Legion of Nagash Rules development thread: The Body and Spirit of Nagash

[Crovax Accendant Evincar]

Your right Diciple,it would be a shame to waste all the effort that has been put into creating him,alltho new to the site spent ages reading the posts on Nagash and his army,must say youve all done a well good job,always tht it was a shame that nagash was pushed out of the limelight after 4th ed,some od the stuff youve created is well cool might have to see if my friend willl let me use the army Fielding two would be an intresting idea,maybe one from the present and one how he used to be,dunno lol

 

[Marcus Von Drac]

Yeah that would work. Give him 2 profiles, 1 as he is now, aka the rules we currently have, and another as he was at the hight of his power, aka a tweaked 4th edition version.

 

[Sir Justin the Damned]

yer makes sense as the game isn't just meant to be played in the current era of the the warhammer world (although in fairness other players would moan that they should then be able to use their best characters e.g. anarion, sigmar etc) as im guessing nagash at his peak would be solid

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Sorry but I have to disagree. First off all the 4th edition Nagash is not him at his peak, no where near. Nagash was near as dammit a god at his peak, and would be unplayable. Both versions are from the same time frame, at the same power level, it is just that Avaris wanted to do his own unique spin on Nagash. There is actually fluff in the 4th edition book that shows Nagash in the present can still walk etc.

If we start making another version, we will just have people questioning our fluff, can he walk? Can't he? Etc. There is no way we can make an earlier version of Nagash playable, as his stats would be off the record.

 

[Crovax Accendant Evincar]

Maybe not a version before 4th ed,i dint mean at his PEAK (as in godlyness ) i meant like the 4th ed version which is after those sneaky skaven, and a so called man-god smashed his head in which i always thought was unfair lol (come on sigmar kills orcs not gods he isnt no GD slaying Anaerion lol).Would just be nice to see him how he was in 4th ed,i agree tho i really like the idea of his "husk" of a body being venerated and carried into battle,while his spirit wreaks magical havok amongst any who would defy death itself would like both tho because the image of him being surrounded by his creations wieling his staff and his blade wreathed in power still appeals to me,hes the god of undeath,i mean he willed himself back to life,i think he would be cautious but hes cheated death 3 times which would make him slghtly arrogant i think,he should be able to slaughter things in CC and feed of there death to make him stronger in magic.....sorry kinda love the 4th ed lol

 

[Sir Justin the Damned]

hmmm i think if their were too many versions of nagash it would get rather confusing and personally think the "body and soul" version being proposed at the moment is not only a good idea but also have some good rules to go with it

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I too love the 4th edition. It's the edition I started in, and Nagash has always been my favourite (hence the name). However as Justin said, I think we should stick with one version.

 

[Avaris]

First off, I must admit I never played 4th ed, which seems to be what a lot of people desire for Nagash. As a result, I don't have much of an idea of what Nagash is/was capable of, beyond being essentially a god-king. For me, Nagash was always a background figure, which was part of the reason behind the legion project being started in the first place.

My single desire behind creating this version of Nagash was to make it so that players did not have to use the old version of the model. For starters, I imagine it is difficult to get hold of now, and my personal opinion is that it is hideous. Without knowing the background reasons behind him being a giant skeleton it just seemed stupid to me.

As pretty much everyone has said, we should stick with a single version. The queston is, which is the right version? To try to determine this, we need to consider the points in favour of each, which I have tried to do below. Obviously this is biased in favour of mine, so make your own decision.

'Old' style Nagash
- Allows players to use their old Nagash models. Woo. [/end sarcasm]
- More keeping with established background
- Means Nagash is as players expect him to be

'New' style Nagash
- Allows players to convert their own models to match their vision of Nagash
- Allows power to be limited. Nagash at god-king level would be very difficult to balance now that 'herohammer' is less prevelent. The game used to be full of massive gribblies like him, now there are very few.
- Allows the legion background to be developed as its creators desire. By giving Nagash a new form, it allowsmore freedom to create other new stuff, which I feel should be an important part of this project.
- Explains why Nagash has not been heard from for so long. In current timeline he is not actually active, yet if he was at full strength he would surely act. An attack by him at full strength would be a major event in the fluff, which unfortunately the legion project is unable to introduce. Therefore it should be low impact.
-Creates a new and interesting playing style and abilities
- Keeps with gw policy that mages should not also be warriors.

There's probably more, but I'm tired...

Avaris

 

[Sir Justin the Damned]

it is a tricky problem avaris!
personally i thiknk the new option opens up more possibilities for conversions etc and is a very unique special character.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

'Old' style Nagash
- Allows players to use their old Nagash models. Woo. [/end sarcasm]
- More keeping with established background
- Means Nagash is as players expect him to be

'New' style Nagash
- Allows players to convert their own models to match their vision of Nagash
- Allows power to be limited. Nagash at god-king level would be very difficult to balance now that 'herohammer' is less prevelent. The game used to be full of massive gribblies like him, now there are very few.
- Allows the legion background to be developed as its creators desire. By giving Nagash a new form, it allowsmore freedom to create other new stuff, which I feel should be an important part of this project.
- Explains why Nagash has not been heard from for so long. In current timeline he is not actually active, yet if he was at full strength he would surely act. An attack by him at full strength would be a major event in the fluff, which unfortunately the legion project is unable to introduce. Therefore it should be low impact.
-Creates a new and interesting playing style and abilities
- Keeps with gw policy that mages should not also be warriors.

There's probably more, but I'm tired...

Avaris

A couple of notes Avaris. Firstly I am very surprised you have not read the most indepth fluff on Nagash from the 4th edition. This may explain your different view on him.

Firstly the comment about not being heard from him for some time / not at full power - After Nagash came back for the second time he was a shadow of his former self (as in around Teclis level of power - gives you an idea of how powerful he was before). He realised there was powers in the world that could stop him whilst he was this weak, and so resolved to stay in the background plotting and planning his return. His main objectives are to regain his claw and crown, as currently his soul his split among the three items and thus he cannot be regain his full power without being 'whole again'. A notable piece of fluff showed him striding off his throne, crunching bones underfoot as he went to make plans.

So now you know why you have not heard much about Nagash, though most people accept both Kemmler and Mannfred are pawns of Nagash, one of the reasons why Mannfred is always trying to defeat Altdorf where Nagash's crown is.

So the Nagash we are trying to portray is more like Greater Daemon Nagash, rather than god Nagash.

GW policy about mages - well thats not true, Greater Daemons are a perfect example of this.

In fact after talking about the above I am once again starting to err more towards the 4th edition walking giant, as I remember. The model side of things doesn't apply. There is no set model for the spirit & body version either, so you could use any model you converted.

Hmmmmmm

 

[Sir Justin the Damned]

thanks Don for clearing that up for me i obv havent read any of this fluff are there any links?
well maybe kemmler and manfred need to be in the list? also why isnt he dirrectly connected to nefetra in the silver pinnacle surely the first of the vampires would be in contact with her master?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Because she detests Nagash as do all the vampires, since he effectively enslaved all the masters and used them as the commanders of his army. When I say he uses them, I mean he uses them without their knowledge, subtly guiding them with magic, false visions, misinformation etc. So obviously Kemmler and Mannfred could not be in the list.

The source I am referring to is the 4th edition Undead book.

 

[Sir Justin the Damned]

how comes people think kemmler and manfred are his pawns then? and i suppose that makes sense that they dont like him very much! how comes melkhior is in the "provisional" list of special characters then apart from being being trained by w'soran and being abit mad

p.s. if melkhior is to be in the list is it possible if i could have a crack at the rules?

 

[Crovax Accendant Evincar]

it hints in the von carstein trilogy that Mannfred is his pawn,at the begining of the third book Mannfred is fleeing through the desert from something "dark" that he can just percieve,he cant remember who or where he is and hes holding a book of horible power and loathing (one of the 9 books?) he has the urge to feed and his memory comes back,it doesnt mention that hes seen or been taught by nagash but hints towards it,i agree with DoN that hes a defintely controling him very subtley,like tampered with him or something,hes well to proud to serve him willingly lol,id say Heinrich Kemmler would be the same,but would willingly learn from Nagash if he could but would just be controled any way,used to use Kemmler in my 4th ed army he was cool lol

 

[Sir Justin the Damned]

just like GW to make things clear!
thanks crovax

 

[Crovax Accendant Evincar]

tis alrite my friend

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok, so back on track as whilst I love to discuss the fluff of Nagash, this is not the place.

I think what I will do is draw up some rules for Nagash from the 4th edition. We can then compare the two.

If we still can't decide then we may have to put it to forum vote, presenting both versions and letting others decide.

 

[Marcus Von Drac]

Sounds fair to me. Leave me out of the rules making though, I have no idea how powerful to make him.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Nagash - Supreme Lord of the Undead

Nagash - M 6 / WS 8 / BS 5 / S 6 (7) / T 6 / W 7 / I 6 / A 5 / Ld 10

Nagash is a Lord and a Rare choice and must be the army general.

Equipment

Black Armour of Nagash
Forged from a meteorite that crashed into Crippled Peak, this armour has formed a second skin on Nagash’s body, proving to be nigh on impenetrable.
Grants 2+ Armour save and 4+ Ward save

Staff of Power
Nagash’s withered hands still hold this potent artefact, which the ancient Liche created to aid him with his most devastating spells
At the end of each magic phase the Staff more store upto 2 unused PD / DD, which then may be used in the following magic phase. These can be used by the Spirit of Nagash only. The staff starts the battle with 1PD already stored.

Ninth Book of Nagash
The final Book of Nagash has never been seen by any other that the Great Lord of Undeath. Though there are many copies, none contain the full power or knowledge contained in this sacred tome.
This book combines the effects of all the previous Books of Nagash (1 to 8).

Mortis - The Great Blade of Death
This six foot blade is wrapped in dreadful enchantments, designed to feed on the souls it encounters and give them to its dark master
Adds +1 to Nagash's strength. In addition any wound caused by this blade automatically heals any one wound on Nagash. This may not take him over his starting number of wounds.

Options
Nagash may take a unit of Pinnacle Guard as bodyguard. They may take the same options as per the army list and cost the same amount of points, with the exception that they may take a magical standard upto 75pts. This unit does not take up an additional special slot. If taken the Protect Until the Last rule applies.

Magic
Level 4 Wizard (due to the Powers of the Ninth Book of Nagash knows all spells from the Lore of Nagash, and may choose four other spells from the Lores of Shadows, Death, Fire or Metal)

May cast all four Rituals per turn.

Special Rules
Undead

Warped Monstrosity
As the years has progressed the constant exposure and use of warpstone have wreaked horrific changes on Nagash's body, changing him from the man he once was into a 16ft skeletal giant that exudes an aura of death and decay
Nagash causes Terror and any models within 6" suffer a -1 to any leadership based test or attacks, cumulative with any other modifiers. In addition Nagash is classed as a Large Target and will not benefit from the Look Out Sir! rule if in a unit.

Protect until the last
Empowered by their Lord and Master, the Pinnacle Guard will stop at nothing to protect him
Nagash may be placed in the centre of the unit (or as near as possible). It will only move into the front rank when there are insufficient ranks.
If challenged, any Pinnacle Guard may accept a challenge, not just the champion.

Creator of Necromancy
As the creator of this foul art, Nagash knows it better than anyone one else, and casts it with unparalleled skill and power.
Nagash generates one extra PD and DD in the relevant magic phases than normal, and he gains +2 to casting form the Lore of Nagash, +1 to cast from any other Lore.
Any Rituals cast by him are at power level of D3 + 6.
In addition any miscasts made when casting from the Lore of Nagash are immediate ignored. The spell fails and the magic phase is immediately ended.
There is also no limit to the amount of PD Nagash may use to cast a spell.


Ok, so there we have Nagash - 4th edition version. A 16 foot tall kick-arse-casting machine. So compare him with the Spirit and Body version up the list and let me know what you think?

 

[doombunny666]

we cant have nagash at his hieght because then an empire fan will make rules for sigmar who is actually the missing primarch from 40k until recentley when they just went missing and im sorry but he would just kill everyone so no we cant have nagash at his hieght i dont mean to be a dictator but thats just stupid nagash at his hieght would destroy armies in a turn

also

The Plague Standard-75pts

At the start of the game before deployment role a dice for every unit in the enemy army on a 4,5,6 it loses d3 wounds or models and these are added to a zombie skeleton etc unit

i just thought id add this because nagashs plague almost destroyed alcadizzars armies


also can i add that if anyone is willing to help i am going to start a army project for alcadizzar or a similar tomb kings descendants (living) army im thinking pikemen and chariots with camel riders kinda a mix between persians and ottomans not necessarily strong but masses of pike blocks please say if your interested

 

[Arion]

There is NO connection between the world of Fantasy and 40k, they are not in the same universe. It is quite simple.

Anyway...
I'm assuming you want me to point nagash? But a few problems.
1. Can he benefit from "Look out sir!", can he be picked out in his unit?
2. Mortis, does it heal one wound, like the blood drinker, or ALL wounds, as the wording seems to imply?
3. I6? he is 14ft tall, why does he move faster than some elves?
4. He isn't a large target?


He is essentially a slightly better body+spirit together. Methinks.

 

[TMS]

3. I6? he is 14ft tall, why does he move faster than some elves?

Tell that to the Bloodthirster with his I9.

It could well be explained that Nagash's body has become so suffused with magic (which it obviously has) that the laws of nature is more or less null to him.

I'll agree with Arion that Nagash should definately be a large target, although I'm pretty sure that it was simply left out accidentally.

 

[doombunny666]

he need sto be a large target and regaining all wounds from a single attack is just rape of the rules hell be impossible to kill also what about hochland long rifles can they pick him out???


um arion there is no link sigmar fell through the warp this led him to the warhammer world chaos is in both so there is no physical link just a warp link (chaos is kinda messy) seriously read some old background books or ask a older GW staff member the old sotry used tobe he fell through now its just we dont know what happened typical GW skiving when it comes to background sections

oh yeah i drew a standard for you guys on paint (i know kinda sucks but its a base idea to be worked on

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Firstly Doombunny - this is not Nagash at the height of his power, far from it. At the height of his power Nagash would have crumpled Sigmar with barely an effort, he wasn't just a demi-god like Sigmar, he was pretty much the full thing. It took Nagash being killed once, loosing a lot of his power coming back from Death, lossing some power because his soul is now split in three (his body, claw & crown), and even then Sigmar only just beat him and suffered a grevious wound in return. No one has ever faced Nagash in his full power, the first time he was killed he was basically comatose.

So back on subject, this is Nagash in his current weakened state, in which the 4th edition showed him being on par with Greater Daemons.

In regards to his I, I am working off the fact he was an extremely skilled warrior in life and death, the skills of which he hasn't forgotten, and also looking at the stats created for him in the 4th edition showed him being that fast. No doubt his skills honed over many many years (don't forget Nagash fought hand to hand with Sigmar and only just lost), and also as MS said, no doubt his magically enhanced body helps.

About him being a large target, yes he should be, an oversight on my part that will be amended, and no he will not benefit from look out sir! due to his size. In fact after thinking over it I have created the Warped Monstrosity rule.

I have amended his sword to show he heals one wound per wound inflicted.

How does it look now?


Oh, and Doombunny, Arion is quite right. GW took the official stance a few years back that the Fantasy and 40k universes are not connected in anyway, so any information prior to that is now incorrect.

 

[Arion]

Looks good now.