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Some tactic hints agains Darkelves?

Juljima

Skeleton
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
51
#1
Hello guys!

This weekend me and a friend will come to blows for the first time. He's playing darkelves, a race I know very little about and haven't much experience with.

Since he just begun collecting DE and I VC we decided on a 1500pts point limit.

Things I know he will bring is: a hydra, witch elves, some of the riding magic dudes and then mostly crossbowmen.

So if you have any hints you wanna share this is your chance :tongue:

Note, it does't have to be a complete novel of how-to-play-agains-darkelves,-a-walkthrou-for-dummies sort of thing. Just some plain tactic inputs and/or personal experience :tongue:

Cheers!
Juljima
 

eggsPR

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
1,139
#2
Deploy in a corner and deny a flank. Don't let him get around your other flank to shoot you. Gaze of Nagash is great vs dark riders and xbowmen/witch elves. Raise dead spell in front of witch elves to force frenzy overruns at odd angles to set up flank counter charge. 8th ed hydras are not anywhere near as scary as 7th ed hydras once were. Corpse carts make your guys ASF, denying them their ASF rerolls :)
Good luck
 
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
Messages
47
#4
Getting rid of the warlocks I think is priority, they are a pain in the backside. I have found black knights and ethereal units to be good against dark elves happy hunting :)
 
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
8
#5
eggsPR said:
Corpse carts make your guys ASF, denying them their ASF rerolls :)
Getting ASF would mean that you strike simultaneously against other ASF troops, regardless of initiative, which potentially matters if you're expecting to lose a lot of models from his attacks. But it doesn't over-rule their ASF, so they'd still get their re-rolls so long as their initiative is equal to or higher than yours (and your ASF troops wouldn't get re-rolls if your I was lower than theirs).
 
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
38
#7
ferny said:
eggsPR said:
Corpse carts make your guys ASF, denying them their ASF rerolls :)
Getting ASF would mean that you strike simultaneously against other ASF troops, regardless of initiative, which potentially matters if you're expecting to lose a lot of models from his attacks. But it doesn't over-rule their ASF, so they'd still get their re-rolls so long as their initiative is equal to or higher than yours (and your ASF troops wouldn't get re-rolls if your I was lower than theirs).
I don't have a rule book on me, but I'm pretty certain that this is incorrect. I've certainly never played it that way before
 
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
38
#8
I just Googled it and found this thread. The High Elf forum say the same. ASF vs ASF = you lose your rerolls no matter what your Initiative

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33847
 

Kromathus

Grave Guard
Joined
Aug 11, 2008
Messages
227
#9
The Dead Rat said:
ferny said:
eggsPR said:
Corpse carts make your guys ASF, denying them their ASF rerolls :)


Getting ASF would mean that you strike simultaneously against other ASF troops, regardless of initiative, which potentially matters if you're expecting to lose a lot of models from his attacks. But it doesn't over-rule their ASF, so they'd still get their re-rolls so long as their initiative is equal to or higher than yours (and your ASF troops wouldn't get re-rolls if your I was lower than theirs).
I don't have a rule book on me, but I'm pretty certain that this is incorrect. I've certainly never played it that way before
BRB page 66 - always strike first

"If the model with this rule is fighting an enemy with the same ability, attacks are made simultaneously, and neither model benefits from the re-rolls normally granted by this rule."

Seems pretty straight forward to me.
 

eggsPR

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
1,139
#10
ASF against ASF = no rerolls and all the attacks are made simultaneously. Initiative doesn't come into play here.

However we can get can hels :)
 
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
Messages
708
#13
Best tactic ive found so far is to completely outdeploy him, and i mean really outdeploy. Win the chaff war is crucial and redirecting whatever are his real killing units is absolutely mandatory. I know this kinds sounds like our tactic in general but Darkelves have very bad stats for our army.

1. theyre better at magic. If he uses lore of Dark magic its terrifying against us,
- Power of darkness absolute must to try and dispel, not only gives +1s on the unit the caster is in, he can add d3 powerdice to his pool.
- Doombolt, obviously killing for all our ethereals, monsters, chariots, even against blackknights
- Word of Pain, Dispel mandatory, any good Darkelf player will try increased version, only 12+ to cast it decreases so many important stats for us that if that happens to land on a unit that gets in combat.... youre in a really bad shape
- Bladewind, less impressive but nonetheless, a weaponskilltest with s4-ap hits is not what undead are really after. Its a good tarpit reducer
- Arnzipals black horror, havent seen it often but still a very nasty spell.
Problem is that with any of his damagespells, if cast and wounds are unsaved, he gets to do another 2d6 s1-ap hits, 3d6 if he rolled a triple. Believe me it sucks.

2. all his units, and i mean all his units, are basically better at fighting than any of ours. I have found to be every combat that is not completely unbalanced (i.e. horde GG vs 5 darkriders) to be really challenging where they basically have the advantage everytime simply from ASF-rerolls and murderous prowess.

3. they have pretty kickass-shooting, boltthrowers are insane, potentially lethal each turn to monsters, knights, chariots.Try defeating those things with wolves is not even possible. Horde of repeater xbows with a cauldron for rerolls to wound can also be really painful.


The few successes ive had were often based on:
-Failed fear tests (unlikely but some games you get lucky)
-Not fielding terrorgheists but rather spend more points in specials.
-Have 2 units that can kill rather than one. That one blackknightbus often proves expensive and vulnerable, making you depending on magics which you do not want. Ive found that darkelves are hard to defeat if you put your power in a single unit, rather use 2 or 3 potentially really dangerous and harder to kill threats that can control a flank and your movement.
-lots and lots of small zombie units
-at least 2 spirit hosts:ghost::ghost:, never field one unless you really have to
-Your vampirelord/strigoi tooled for total carnage is what will win you the game. He can singlehandly destroy so much with Sword of Bloodshed its not even funny. Especcially the strigoi, 8 attacks hit on 3 with rerolls to hit every round, against any de-infantry its 7 hits, 6 wounds,+ 6 attacks, 5 hits, 4 wounds = 10 wounds. No magic needed :thumbsup: Just make sure theres something next to him with Nightshroud for reroll-cancel
 

Melle

Sir Larpsalot, champion of larpers
True Blood
Joined
Apr 7, 2012
Messages
1,154
#15
Skittelz1981 said:
Squeeking a batswarm in a combat can be golden as well
i would love getting a batswarm against me when im playing my darkelves. those bats will just go poof and contribute to vc loosing combat by more and then crumble like hell.
batswarms are debated elsewhere, either they work for you or they dont, but they ALWAYS bleed combat ress

also, unfortunately there's alot errors in your last post, skittelz.
lore attribute gives 2d6/3d6 str1 ap if you roll double or tripple when casting damage, MM or hex spells. it doesnt trigger on wounds.

murderous prowess and/or cauldron dont give rerolls to missile fire. only close combat. i know you can extrspolating it to a RAW sense it does give it to xbows, but come on, murderous prowess is a closecombat rule.

wolves are exellent at taking out boltthrowers. they are very fragile.
 

Juljima

Skeleton
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
51
#16
Hello guys!

Thank you for the wonderfull advise. The battle was canceled but is planned to take place next weekend instead. Therefore you are not to late if you have any more "aces up your sleeves" xD

also, i've decided to go with hexies. Mostly becasuse of how great fun they are and because i know my friend is gonna fear them.
 

Kromathus

Grave Guard
Joined
Aug 11, 2008
Messages
227
#17
I've got a 1500pt league game on Sunday against a DE player. I'll put up my list and a brief description on how each unit went
 
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
Messages
708
#18
Juljima said:
Hello guys!

Thank you for the wonderfull advise. The battle was canceled but is planned to take place next weekend instead. Therefore you are not to late if you have any more "aces up your sleeves" xD

also, i've decided to go with hexies. Mostly becasuse of how great fun they are and because i know my friend is gonna fear them.
Watch out for doombolt :D
or
A hero on pegasus with Chillblade.
 
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
Messages
708
#20
Melle said:
Skittelz1981 said:
Squeeking a batswarm in a combat can be golden as well
i would love getting a batswarm against me when im playing my darkelves. those bats will just go poof and contribute to vc loosing combat by more and then crumble like hell.
batswarms are debated elsewhere, either they work for you or they dont, but they ALWAYS bleed combat ress

also, unfortunately there's alot errors in your last post, skittelz.
lore attribute gives 2d6/3d6 str1 ap if you roll double or tripple when casting damage, MM or hex spells. it doesnt trigger on wounds.

murderous prowess and/or cauldron dont give rerolls to missile fire. only close combat. i know you can extrspolating it to a RAW sense it does give it to xbows, but come on, murderous prowess is a closecombat rule.

wolves are exellent at taking out boltthrowers. they are very fragile.


Well i wouldnt call that alot of errors tbh. The lore attribute idd youre right but it still sux to get that extra hits.

About the cauldron, that is a Tug of war, yes/no discussion.
The Cauldron clearly does NOT specify that it is supposed for Close Combat. It simply rules: Any unit within 6" may reroll failed To Wound.
The cauldron rerolls have nothing to do with Murderous Prowess except that the units need to have that rule to be able to reroll all failed to wound rolls. So unless FAQ/errata, i think this can be considered as RAW where the rerolls apply to xbowmen on their shooting. But if in your Meta no one does it, then its your luck/loss. I allow it even if it is absolutely not in my favor, in my judgement it is written as it is and thus applicable as such.

Wolves excellent at taking out botlthrowers? lol i field alot of wolves and i dont recall ever destroying a boltthrower with them; they get shot down before reaching target and when they reach the target ASF rerolls and murderous prowess often kills so many that i barely have anything left to attack with.
Id say the wolves are really effective at being shot at and possibly taking 2-3 turns before being wiped, which already is great. But in cc with darkelves, those wolves are just suck, at least in my experience and i play those darkies weekly.
 

Juljima

Skeleton
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
51
#21
My friend and I played our planned battle yesterday. I thought about it and decided that since my friend just would bring everything he had to the game he had no real way of tailoring his army for the encounter I wouldnt do that either.

That said, I just did a funny list in no way tailored for DE. The game was a blast and ended in a draw, we both had a very good time.

Next time we meet it might not be as casual as yesterday though so your inputs and advise was not in vain xD

Cheers!
Juljima
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,091
#22
Skittelz1981 said:
Wolves excellent at taking out botlthrowers? lol i field alot of wolves and i dont recall ever destroying a boltthrower with them; they get shot down before reaching target and when they reach the target ASF rerolls and murderous prowess often kills so many that i barely have anything left to attack with.
Id say the wolves are really effective at being shot at and possibly taking 2-3 turns before being wiped, which already is great. But in cc with darkelves, those wolves are just suck, at least in my experience and i play those darkies weekly.
I've always had great success with my wolves against bolt throwers. They're sure thing to obliterate it in combat (even with the ASF and murderous prowess) so your opponent has to deal with them, often over committing resources, spending hundreds of points over multiple turns to deal with an 80 point Dire Wolf unit. I usually try to place my wolves so that my opponent is faced with a choice: Ignore the wolves and lose his warmachines, or focus on the wolves and try to delete them. I'm happy with either outcome, because I've effectively put him between a rock and a hard place.
 
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
Messages
708
#23
I know what it is supposed to do on paper.
Yet in all my games against DE, his boltthrowers have been out of reach. He always fields 3/4 and never, and i mean NEVER, has any wolfpack succeeded in destroying one. Simply getting shot at kills usually 3 on average/boltthrower (i never field my wolves larger than 5 only rarely), then once in combat they cant all attack and at least 1 or 2 get killed and thats pretty much done for.

I usually ignore the boltthrowers and try to get as much in combat as i can, using the wolves as shootingbait and redirectors but i seized trying to kill the boltthrowers with the wolves. Just doesnt work out.
 

Yorga

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Messages
1,850
#24
Skittelz1981 said:
I know what it is supposed to do on paper.
Yet in all my games against DE, his boltthrowers have been out of reach. He always fields 3/4 and never, and i mean NEVER, has any wolfpack succeeded in destroying one. Simply getting shot at kills usually 3 on average/boltthrower (i never field my wolves larger than 5 only rarely), then once in combat they cant all attack and at least 1 or 2 get killed and thats pretty much done for.

I usually ignore the boltthrowers and try to get as much in combat as i can, using the wolves as shootingbait and redirectors but i seized trying to kill the boltthrowers with the wolves. Just doesnt work out.
My experience against any warmachine is similar. You need to send in the fliers. Wolves won't get there. Vargheist can be on them on turn two.
 
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