it end peacefully, not when he would only have a few more years left in him. And, a pre-emptive strike in this case would be really really bad. I'm picking that if the US makes the first move, before China publically makes up its mind, then China will side with NK. This is only my thoughts on it. And Oni, I'm actually surprised that you're allowed to comment on this topic. Even though, as you said, you can't state anything other than what the media has reported (whether factual or not), but that you are commenting. One would think it'd be easy to let something slip. Bit of a risk, but thanks for commenting anyways Either way, be interesting to see how it plays out. And yes, I am interested in both sides. (Politics in peace, and I love military history and topics of war...)

 

[Johnny B]

NKs military abilities is no way a threat to us, or our way of living.

Easy to say when we live in Europe. I have family in Japan, not so keen on war on their doorstep.

I'm picking that if the US makes the first move, before China publically makes up its mind, then China will side with NK.

I agree, I think China needs to be allowed to make the choice without prodding.

 

[Sanai]

I just find it to be shameful that North Korea has openly said that they are contemplating open war, and that I have not seen it on the australian news. According to a current affair and today tonight, its not newsworthy. I wish my parents would just turn off channel 9/7 news programs and turn on the sbs or bbc news.

 

[ChaosJedi666]

Sanai, its the same in NZ. We haven't heard anything about it. I fail to see how Sandra Bullock's cheating husband is a bigger headline than this...(Seriously, for like the past week that has been major news. o.o )

 

[Johnny B]

turn on the sbs or bbc news.

Sadly, there's not been much on the BBC either, as far as I have seen. Its all the usual politics stuff and a madman who shot some people in the Lake District.

 

[Order of the Blood Dragon]

Yeah it's strange how, besides the shootings in Cumbria and a few other incidents, the only news we seem to hear much about are celebrities. Maybe they just don't want us to worry about global affairs.

What Amy Winehouse is doing is obviously far more important.

 

[Onikaigo]

North Korea is simply rattling his sabre again, in my mind.

Looking at it from my relatively enlightened view, I doubt it will come to open warfare, with the following Caveats.

1) If some General/Admiral/Soldier on either side gets trigger happy, things could get ugly. While neither leader is going to give the direct order (In my mind) if someone decides to end an old grudge, it's going to get ugly.

2) If someone makes it look like one of the Koreas started it. Some terrorist could come through and do something to either side, and it'd be like throwing Gasoline on a spark.

3) If even further sanctions are imposed by the U.N, and China withdraws support. This would leave other south asian countries (Burma, Malaysia, Indonesia) as their only support. As their SOLE trading partners if Sanctions are imposed, those countries would hold near absolute power over NK, and I think KJI would simply go nuts.

So, I doubt it's going to go to War. For one, both China and Russia need political stability in the Korean peninsula for TRade/economic reasons. They'll both fight to put down any spark of conflict, and they'll both economically soothe any pains that might come along because even though they might not need Korea, they need peace.

The world superpowers understand that they are -not- ready for open War, and they won't let it go that far.


So no doomsaying! The Airman hath Spoken.

 

[Mr Nightwere]

I take a strange view towards war. I view it as what it is and what it represents for people involved in it.
Yes war is the end of life
Yes war is misery sadness destruction and death for both side despite victory or surrender
Yes it causes man to fight against his fellow and bread anger and hatred
Yes men grow wealthy from it grow powerful and exert control over others on their side and ours.
Yes it leads to poverty and disease
It tears nations apart and people rebel against their government and any who go to war with them

But Are we better off in war then in peace? its an idea that i have contemplated many times over and come to a strange possibility. If all continues peacefully and harmoniously, it will mean many people will grown old and happy take out pensions and retire and children will play and grow up to become what ever they want. but i see corruption n our peace, i see people trade lives for nothing, hate with out direction and women debase themselves in the excuse of fashion where once there was harsh discipline and ladies of stature in a time long dead there is now in place foolish Women dancing around in tight mini skirts and what can barely be called a shirt. I am drawn away from them and i feel as through i have become stagnant from them as through something is terribly wrong and i am unable to sway decision's people make. I read about people from different times how terrible they were and how corrupted they were but I also read of ladies and gentlemen of the theater where education was a standing point of nobility and class. If society continues down this path what will our future be in 50 years time will we be an over crowded planet of drones commanded by others to live one way.

That is why I question weather war is a necessity, weather man needs to be tested with pain and suffering to evolve.

Perhaps this will change I am only young and into the adult stage of my life, maybe i will see where the beauty in this world is and discover there is no need to despair, but sometimes I wonder how many people truly look to the sky and smile at its beauty the simplicity of cloud and the tranquility of the nights ocean sky weather we will guard nature if it means the cost of entertainment and profit.

My 2c o.o

 

[Onikaigo]

To answer you in part, Nightwere, War is a necessary part of Human survival on this planet.

A contradiction, you say? Look at the capitalization, hence the emphasis. The -Human- survival, not a race's survival.

Without war we would be a plague (Even more so) upon the face of the earth. We'd eat everything, and die of starvation and when nature revolts against our destructive rule.

So, war is not good, but a necessary evil. I fight for the things I believe in, so do my opponents. They might be fighting to feed their family, or they might be fighting because they believe in what their country is doing. Does that make us both right, or both wrong when we aim down our sights?

As you also stated, peace begins to Stagnate. After a long period of peace, the peoples involved begin to grow sluggish and dull, there's something inherently natural about war to our species. Without it, we will slowly wither and die without needing to point guns at one another. And besides, my idea of peace is entirely subjective; unless you go on the book definition of 'No War=Peace' then we might be able to agree. So, even in peace human beings disagree, and war is entirely over disagreements. Peace is corrupted, and leads to the debasing of morals and values.

Note: After World War II is when the American 'Good Boy' persona started dropping. The 'Fonz' took over, and slowly began getting worse and worse. Women had a sense of decency, and duty, and self worth. Men knew where their priorities lie: Any order of the three for God, Country, Family. Maybe even two values if you're an Atheist.

Today is all about self fulfillment, and this is where people like KJI and Hu Yuan get their kicks. If they, as dictators of their own nations, do not mete out what their people desire then they have a rebellion. If America, the ultimate consumer of Fossil Fuels and with the highest assumed standard of living does not provide health care, public transit, high quality school, safety, Etc etc etc then the Americans will overthrow the Gov't. It's what we do. (Sorry, you British people reading this! Still love you guys.)

So, each Gov't is bound by the rising majority of people who want instant gratification on everything, and are raised on the belief that they are entitled to that gratification simply by being born. It's an explosive situation, and I'm pretty sure I've rambled pretty far down the road of 'Is this really relevant'?

Suffice to say, I agree Nightwere!

I always make these replies drunk, damnit....

 

[ChaosJedi666]

I pretty much agree with the above two comments. War is absolutely necessary. Do we need it, maybe not now, but most definitely in a couple of years. Maybe even a few years earlier. It, oddly enough, enables nations to grow. Example, after World War 2 the USA grew in terms or economic, military, and political power. Same with Russia. It forces us to into a new era. At the moment, I'd have to say that technology wise, we haven't done much in the past few years. Nothing ground breaking, anyway. Sure, computer chips have gotten faster, phones are smaller, etc etc, but War tends to change it. Post-War anyway.

And so, I'm torn. I can't say that war is entirely bad, nor is it good. It's the enevitable that we must focus on what we do with it, rather than how to prevent it. You can NEVER prevent it. Stall it for a while, but thats as far as it goes. To me, its the same argument as Dictatorship. Similar, anyway. In theory I support it, but in practise it doesn't work. You'd need someone who only focuses on the positive growth of their country, so a selfless act, to ignore all major laws and civil rights, and just do it anyway. The ends justifies the means. However, I doubt that there is anyone capable of doing this, with no personal agenda.

So, thats my 2 cents for the day. Hopefully, after reading everything that has been said on this topic, and anything yet to be spoken, someone will walk away with a different outlook on Politics and War. Two sides of the same coin.

And, Mr Nightware, I think we're better of in War. Simply because we are never out of war. It may not be you, nor you're neighbour, but somewhere someone is at war. There's the US in Iraq, Afghanistan, the UK aswel. There's rioting constantly somewhere. A massive War is, whilst the thought is dreadful, necessary.

EDIT : Hope this make sense to someone. Wrote it just before I fell asleep...