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Reliance on Others

Grish

Liche
True Blood
#1
Hey,

Wanted to put this out there, see how other people in the world felt.

I just had lunch with the missus. She's been unhappy in her job, and I've been trying to push her towards obtaining her professional designation. It's a 3year+ process, and she'd have to have a job as well (at least partially) as a requirement to get her designation. Now, currently, she's being paid rather poorly in my estimation. She's capable of so much more but she's choosing a menial, boring job with no stress. She doesn't want to get her designation as she feels its too much stress.

This is what's getting under my skin. As part of the discussion, she brought up that an ex co-worker, got her designation when she was over 40, thus saying she's never too old. But the only reason her co-worker obtained it, was that she went through a divorce and was no longer making enough money to obtain her goals.

If she gets her designation, her salary will go up 225% for a starting wage, and will likely triple within a couple of years; guaranteed. She'll have her pick of the jobs, and could even start a business if she felt inclined. I won't say what field she's in, but it's a professional designation, so it's a guaranteed thing.

The crux of what upsets me is this: it seems a lot of women here purposely do not feel they have to work hard because their significant other is. It's putting the onus and responsibility on their other to fulfil their life dreams. The missus wants a beautiful house, with a dream kitchen. But it doesn't seem she wants to work for it. I'll be making the money, ensuring our future, and getting the things she wants. She wants to have kids and stay at home. Sigh. It's a lot of stress I feel to put our future on my shoulders. I don't feel its fair at all to have me working overtime, bearing the stress of failure in my profession when it's unstable, and she can get a completely stable, professional job in a couple years of work. If I was an Engineer or a Doctor, I think I'd be fine with this, because at that wage it really doesn't matter if she works or not. But I'm inbetween; not making a ton of cash, but certainly not poor.

So how do things work in other parts of the world? Is one person expected to do the heavy lifting? Is it usually the man? Do you both need to work a job to make ends meet or feel like you'll be in a comfortable place for retirement?
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
#2
I know exactly what you mean Grish, it is the same in my house, I do all the earning (just got offered a promotion as well, yay 50% pay increase!) whilst the missus is always going on about wanting a nice house etc. Don;t get me wrong, she is at home looking after our young daughter but you can she she doesn't really want to go to work once my daughter starts school.

I do feel sometimes under pressure, thinking I'm not providing enough, that I should be earning more money. But then I think I am doing my best and if that is not good enough it's tough. I have already said that she has to go to work part time. I do feel if both are capable of working, they both should do and to their full potential. It's not fair to lump one person with all the stress and responsibility. If you are a couple you are a partnership in all things.
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
#3
Do you feel you'll be in a comfortable place for retirement? Nothing is certain anymore. Companies don't give out pensions like they used to, and the government doesn't give out enough to let you live the way you want to. Are you comfortable DoN in securing your retirement by yourself?

What I want is a secure future where we can live comfortably in a house. Also, a chunk of our money (and a huge chunk of our time) goes to her family as they are incapable of taking care of themselves. They are immigrants that never bothered learning English in Canada (yay...). They earn very little and we take care of her little brother providing him clothing, entertainment, school supplies, school trips, personal trips, guidance, help with school work, etc, etc. They are his parents biologically only. So not only am I responsible for our future, but by extension, hers as well partly. If I weren't supporting her, she would have a real shitty life. But she doesn't want to put in the effort to make herself independent. Is really irking me today. I love her to death but... sigh.

Congrats on the raise! A 50% raise is huge. Ridiculous. Mine was about 8-10% last year. Did you get a much higher position within your company? I'm still working on becoming a lead here.. blah. Taking longer than I thought; this big company moves really slow.

Edit: What I'm getting at is some people just "go with the flow". I need to know how I'll be set, what the plan is, and how I'm doing on that path.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
#4
I got promoted to manager level. Going to be weird being the boss of the people I used to work with (one who I have worked closely with has the right grump with me. Pity as I always got on well with her), so hence the big pay increase. Plus the manager above me has already spoken to me about the fact that in 12-18 months he might be moving on and said it should be something I should work towards.

Retirement wise - no I don't feel comfortable at the moment. To be honest this has been my biggest break so maybe in a few more years I might say different. Would that be different with the missus putting in more effort - hell yes. Our quality of life and long term prospects can be so much better by her putting some effort it, hence the reason I talked and insisted. It's not fair to sow half the seeds and reap all the harvest, all the things she wants, I told her she has to help work towards. It took me a bloody long time but I got there in the end....I think xD

To be honest you have more patience than I. I would get quite aggravated by supporting others that should in reality be supporting themselves. I won't judge as I don't know the full situation, but if they move to another country, knowing they have children, they should have taken steps to ensure they can provide for themselves. I would have thought number 1 on that list would have learning the language. Has anyone ever questioned them on this?
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
#5
Well congrats on the break. Being a manager is fun, but can mean a lot of hours and tough decisions. Was really hard for me to remain friends with a lot of the people as I was partly responsible for their raises and didn't want to promote favouritism. Tough road to walk sometimes, but rewarding. Good luck to you!

Yes, its a complex crappy situation with the in-laws. Hopefully it makes me a better person in the end.
 

MasterSpark

Nostalgian
Staff member
True Blood
#6
My father and and his partner work pretty much equally to provide the required income. They (and myself, by extension) are leading a pretty average day-to-day life which means that they've quite a lot of money to move around with if a situation calls for it. This is the same with all the people I know, with both parents and housekeepers working to bring in the dough.
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
True Blood
#7
These are words coming from a guy who's messed up more relationships than I have fingers so, be forewarned.

I am not sure if I could take this stuff. Her family needs her help and you're doing the heavy lifting, just ain't right. It ain't right. You've got life too as I see it and if she's right for you she'll do it but yeah, these things are delicate matters(pride and all that as well) and I don't do delicate very well. Even so I get the feeling this could end up turning sour if you let it gnaw at you for too long. By the way you write it seems has gone on long enough as it is.

As for her family, well, don't want to say too much but that just seems lazy. Like... "Oh well, he's giving us money". They might need to hear a bit of an ultimatum here like "start making some effort" because if they're not why should you? Sounds very ungrateful to me. Very.
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
#8
Yes, it is lazy. It's also a culture thing; in their culture YOU are the bad person if you don't give money to the parents. Its the way it is; I can't say their culture is wrong.

If it wasn't for her being such a great person I would have left a long time ago. I'm not getting further ahead financially by being here, that's for sure. And really, it's mainly her time that gets eaten up. Usually 25-30 hours of her time per week helping them out. For me, its about 5 or so, but another 5 because I'm doing all the cooking/cleaning/chores in our lives because she's too busy in hers. Over the past year though, it's eaten up countless hours as we setup a business for them. Countless hours dealing with contractors, insurance, etc.

Her parents have very little education (grade 6 and 8 I believe) so even things done in their language they struggle with. It's tough though. I would be much happier if they would try to learn the language and become independent but it's not going to happen. They're fairly old as it is, and if it hasn't happened in 18 years I doubt it'll happen in the next few years. And the miss; she can help them or she can let them fail. And who can let loved ones just fail when you could save them? So it's a sticky situation. They can't suddenly become smart. But yeah; they sure as hell could try harder.

We've been together years so its not something I'd throw away. But it annoys the hell out of me that the burden of money is on me. Another aspect to consider is her parents have always made tiny bits of money, so what we're making is way beyond that. I come from a well off family, so I'm below where I want to be. She doesn't even fathom retirement.

I'm reasonable; very reasonable. I've even let them borrow more than 20k from me. But I gotta draw the line somewhere.

Edit: To be clear, I'm just bitching/venting. I can handle my own life and don't need solutions... but it is nice to see other people's viewpoints, and how the burden of success is distributed amongst others.
 

Master Vampire

Master Necromancer
True Blood
#9
I kind of stumbled onto this topic even being away most of the time, but I felt like replying. I fully agree with danceman on this one. I want to add something about giving money to my family, by marriage or by blood.

From my own parents, I have always learned to loan money, never to give it. It just doesn't help in any way. First of all, they will think you can help them out whenever they want. Secondly, they get lazy. Thirdly, they think your relationship is based on it and that's just wrong.

And lastly and probably more important, you worked for the money! It belongs to you and not to some guy who's unemployed and thinks he can control you.

Mind you, this is the standard I use for my own family. For family I have by marriage I probably have even higher standards. I probably won't loan more than $100-200...

Even so, if I loan any money, I only do it if I get the idea that I can 1) get it back soon (within 1-2 months), 2) it is money suited for something important (and not that nice suit he saw in the store yesterday) and 3) I get the idea that the person wants to improve his way of living, either by making more money or changing habits to save money.

If that ain't so, the person doesn't get any money from me. And if I tell them I won't give money because I don't see them fit my 3 rules, I'm done with it. Convincing me won't help and that will cause me to never loan them money again.

It still breaks my heart that at least 2 of my brothers are incapable currently to maintain healthy standards when it comes to saving money. I can only help them with advice, but they probably won't listen because I'm the youngest. o_o
 

Danceman

The Devil in Pale Moonlight
True Blood
#10
Yeah, I'm not telling, just saying. Though I guess it is always easier to "just saying" when you're barely a spectator or never experienced anything like it.
 
#11
Money can ruin the best of relationships. It will eat at you and blacken your heart if you let it fester.
On a lighter note it was the other way around for me. I was in an easy job with my wife earning a good wage and carrying me. But i got bored in my job as it had no challenges so i took the plunge and went for an engineering apprenticeship. And now i earn more than her and we have a very comfortable life. But I had to take that plunge, get off my comfortable and lazy ass, push myself and put a couple of hard poor years in. And if she wants all that nice stuff she will have to do the same.
Families are funny things though and are hard to handle, i have little advice there except your culture has a place too. And my culture says you don't mooch of my hard work forever.
And i am with Danceman; that it is easy to look in from the outside. It is ultimatly your life and your decision.
 
#12
It is a very cultural topic.

It wasn't so long ago that when you moved out of your parents homes, it would be to a little further down the street, or in some cultures building a dwelling onto the pre-existing family home.

Family supported family, and generally there was a family income, as opposed to everyone clutching what they earned to their chest like Gollum and the One Ring. Not saying those here are like that, the posts i've seen here indicate generocity, but our culture in my opinion is getting warped.

When the econemy crashed so many people lost everything. Many had to move back in with family, and haven't since been able to move back out. Others ended up living in tents, because they had nowhere to turn.

These days family has come to mean 'dead weight' for most people. Something to be cast off as they set out to 'make/live their own life'. That in itself raises questions, such as who will look after the parents when they reach their infirm years, if the children won't take responsability? Will those same children be depressed when they are old, infirm, and abandoned to a cold and unfeeling care system - if they live in a country lucky enough to even have one.

Some people are sick, be it in body or mind. Do we leave them in the dust, because we are going places? People have become very cold. On TV you see someone walk past a homeless person, refusing even a few coins, desite the fact they are probobly going to thoughtlessly going to make a double-digit purchase without thinking twice about the cost at somepoint that week. And people nod, approving, never once pondering that some day that could be their mother, their son, or even them if they are struck with illness or misfortune and alone.

Family is about reliance, in its own way. Its a network of people who watch out for eachother, bound by blood, and hopefully love. Parents pass on home and hearth, raising their children, and then those children have their own kids, and watch over their parents in their later years, and the cycle goes around like that. Generally whatever property was in the family would pass down from generation, buisnesses too, and it kept even the sickly in the family cared for aswell as the strong.

The collapse of the old family values is one of the reasons the west is dying, and the middle east and east are still thriving. That muslim family with six kids, a couple of aunts and uncles, all living in the same street if not the same house? The corner shop they have will earn what it needs for them to buy more property, then handed over to a brother or cousin while they man that new shop.

In the west people are so very proud of their 'independence'. Of going it alone. Its not even seen as good to be reliant on a spouse, who is supposed to be a partner, and even your other (missing) half depending on culture. Yet it makes everything around them so fragile, as so many learned.

Despite what I wrote above, i'm actually british born and raised, and pale as a scotsman. However, its not rocket science to see weaknesses in our society and the direction we are pushed by the media, or the sociatal effects they so recently had.

My family has always relied on eachother, and while we have never been wealthy, we have made sure that none of us have starved either. My great grandparents were cared for until they died in their late eighties, my grandmother lives 20 minutes away, and we are close We have out ups and downs, but generally we are happy.

My father however is the perfect example. Enjoying his 'freedom' he barely contacted me for years, berating me as an adolescesent for not calling him, and has gone from being on a £100k a year job, to trying to scrape together an early retirement in europe with the less than years pay he actualy managed to save up. I find it somewhat sad, because he is m father and I love him, but its like watching a train wreck. He's still chasing the 'Get a good job, drop all the bagage, and retire early' train and its slowly destroying him.

I won't try and comment on any of the above situations, because its not my place, nor are (no offense) biased and one-sided in posts of a few paragraphs going to be a true indicator of the full scope of person situations built over months and years. Interesting though. What I do feel is hopefully clearly expressed; for however much the western culture has exploded around the world and become popular, the west really could use the middle eastern and eastern family values right about now. 'Reliance' and 'Dependance' also needs to stop being dirty words.

I suppose I should probobly include something about opinion in there somewhere, but I hold these beliefs almost as close to my heart as my faith in Christ.
 

Chaos_Born

Master Necromancer
True Blood
#13
Umm, Alixen...You're performing a two year threadomancy here. How you even found the thread to drag up is beyond me, but please look at the age of a thread before you post in it. If it's old, let it die
 

Lynks

Lord of RAW
Staff member
#14
Not that the effort you've gone to for this post isn't appreciated, it's just when something is so very old the conversation doesn't really hold relevance anymore. at 2 years ago, I'm quite sure the majority forgot that this thread even existed.

You can find the date a post was submitted on the bottom left corner of the post, beneath the person's zombie count.
 
#15
Oopsie, I never even noticed, as it seemed quite close to the top - or simply caut my interest. I'm also posting off a tablet, and dates arn't as clearly labelled as the 'full' forum. All it says outside the thread is who the last poster was, not the date. Inside, I believe, the date is white writing on a light grey background. Again, apologies, i'll go see if I can change the format on a tablet to something easier on the eyes and informative.
 

Mello

Hasn't left TVC for the rest of the forum
True Blood
#16
Heck even master vampire posted here :tongue: On my phone I use the classic CN theme, it's much easier to read.
 

Grish

Liche
True Blood
#17
Still a relevant topic, unless people no longer rely on each other.

Threadomancy isn't about a date, it's about relevancy.
 
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