Shortcomings of Regeneration

[Vespian]

So I was looking at the Drakenhof Banner and I'm convinced it is really not worth 125 points in 8th edition.


"Wounds caused by Flaming Attacks (as described earlier in this section) cannot be regenerated, and if a unit is wounded by a Flaming Attack it loses the Regeneration rule for the remainder of the phase (it can be used later in the turn, though - it just takes a short time for the Regeneration to overcome the flames)."

-Rulebook

Shooting Phase -
What this tells me is that one flaming arrow wound negates the regeneration of the banner and that the following barrage of war machine templates land without mitigation.

Close Combat Phase -
If a character with a flaming close combat weapon and a higher initiative kills one model in a unit then the rest of the character's units also avoid the regeneration save even though they don't have flaming weapons.

This seems broken. I can understand negating regeneration on a monster or a character but on a unit doesn't make any sense.

Am I seeing this incorrectly or is this just really an overpriced banner?

 

[Mesayah]

Yep, it really has been hurt in 8th edition, I noticed this early on as I used to use plague bearers for my deamons, we have to pay 115 points to get regen by choosing a herald. we don't even get both saves in an ideal situation, never mind if we get hit by flaming attacks.

 

[hairyjeff]

Sucks

 

[Seneschal]

Yes, it's really unfortunate. This is why I prefer Grave Guard with shields and no BSB. The strength 6 is great but everyone and their brother has flaming attacks somewhere in their army so all you end up having is a really expensive Wight King who usefullness is almost completely negated.
Strenght 4 with KB isn't bad, alot of armies are still wary of moving certain units at them. Plus, Lore of Light and Danse's ASF spells work in tandem with cheaper Grave Guard.

 

[Trevy the Great]

Oh no! The Drakenhof banner will be negated for a single round of shooting! That's horrible! xD

Seriously, though, it may be an expensive banner but it is for good reason. If that unit does meet an enemy not equipped with flaming attacks it is damn difficult to shift. Even so, it forces your opponent to deploy his flaming troops to take on your Grave Guard which are easily raise-able and not shabby in combat without the regen save anyway while allowing other regenerating units like Varghulfs to run around unhindered.
Man, I wish I had something like this banner for my Beastmen or Lizardmen. That would be awesome!

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Vekky is right. The Drakenhof banner has gone from something that was possibly OP, to actually being balanced in my opinion.

Instead of it being an insta-win button, it now requires a bit more thought. You need to be careful about who you are engaging, thoughtful of the counters that may have rather than blindly charging in knowing you can weather all they may throw at you.

That being said, it is still a very potent item. If the enemy does not have flaming attacks that unit is bloody hard to shift, and you can also redeploy the BSB to provide this toughness to whichever unit needs it.

The only thing that winds me up is people still saying it is OP, tourney's limiting its use etc. It is certainly not OP any more, but I still think a useful took if used carefully.

 

[Vorizah Vukotic]

I suppose that some people still think of it as overpowered because they lack regen in their armies? or assume the rules are the same as 7th? and because they dont play it often, I assume that they are not aware of it's short commings. However anyone who reads the the BRB from cover to cover would not think it's overpowered,

so it really depends if your opponent realises or not the slight rule change from 7th to 8th as to whether they think it's overpowered.

As for my self i think considering the plethora of flamming attacks now available has reduced it's effectiveness so maybe a points reduction would be nice lol if it's still around in the future that is...........

 

[Count Lasombra]

I don't use it myself..due to the reasons you've cited,I think they need to drop it to 100 points.I still think it's very powerful,and gives one an enormous advantage over unprepared enemies.

 

[Vorizah Vukotic]

well seing as everyone and their uncle has flaming weapons now and that alot of magic ignores saves of all kinds I think that 75pts - 90pts would be a good price, comparing to other banners out there it's still good but not 100pts good.

well that's my opinion anyway I've only ever used it twice myself so not really an autority on the subject.

 

[Count Lasombra]

what makes it really powerful is that it gives the characters in the unit the save,that combined with any of the magical items that gives a 2 plus ward save vs.flaming attacks and you have a very hard to kill hero which you would have had to pay 35 to 45 points to protect in a comparable manner with a ward save.
Also..if you horde up you can protect most if not all of your core allotment with it.I don't use it b/c of people whining about it...same thing with big blocks of GG...but if I punk you with ghouls and spirit hosts and other sub-optimal choices...you just gotta take it,no excuses.

 

[Seneschal]

It's true that the Dragonhelm and Dragonbane Gem combo well with the 'Hoff but I would still give my vampire a ward save if I placed her in that unit since KB attacks are quite frequent nowadays (especially with the TK's spell).
The book has been out for awhile and folks know to target the BSB with any Killing Blow swings they can.
I feel the 'Hoff works best on a block of knights who can outmaneuver potenital threats better.

 

[Danceman]

Hoff' banner used to be a crutch, now it's just good tool for a reasonable price. Regen was too frequent to the point where every monster had to have that type of save.

What you want is the cadaverous cuirass + gem with that unit. Saves you against both special rules which upsets your regen.

 

[Aren]

Hm, comparing us with our undead cousins-theyd give anything for regen on monsters, because 5+ ARMOUR sv on monsters fails, miserably. As for the banner, I'd much rather see a banner for say 100pts that brings back d6 guys back as in IoN but that cant be disspelled. Fits the theme musch more that Regen

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

An un-dispellable IoN - there would be more of outcry than there is against the Drakenhoff Banner. The item might not be that potent, but the fact there is no way to counter it (apart from the very rare null items / spells) would have them shouting red leicestershire all over the place.

As far as I am concerned the Drakenhoff banner is fine as it is in the current edition.