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Something for our zombies.

Joined
Sep 20, 2012
Messages
131
#1
Of course I know that any of these "It would be fun" won't ever happen and all this is just kind of "smalltalk", but this is what just came my mind.

Something for zombies over all. It could be fun if zombies, that have more ranks than opponent, that zombieblock could "push opponent backwards". Something like str test times how many more ranks zombieblock have against opponent? When zombieblock win that test, the opponen is forsed to move 1 inch backward. And of course, brainless zombies will follow.

Every time when zombies "push enemy backwards" they lost 1 leadership and won't gain it back as long there are any zombie left in that fight.

So zombies could just push enemy "down to edge".
Zombies cant push largetargets no matter of tests.
 

Vipoid

Necromancer
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
875
#2
Kappu said:
Of course I know that any of these "It would be fun" won't ever happen and all this is just kind of "smalltalk", but this is what just came my mind.

Something for zombies over all. It could be fun if zombies, that have more ranks than opponent, that zombieblock could "push opponent backwards". Something like str test times how many more ranks zombieblock have against opponent? When zombieblock win that test, the opponen is forsed to move 1 inch backward. And of course, brainless zombies will follow.

Every time when zombies "push enemy backwards" they lost 1 leadership and won't gain it back as long there are any zombie left in that fight.

So zombies could just push enemy "down to edge".
Zombies cant push largetargets no matter of tests.
I'd like models killed in combat by zombies to immediately be added to the zombie ranks.

Then the only task is to work out a way for zombies to kill models...
 

hairyjeff

Crypt Horror
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
583
#3
Personally, I don't mind zombies awful WS, or IN, but I believe they should be very strong( maybe 5) and very tough ( at least 4). They should also regenerate ( they are being magically re-animated, after all) and should re-absorb at least some of the casualties they inflict as new Z's. after that, we just need fear and terror to do anything, and we are back in the game.
 

Vipoid

Necromancer
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
875
#4
hairyjeff said:
Personally, I don't mind zombies awful WS, or IN, but I believe they should be very strong( maybe 5) and very tough ( at least 4). They should also regenerate ( they are being magically re-animated, after all) and should re-absorb at least some of the casualties they inflict as new Z's. after that, we just need fear and terror to do anything, and we are back in the game.
I think that would be a bit much.

For a start, they're just reanimated humanoids - there's no reason for them to be as strong as a Vampire Lord. As it stands, you're basically making undead trolls as core.

Now, admittedly, that would be awsome thing to have as core :thumbsup: - but I just don't think it should apply to zombies.

Also, it would probably render crypt horrors obsolete - since you now have a similar unit, but one which can be taken as core.
 

hairyjeff

Crypt Horror
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
583
#5
I see your point. Trouble for me is that I loathe both crypt horrors and ghouls- they just don't fit into my thoughts of an undead army. Although, obviously, my kind of zombie would cost a lot more points. Hey, it's just a personal taste thing- I don't like chocolate either.
 

Vipoid

Necromancer
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
875
#6
hairyjeff said:
I see your point. Trouble for me is that I loathe both crypt horrors and ghouls- they just don't fit into my thoughts of an undead army.
Gotta be Werewolves then. xD
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,091
#8
The biggest problem with Zombies, and Undead in general is the crumble rule. Apart from leaving the undead in the lurch as every other race got better with steadfast and re-rollable everything from BSBs, it's counter intuitive and just plain silly. Why would zombies care that their fellow undead are being destroyed, and collapse out of sympathy? And why would a Necromancer find it harder to control a unit as it is defeated in combat? Surely it would be easier since there are now less of them?

I think the biggest fix would be to change the Undead rule so that instead of unstable, all undead troops are unbreakable instead but must take crumble tests at the start of any turn where they find themselves more than 12" from a wizard using the lore of vampires, or 18" of the general. Don't know what you'd do with Vampiric troops. I'd like to just make them unbreakable as well but probably you'd just make them stubborn instead.
 

Vipoid

Necromancer
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
875
#9
Blutsauger said:
The biggest problem with Zombies, and Undead in general is the crumble rule. Apart from leaving the undead in the lurch as every other race got better with steadfast and re-rollable everything from BSBs, it's counter intuitive and just plain silly. Why would zombies care that their fellow undead are being destroyed, and collapse out of sympathy? And why would a Necromancer find it harder to control a unit as it is defeated in combat? Surely it would be easier since there are now less of them?

I think the biggest fix would be to change the Undead rule so that instead of unstable, all undead troops are unbreakable instead but must take crumble tests at the start of any turn where they find themselves more than 12" from a wizard using the lore of vampires, or 18" of the general. Don't know what you'd do with Vampiric troops. I'd like to just make them unbreakable as well but probably you'd just make them stubborn instead.
I think this is certainly a more fluffy idea.

The current rules just don't make sense to me. If destroying undead makes the magic controlling them unstable, why does it only come into effect when they lose combat? Surely it should happen whenever they take casualties - even if they're from shooting or magic. Hell, you'd think that exploding from magic would be the most likely thing to interfere with their own magic.
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
1,091
#10
Vipoid said:
I think this is certainly a more fluffy idea.

The current rules just don't make sense to me. If destroying undead makes the magic controlling them unstable, why does it only come into effect when they lose combat? Surely it should happen whenever they take casualties - even if they're from shooting or magic. Hell, you'd think that exploding from magic would be the most likely thing to interfere with their own magic.
I think more importantly, it just doesn't feel right. I've never seen a movie or read a book where destroying one undead caused others nearby to fall down in sympathy. Can you imagine it? On the Walking Dead, they shoot two zombies and two others just fall down as well? Or on Blade where he cuts one Vampire in half and another one just explodes as well? And why should a powerful, self sustaining Vampire care if a few zombies are killed nearby? Why would he suddenly crumble to dust as well?

That's the most unforgivable thing in my opinion.
 

Aren

Crypt Horror
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Messages
513
#11
I think that : anything vampiric and necromancer should not crumble. The reason being that these units didn't have to be raised from the dead, they are not corpses forced to live with magic but rather beings of their own will which choose to be in the army. As such crumble on them seems silly. For everything else I actually quite like crumble, it has a lot of flavour. Zombies I think only need the poisoned rule to make them good enough, and it makes sense as they are rotting husks. The "we kill one of you and you come back as one of us" doesn't fit. These are Warhammer zombies, as such THEY ARE NOT A DISEASE. They are reanimated corpses and not mutilated humans. So they do not "spread the infection" but they can poison people with their rot. Anyway the rule for raising more than start size covers all that.
 

Vipoid

Necromancer
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
875
#12
Blutsauger said:
I think more importantly, it just doesn't feel right. I've never seen a movie or read a book where destroying one undead caused others nearby to fall down in sympathy. Can you imagine it? On the Walking Dead, they shoot two zombies and two others just fall down as well? Or on Blade where he cuts one Vampire in half and another one just explodes as well? And why should a powerful, self sustaining Vampire care if a few zombies are killed nearby? Why would he suddenly crumble to dust as well?

That's the most unforgivable thing in my opinion.
I know what you mean - it's one of those aspects when the rules really jar with the background.

I think the other aspect is that it detracts from the fear/horror aspect of Vampire Counts - the image of a living tide approaching you, growing stronger and more numerous with every kill. The inevitability as your comrades fall one by one, dragged down by sheer numbers - whilst each monstrosity you kill soon rises again to continue the attack.

But, when killing a zombie causes another zombie - or even a vampire - to explode in sympathy, you drop the horror and enter the world of Monty Python.
 

heldantes

Black Knight
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
393
#13
My thoughts:
totally agree about the lack of sense in vampires/necromancers being affected by crumble

otherwise, I think without crumble we would be too advantaged by having no units that can end up running away or losing their ws to 1. I remember once watching half my skaven army run off the board in turn 2 due to some awful ld rolls...ugh. Yay for ITP.
 

Aren

Crypt Horror
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Messages
513
#14
Also, why should our units replenish or gain in number if we kill a few models? Do zombies have some magical aura that brings the dead back to life? Nope, it's the necromancers/ vampires who do that. So I think it should be "for every model killed within 12 inches of a vampire/ necromancer wizard roll a d6. On a roll of a 6 the closest unit to the model that was killed gains a model equipped the same as the rest of the unit. Also, if the model was infantry then he can only join that type of unit, same goes for mounted, MI, Flying etc etc. "

How about that? Doesn't seem too overpowered and would be quite fun IMO.
 
Joined
Oct 27, 2013
Messages
76
#15
The issue with crumble is that it's more a game balance conceit than anything else, although it can work-ish from fluff. Personally though, I'm not sure crumble is needed as a balancing factor. Fear is nowhere near as potent as it was, and our core is very underwhelming. The fact that the core is, aside of being unbreakable (and the ability to resurrect, see synergy below), no better than any other core.

But it's the typical Kelly Codex. Analyse individual things, and some seem overly conservative. Form an effective synergy from multiple units however, and there does start to be demonstrative reasons why Kelly has such restraints in place.

Besides, as an Old School Undead fan, I think Zombies get enough love. Being so easy to raise from the dead is the best benefit for them. They're pretty much perfect. It's the core rules that are at fault imo.

Besides, I'd be heartbroken if Zombies got better. I'm deliberately taking Skellies... even though it's not the wisest option.
 
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