Legion of Nagash Rules development thread: The Body and Spirit of Nagash

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Avaris

Black Knight
Aug 15, 2007
352
The Shire (yes, really)
Zombies
203
Right, to get things moving again we should start considering each unit in the confirmed army list in turn and attempt to agree on the exact rules to use, before opening it to a poll and adding it to the list.

First things first, the big bad guy himself; Nagash. It is pretty much agreed at this stage that the rules will be based on my version (see the things that are certain thread), that of the Body and Spirit, though with potentially different points cost to what I decided on.

The rules as they currently stand are thus (my comments from the other thread removed)

----------------------------------------

Nagash
Nagash is a Lord choice and must be the army general. The basic special character costs 700 points, but additional Nagashi can be recruited for 18 points each.

The Nagash special character consists of two models; the Spirit and the Body, which deploy together but can operate independently during the game.

The Body
ai29.photobucket.com_albums_c299_groinsmasterd_th_fdc7e21b.webp
The withered form of the Master of Necromancers sits upon his throne, borne aloft by his most loyal servants; the Nagashi. They serve him in death as they did in life, and will forever serve their lord.
The unit consists of 1 Body of Nagash model and 6 Nagashi. Additional Nagashi can be purchased at a cost of 18 pts per model
Code:
.                    M  Ws  Bs  S  T  W  I  A  Ld
The Body of Nagash   4  3   3   4  4  6  3  4  9
Nagashi              4  3   3   4  4  1  3  1  9

Equipment: The Nagashi carry Hand weapons, shields and wear Gromril armour
Special Rules: Killing Blow, undead. The Body of Nagash has unit strength 6, and is placed in the centre of the front rank like a standard bearer or musician. It counts as both a standard (though it can never be dropped or captured) and a musician. So long as rank and file Nagashi survive it can suffer no wounds; another Nagashi steps up in place of the fallen warrior. It has a 3+ armour save, increased to 2+ in close combat. The Body also counts as the army general for the purposes of crumbling.

The Spirit
Something like this model wise
Nagash's many deaths have resulted in his spirit being only loosely bound to his mortal shell, and while the Nagashi guard his husk his consciousness is free to roam the field of battle, revelling in the slaughter.
The unit consists of 1 Spirit of Nagash model. It is an independent character, and may not join any unit except for the Nagashi (in which instance the model is removed from play, see below).
Code:
.                          M  Ws  Bs  S  T  W  I  A  Ld
The Spirit of Nagash       4  3   3   3  4  3  3  1  9

Equipment: hand Weapon
Magic: Nagash is a lvl 4 wizard, and knows all the spells from the lore of Nagash
Special Rules:
Master of Necromancy. Nagash was the first necromancer, and even following the loss of his books has knowledge no other man does. Master of Necromancy allows Nagash to know all 6 spells in the lore of Nagash at once.
Spirit form. In his spirit form, Nagash is etheral, can fly, has a 4+ ward save and causes terror.
Being of Power. Nagash is saturated with magic, and generates an extra power dice and dispel dice above the norm.

The Body and the Spirit combined
When his mortal shell is threatened, the Spirit of Nagash returns to his body, using his magic to protect himself
At the start of any of his magic phases, the Spirit of Nagash can return to his body. He cannot cast spells on the turn he does so, and the Spirit model is removed from play. So long as the spirit remains in the body, the Nagashi gain a 5+ ward save and cause terror. On subsequent turns Nagash can cast spells again, but is restricted to the line of sight provided from the unit. He may leave the body during any of his movement phases.
IMPORTANT: Should the body of Nagash ever be destroyed, the Spirit is removed from play.

-------------------------------

It is probably only the points cost that needs agreeing on, but feel free to nitpick at will. For reference, here is Darkhands suggested pricing;
the grail relique is 118 points with 6 pilgrims (worth about 7 pts each) so i would say the body x is 76pts. I wouldn pay anything for the general ability as it isnt actually better than the normal one.
This would work out quite nicely making the body 310pts (could easily be 300/320 if people think that good)

The fixed spell list for the spirit would be 30pts (HE seer honour), the extra level might be worth about 20pts. With its high casting value i wouldnt say its reaslly worth any more - this would mean a 490 pts spirit.

Totalling quite nicely an 800pts Nagash. Again people might think this is too hard - but he's cheaper and better than Zacharius so go figure.
 
Could it be considered that killing the spirit means that you simply have to summon it again next time like they do with the Green Knight? This means that there is going to be a disadvantage to having the spirit as well as an advantage to actually hunting it...
 
I remember that these rules can't be final until we finalise the nagashi.I dont think nagash should have four str4 attacks if he is a withered shell that is a bit strong i think it should be 1 str3 and then decrease the points alittle and i also think that it should be a few more points 750would do it 800 is to much.Resummoning the spirit is a good idea which would increase the points to 780 resummoning is quite useful and it would take magic phase.My 3cents(snap again).
 
Voltaire said:
Could it be considered that killing the spirit means that you simply have to summon it again next time like they do with the Green Knight? This means that there is going to be a disadvantage to having the spirit as well as an advantage to actually hunting it...

Isn't there already the advantage that hunting it removes it completly from play?
Possible summoning rules;
If the spirit of Nagash is killed, you may attempt to resummon it from the body at the start of each of your turns. The spirit is succesfully summoned on a roll of 5+, and is redeployed in the same manner as a the start of the game.


Arion said:
I remember that these rules can't be final until we finalise the nagashi.I dont think nagash should have four str4 attacks if he is a withered shell that is a bit strong i think it should be 1 str3
I think you've slightly got the wrong end of the stick here. The 4 str4 attacks represent the Nagashi that are carrying the body, in the same way as the old Slann mage Priest or the bretonnian relique works. Also, the Nagashi here are different to those in the army list; these ones are the elite undead guard of Nagash, the others are their living descendents.

also think that it should be a few more points 750would do it 800 is to much.Resummoning the spirit is a good idea which would increase the points to 780 resummoning is quite useful and it would take magic phase.
750 for the current ruleset seems about right, though if we include summoning I'd be inclined to up it to 800. I think summoning should be at the start of your turn, rather than magic phase, as you surely want to be able to use it on the turn it is resummoned, rather than it sitting around seeming like a target for a turn...
 
You say standard. Do you mean that or Battle Standard? Points cost should be he very last thing, after all the abilities have been defined.

I like the resummoning idea.

I think the spirit in the body should gain much more power than Terror and a 5+ ward.

I also think that the spirit is forced back into the body when the body is brought down to its last wound and cannot leave as long as Nagash's body has less than half it's wounds.

Nagash is a very important charater to the WHFB world. I think he needs a rule like Kroak that if the body is ever destroyed, the best the army can do is draw. Sure we have crumble, but some players would sacrifice Nagash to win in the last turn of the game, knowing that crumble would not be so bad.
 
It is my own belief that resummoning the spirit should have the effect of causing the spirit to act like it has pursued a unit off a table and come back into play in that it cannot declare charges etc.
 
To get things moving again, I'm putting this to the vote. If everyone is happy with the current version (sans resummoning), it can be added to the list. If you are not happy, vote no, and suggest how to improve it. The poll will last one week.
 
The legion pages are a bit out dated...
I like the idea of nagash's spirit being summoned again and again, but it should start off easier and then become harder gradually i.e. Should start out on a 3+ and every time he is banished it should be -1 to summon his spirit back by itself.
For nagash being in his body, he should give the unit he is in regeneration, as he is raising them up as fast as they die. Counting as the battle standard and the general would fit for fluff reasons. All in all, very good work!

Maybe he should gain an extra 2 power dice, and 1 extra dispell dice because he was suppost to be one of the greatest mages ever to have lived (even if its not really life anymore...) He should also have an extra spell like drain magic or something similar.

Do the nagashi count as wights? (i.e. do they get killing blow?) It would fit very well with fluff reasons, because the closer you are to nagash, the more powerful you become. And if he dies, all living units should gain frenzy that they can never lose.They're the only things that I would add to him.
 
The Dark Lord Mr Fluffy said:
The legion pages are a bit out dated...
Hence why its good that you're starting discussion on them again.

I like the idea of nagash's spirit being summoned again and again, but it should start off easier and then become harder gradually i.e. Should start out on a 3+ and every time he is banished it should be -1 to summon his spirit back by itself.
This has been discussed, but is the sort of thing that is difficult to make rules for and put a price on. If you can suggest a precise wording and price, go ahead, and we can consider it.

For nagash being in his body, he should give the unit he is in regeneration, as he is raising them up as fast as they die. Counting as the battle standard and the general would fit for fluff reasons. All in all, very good work!
It essentially does, though doesn't get the Bsb bonuses I don't think. As for regeneration... these guys already get a 2+ save and a 5+ ward when he is in the body, that should be quite enough!

Maybe he should gain an extra 2 power dice, and 1 extra dispell dice because he was suppost to be one of the greatest mages ever to have lived (even if its not really life anymore...) He should also have an extra spell like drain magic or something similar.
Getting a single extra dice on each should be plenty... any more feels like power for powers sake. Also, he does get 6 spells already; thats quite enough!

Do the nagashi count as wights? (i.e. do they get killing blow?) It would fit very well with fluff reasons, because the closer you are to nagash, the more powerful you become. And if he dies, all living units should gain frenzy that they can never lose.They're the only things that I would add to him.
Yep, they have killing blow. The frenzy idea is interesting...
 
I'm abit confused as to why Nagash has been reduced to a withered husk?
The last I read in the Undead book (by far the best fluff wise compared to the later released VC & TK) Nagash's body was still stong and he could use it, indeed it states in one of the fluff stories of him standing up crushing the bones of skeletons beneath him.

Whilst I think these rules are good it seems to have reduced him to another Lord Kroak. Nasah may not be as powerful as he once was due to him dying a few times & loosing his crown & claw, but I still think him as one of the most powerful mages of all time, basically a god at he height of his power and still extremely powerful now.
For example even when he had died once he still came back and managed to wound Sigmar in a fight, (if he has his full power he would have wiped the floor with him, how different Warhammer would be then)
Personally I still like the idea of the 15 ft monstrosity striding foward when blazing with power.
In regards to him actually being used Nagash's greatest scheme was to convince 95% of the warhammer world he no longer exists, he uses unknowing pawns (Manfredd, Henrich) and well as knowing ones (The cult of Nagash) to exact his plans (I think his main plans at the moment are getting his crown & claw back to attempt to get his full power so he can control the TK) so in regrards to this I think he should be limited in his use, I would say cannot be included in an army of smaller than 4000 or maybe 5000.

Anyway just my thoughts.
 
My reasoning in this case was that it would be an interesting slant on the character. I never liked the idea of the 15 foot tall version, and there is little information on what happened to Nagash after his defeat by Sigmar. It seems reasonable to perhaps assume that the repeated death of his physical body would have had some effect.
Also, the Legion of Nagash should have Nagash as a useable character. Useable implies possible to take in 2000 pts, not having to mass 4000 or 5000.
 
Don't get me wrong it is an interesting idea I would just imagine that Nagash would definatley have the power to keep his body going especially if her can pull it back together into form after it was burnt by warpfire into little sooty particles.I don't know if you have read the old Undead book but the fluff on Nagash there is very detailed polus it was the picture in thier that really hooked me towering over the undead, his staff of power sweeping through the air whilst he read from one of his books.
 
Nagash is repeadetly stated as having to bring the many pieces of his existence back together over gradual time inside the Black Pyramid. To have to do that everytime you die in battle is horrendous.

The Warhammer World is a very different place from when Nagash took over Khemri. He would have to contend with the likes of Teclis and Archaon in his weakened state and the only way to regain power would involve finding his claw (location unknown) and a full scale invasion of the Empire to unlock one of their magical vaults to get the Crown - something which a horde of Chaos and an Orc Waagh couldn't achieve during the Storm of Chaos. Mannfred, Nagashs pawn, turned back at Middenheim, surely thats a sign that the Great Necromancer knows he is in a bit of trouble!

The Elfs know of Nagash existence so it being a conspiracy is a bit moot and the Vampires known about his existence because of the Master Vampires still being alive. Nagash using a 'host' and his ethereal form makes perfect sense in the scope of a grand plan of self preservation and the building of strength.
 
OK, time to bump this up.

I'll be blunt - I don't really like this version, however out of respect for those that put in work before us, I think (unfortunately :() we should try and make it useable.

Now the main thing is that we need to have a look over the rules. Looking at Arkhan's for example, Nagash is not nearly as useful, so a rewrite is necessary

So a couple of things we need to look at before drawing up the rules:

Firstly I think the bearers should be undead. Nagash would not trust the living to carry him, at least the dead are directly under his control.

His magic needs to be much stronger. He is the creator of Necromancy, and with the above rules some vamps (mannfred) are better casters which is just plain wrong. I think he should also bear the ninth Book of Nagash, which will give him so special powers.............would it be too over power for it to combine the effects of all the other books of Nagash?
 
No I think it make perfect sense to have him being that powerful. He wrote the books so letting him have the effects of all seems fair. Also, I believe we should give him one of the following:
Some kind of protection from miscasts eg, he doesnt have to role on the chart if he does miscast.
Or perhaps make enemy spellcasters suffer for their miscasts eg, Any wizards who role a double when casting spells suffer a miscast. And if they role a double 1, they immidietly transform into a skeleton.
This is to try and represent his awesome powers of Necromancy and Magic in general. We cant really bump his magic casting ability much more, so this is all I can really think of.
 
Well with the 9th book combining the effects of 1-8, that already gives him a huge boost.

I also agree with the miscast idea. I would suggest in Nagash roles a miscast, the magic phase immediately ends but he does not have roll on the miscast table.
I think the Body should also have the Armour of Nagash - the same amour he had back in the 4th edition. 2+ armour save / 4+ ward, nice and simple.

How do those ideas look?
 
The thing is we shouldn't entirely remove all the negative effects of a miscast. I do want to create a powerful character as Nagash should rightly be, but I don't think we should remove anything negative that can happen to him

The ending the magic phase seems to best way to remove the chance of him being killed outright, whilst still providing a balancing effect.
 
Ok so been giving this some more thought. Firstly I think the Body of Nagash should be borne into battle by the Pinnacle Guard - makes most sense.

I'll leave stats for a minute so....

Body of Nagash
Must be carried into battle by minimum of 16x Pinnacle Guard. The body must be placed in the centre and counts as the number of models as he displaces for rank purposes.
Counts as a BSB and musician for said unit.
Can not be challenged and will only ever move into a fighting rank if there are not enough Pinnacle Guard to create ranks.
If killed the Spirit of Nagash us automatically destroyed, and regardless of VP the Legion can only achieve Minor Loss at best.
Wears Armour of Nagash
Carries the Ninth Book of Nagash (Benefits from the effects on Books 2, 4, 5)

Spirit of Nagash
Can operate is independent unit
Cannot join any friendly units
Ethereal
Benefits from effects on Books 1, 3, 6, 7, 8 from the Book of Nagash the body carries
Causes Terror
Fly
5+ ward
If reduced to one wound or killed is forced back into the Body of Nagash.

Body and Spirit of Nagash Combined
Increased stats (can actually fight)
May move to fighting rank if desired - however if fighting may not cast as using magic to sustain body.
Causes Terror
Wears Armour of Nagash
Carries Ninth Book of Nagash
Counts as a BSB and musician for said unit.
Wields Mortis - Great Blade of Death


Any way there are some ideas - what do you think?
 

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