Starting Vampire Counts in ToW 1k

[Nomad]

Hello!

I want to bring to the counsel of the wise the following list for the Old World. The army doesnt play up like i'm more used to in AoS with heaps of BK, but I like seeing, learning and trying to master other tactical aspects of our legions.

As well to get me painting other units!

list would go as follows:

===
Pintando plan [949 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Vampire Counts
===

++ Characters [201 pts] ++

Vampire Thrall [111 pts]
- Additional Hand weapon
- Light armour
- Level 1 Wizard
- General
- On foot
- Dark Magic

Necromantic Acolyte [90 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 2 Wizard
- On foot
- Necromancy

++ Core Units [317 pts] ++

20 Skeleton Warriors [135 pts]
- Thrusting spears & Shields
- Light armour
- Skeleton Champion
- Standard bearer
- Musician

30 Zombies [90 pts]
- Hand weapon

5 Dire Wolves [46 pts]
- Claws and Fangs (Hand weapons)
- Doom Wolf

5 Dire Wolves [46 pts]
- Claws and Fangs (Hand weapons)
- Doom Wolf

++ Special Units [190 pts] ++

3 Vargheists [190 pts]
- Wicked Claws
- Vargoyle

++ Rare Units [241 pts] ++

5 Blood Knights [241 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances & Shields
- Iron-Shod Hooves
- Full plate Armor & Barding
- Kastellan
- Standard bearer
- Musician


50 points remain for magic items and the such.

Let me know your thoughts and suggestions.

thanks!

 

[Darkmoon9]

Nice work, though I would drop the armor on the vampire thrall, you can’t actually cast spells in armor this edition. Meaning that the options for armor and wizard levels are mutually exclusive.

 

[Nomad]

Thanks! will definitely take that into consideration. Tbh I received the rule book yesterday and haven't got to reading through it completely. But just opening it I had the urge to build a list or two

 

[Sception]

Whoops, forgot to actually hit "post reply"

Anyway, some rules issues.

As mentioned, wizards cannot cast or dispel while wearing armor or carrying a shield *unless* either the wizard or the armor/shield says otherwise. Vampire Counts have access to a single piece of magic armor, the flayed hauberk, that can be worn by a wizard without penalty, so that's one option. That's 35 points for a 5+ armor save & 6+ ward, which is maybe a bit pricey for what it does. I like it for vampires on barded nightmares, where the armor will stack with the barding for a more respectable 4+ armor save. Otherwise, imo you're probably better off with the 30 point talisman of protection for a flat 5+ ward on top of their built in 5+ regen.

Vargheists are a rare choice in the current rule set. You can take a single unit as special if your general is a Ghoul King, but that's not the case in this list. As is, you have too many points in rare for 1,000 points, & will need to drop either the vargheists or the blood knights until you get to a higher points value. That or swap hero options around to get a ghoul king in there.

On the subject of charaacters, in general one of the stronger heroes will go further for you than two weaker heroes, especially when it comes to wizards. Enough stronger that your local scene might ask players not to take "lord" level heroes in 1000 point games, in which case you're fine, but otherwise you might want to see if you can rearrange heroes to get a level 4 necromancer or a level 3 (via Master of the Black Arts) Vampire Lord or Ghoul King. If you have to drop the vargheists, that should supply most of the points you need to push either the necromancer or the vampire up to their higher level versions.

Battle Standards are really good for undead armies. Not only do they reduce crumble, they let you re-roll leadership tests to activate critical healing abilities. It might not be possible to fit one in at 1000 points, especially if you're pushing for a lord at the same time, but it's something to look at. If you go for a necro lord and vampire hero, then the necromancer can be your general and the vampire thrall can carry a battle standard.

speaking of healing abilities, even if its only equivalent to a level one necromancer, dark acolyte is still a good choice to put on a vampire hero.

Remember that strength does not automatically reduce armor saves in this edition, so you might want to grab a weapon on your vampire that has some AP built in. Yes the great weapon hurts your initiative, but imo it's still a better choice than additional hand weapon on a melee character if you can't afford a cheap magic weapon with some ap like the biting blade or sword of might. 2+ saves are less common in this edition, but they do happen.

............

In general, other than the vargheist thing, I think you're on the right path. My current 1k point list is fairly similar:

++ Characters [381 pts] ++
Vampire Count [314 pts]
(Great Weapon, No armour, Level 2 Wizard, General, On foot, Talisman of Protection, Master Of The Black Arts, Dark Acolyte, Necromancy)

Wight Lord [67 pts]
(Hand weapon, Heavy armour, Shield, Battle Standard Bearer, On foot)

++ Core Units [398 pts] ++
20 Zombies [70 pts]
(Hand weapon, Standard bearer, Musician)

5 Dire Wolves [46 pts]
(Claws and Fangs (Hand weapons), Doom Wolf)

22 Grave Guard [282 pts]
(Great weapons (replace shields), Heavy armour, Seneschal, Standard bearer, Musician)

++ Rare Units [216 pts] ++
5 Blood Knights [216 pts]
(Hand weapons, Lances & Shields, Iron-Shod Hooves, Heavy Armor & Barding, Kastellan, Standard bearer, Musician)

Created with "Old World Builder"
[Old World Builder - Army builder for Warhammer: The Old World and Warhammer Fantasy Battles]
---

The Vampire Count and Wight Lord join the grave guard to make a 6x4 or 8x3 block. Vampire usually takes Hellish Vigour as their default spell, but might go with Dwellers Below, the necromancy signature spell, if the opponent has access to high magic, if only to have a way to threaten enemy units under the effect of 'Walk Between Worlds' in combat. Seriously, Walk Between Worlds is a major threat. Don't forget that your blood knights have magic hand weapons - you lose your lance bonuses but it can still save you. Ethereal Phoenix Guard are no joke.

The list is fairly stripped down in order to afford the Vampire Count, grave guard, and black knights. No magic banners, no magic weapon on the lord, no full plate on the blood knights. Only 20 zombies (though keep in mind zombies can be raised above starting strength, and the vampire does have dark acolyte). I could strip out unit command, but I hate doing that aesthetically.

 

[Nomad]

Whoops, forgot to actually hit "post reply"

Anyway, some rules issues.

As mentioned, wizards cannot cast or dispel while wearing armor or carrying a shield *unless* either the wizard or the armor/shield says otherwise. Vampire Counts have access to a single piece of magic armor, the flayed hauberk, that can be worn by a wizard without penalty, so that's one option. That's 35 points for a 5+ armor save & 6+ ward, which is maybe a bit pricey for what it does. I like it for vampires on barded nightmares, where the armor will stack with the barding for a more respectable 4+ armor save. Otherwise, imo you're probably better off with the 30 point talisman of protection for a flat 5+ ward on top of their built in 5+ regen.

Vargheists are a rare choice in the current rule set. You can take a single unit as special if your general is a Ghoul King, but that's not the case in this list. As is, you have too many points in rare for 1,000 points, & will need to drop either the vargheists or the blood knights until you get to a higher points value. That or swap hero options around to get a ghoul king in there.

On the subject of charaacters, in general one of the stronger heroes will go further for you than two weaker heroes, especially when it comes to wizards. Enough stronger that your local scene might ask players not to take "lord" level heroes in 1000 point games, in which case you're fine, but otherwise you might want to see if you can rearrange heroes to get a level 4 necromancer or a level 3 (via Master of the Black Arts) Vampire Lord or Ghoul King. If you have to drop the vargheists, that should supply most of the points you need to push either the necromancer or the vampire up to their higher level versions.

Battle Standards are really good for undead armies. Not only do they reduce crumble, they let you re-roll leadership tests to activate critical healing abilities. It might not be possible to fit one in at 1000 points, especially if you're pushing for a lord at the same time, but it's something to look at. If you go for a necro lord and vampire hero, then the necromancer can be your general and the vampire thrall can carry a battle standard.

speaking of healing abilities, even if its only equivalent to a level one necromancer, dark acolyte is still a good choice to put on a vampire hero.

Remember that strength does not automatically reduce armor saves in this edition, so you might want to grab a weapon on your vampire that has some AP built in. Yes the great weapon hurts your initiative, but imo it's still a better choice than additional hand weapon on a melee character if you can't afford a cheap magic weapon with some ap like the biting blade or sword of might. 2+ saves are less common in this edition, but they do happen.

............

In general, other than the vargheist thing, I think you're on the right path. My current 1k point list is fairly similar:

++ Characters [381 pts] ++
Vampire Count [314 pts]
(Great Weapon, No armour, Level 2 Wizard, General, On foot, Talisman of Protection, Master Of The Black Arts, Dark Acolyte, Necromancy)

Wight Lord [67 pts]
(Hand weapon, Heavy armour, Shield, Battle Standard Bearer, On foot)

++ Core Units [398 pts] ++
20 Zombies [70 pts]
(Hand weapon, Standard bearer, Musician)

5 Dire Wolves [46 pts]
(Claws and Fangs (Hand weapons), Doom Wolf)

22 Grave Guard [282 pts]
(Great weapons (replace shields), Heavy armour, Seneschal, Standard bearer, Musician)

++ Rare Units [216 pts] ++
5 Blood Knights [216 pts]
(Hand weapons, Lances & Shields, Iron-Shod Hooves, Heavy Armor & Barding, Kastellan, Standard bearer, Musician)

Created with "Old World Builder"
[Old World Builder - Army builder for Warhammer: The Old World and Warhammer Fantasy Battles]
---

The Vampire Count and Wight Lord join the grave guard to make a 6x4 or 8x3 block. Vampire usually takes Hellish Vigour as their default spell, but might go with Dwellers Below, the necromancy signature spell, if the opponent has access to high magic, if only to have a way to threaten enemy units under the effect of 'Walk Between Worlds' in combat. Seriously, Walk Between Worlds is a major threat. Don't forget that your blood knights have magic hand weapons - you lose your lance bonuses but it can still save you. Ethereal Phoenix Guard are no joke.

The list is fairly stripped down in order to afford the Vampire Count, grave guard, and black knights. No magic banners, no magic weapon on the lord, no full plate on the blood knights. Only 20 zombies (though keep in mind zombies can be raised above starting strength, and the vampire does have dark acolyte). I could strip out unit command, but I hate doing that aesthetically.

My liege!

Many thanks for the enlightenment. And once again.. my apologies as I should have thoroughly RTFM

This is the updated list thanks to the comments provided by both:

++ Characters [350 pts] ++

Master Necromancer [245 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 4 Wizard
- General
- On foot
- Sceptre Of De Noirot
- Spell Familiar
- Hand Of Dust
- Necromancy

Vampire Thrall [105 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Light armour
- Shield
- Battle Standard Bearer (one per army)
- On foot
- Dark Magic

++ Core Units [363 pts] ++

28 Skeleton Warriors [183 pts]
- Thrusting spears & Shields
- Light armour
- Skeleton Champion
- Standard bearer
- Musician

30 Zombies [100 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Standard bearer
- Musician

5 Dire Wolves [40 pts]
- Claws and Fangs (Hand weapons)

5 Dire Wolves [40 pts]
- Claws and Fangs (Hand weapons)

++ Special Units [45 pts] ++

3 Fell Bats [45 pts]
- Claws and Fangs (Hand weapons)

++ Rare Units [241 pts] ++

5 Blood Knights [241 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances & Shields
- Iron-Shod Hooves
- Full plate Armor & Barding
- Kastellan
- Standard bearer
- Musician

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[Old World Builder - Army builder for Warhammer: The Old World and Warhammer Fantasy Battles]


To be honest, I do not like having a vampire character and the army being led by a Necromancer, but hey, I did promise myself I was going to try and play/discover the army in a different way (also, I'm trying to push myself into painting what I have left, so here we go..).

I've gone for the master caster in the form of the Lvl 4 Necromancer and set that Battle Standard Bearer in the Vampire with it's armor and all. Both will go with the Skellies. (let's see how I make ' em fit with all the base sizes).

Also, the Zombies now have a standard and a musician (not too fond of brainless thralls playing music but hey.. we have regetton as a music genre so.. guess it fits the narrative)

The Fell Bats are a way of getting the Vargheist in for the sake of painting acting as proxies. Have also thought in maybe dropping them and some skelletons/zombies/wolves/magic artifacts to "convert" use, some of the bat swarms from Cursed City and use some Bat Swarms instead. Guess I'll get cracking first with the painting and then we'll see.


Another option would be to drop some magic items for the sake of the Vampire being a wizard as well and having two casters. I suppose in the long run this could be more effective than the actual "combat vampire"..


Cheers!

 

[Nomad]

in fact, I've built a list with the latter option. Droping the Bats idea in general, reducing a bit the skelletons & zombies and making the Vampire a Wizard and giving him the talisman to last a bit longer holding that banner.

===
Necormancer's Delight [1000 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Vampire Counts
===

++ Characters [405 pts] ++

Master Necromancer [245 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 4 Wizard
- General
- On foot
- Sceptre Of De Noirot
- Spell Familiar
- Hand Of Dust
- Necromancy

Vampire Thrall [160 pts]
- Hand weapon
- No armour
- Level 1 Wizard
- Battle Standard Bearer (one per army)
- On foot
- Talisman of Protection
- Dark Magic

++ Core Units [354 pts] ++

28 Skeleton Warriors [183 pts]
- Thrusting spears & Shields
- Light armour
- Skeleton Champion
- Standard bearer
- Musician

27 Zombies [91 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Standard bearer
- Musician

5 Dire Wolves [40 pts]
- Claws and Fangs (Hand weapons)

5 Dire Wolves [40 pts]
- Claws and Fangs (Hand weapons)

++ Rare Units [241 pts] ++

5 Blood Knights [241 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances & Shields
- Iron-Shod Hooves
- Full plate Armor & Barding
- Kastellan
- Standard bearer
- Musician

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[Old World Builder - Army builder for Warhammer: The Old World and Warhammer Fantasy Battles]

 

[Sception]

These lists look good to me, at least for 1,000 points. Do keep in mind that, as is often the case for GW games, balance can be wonky at these smaller points values, so don't get too hung up on individual wins or losses.

Some other thoughts: skeleton warrior melee attacks are weak enough that the thrusting spears may not be worth the points. Of course, the spears look better, so I can't blame you if you keep them for aesthetic reasons.

Re: armies including vampires but being led by a necromancer, I find it helps to envision the role of 'general' in a Vamp Counts army more like the role of heirophant in Tomb Kings. They're not the guy in charge, they're just the one saddled with the job of raising and maintaining the lesser undead.

If you've seen the Netflix Castlevania series, consider the forgemasters in that show. They are generally subservient to the vampires, kept under tight control, living as followers, servants, prisoners, or even slaves to their vampire masters. But the forgemasters are the ones that create and maintain Vampires' hordes of night creatures, without which the vampires don't have the numbers to be a military threat. The vampires in that show can't raise night creatures themselves, the rituals must be performed by someone with a mortal soul or something, and thus the forgemasters are arguably the most critical linchpin to the vampire armies, even moreso than the vampires themselves. The vampires in charge can change as this one falls or that one rises to power and their war machine continues unabated, but when the forgemasters die or abandon the cause the war is just over. At best their night creatures fall to attrition as they suffer losses they can no longer replace. At worst the bulk of their army vanishes in an instant or even turns on the vampires outright.

The overall situation is very similar to a vampire counts army that includes vampires - mostly non-wizards putting their combat stats to use on the front line - with the load bearing responsibility of the "general" pawned off onto a necromancer secured in a bunker unit in your backfield, and imo that works pretty well from a narrative angle.

 

[Releonhardt]

So I've only played a couple of games of TOW so far (played previously in 8th all the way back to 5th but haven't played since the End Times), what I can tell you from my games so far is your Blood Knights absolutely will be your MVP unit. In all my games so far they have earned their points back and then some! If you have the points and allowance spare I can definitely recommend giving the Kastellan the Sword of Swiftness! That way he is always going to go first and can take a few people out of the enemy fighting rank (or challenge a Character) before they get any attacks back even if they get the drop on you with a charge (or coming into you on a flank/rear charge)

I've found Dire Wolves a little underwhelming, they make good War Machine hunters when your opponent doesn't have something equally fast, more often than not though they're going to be being used as screening for your knights to soak up arrows/bullets or as a speed bump to hold up an enemy unit just long enough for you to get your Knights into position for a charge!

most importantly though, have fun! experiment with different units and see what gels with your personal style!

 

[Nomad]

So I've only played a couple of games of TOW so far (played previously in 8th all the way back to 5th but haven't played since the End Times), what I can tell you from my games so far is your Blood Knights absolutely will be your MVP unit. In all my games so far they have earned their points back and then some! If you have the points and allowance spare I can definitely recommend giving the Kastellan the Sword of Swiftness! That way he is always going to go first and can take a few people out of the enemy fighting rank (or challenge a Character) before they get any attacks back even if they get the drop on you with a charge (or coming into you on a flank/rear charge)

I've found Dire Wolves a little underwhelming, they make good War Machine hunters when your opponent doesn't have something equally fast, more often than not though they're going to be being used as screening for your knights to soak up arrows/bullets or as a speed bump to hold up an enemy unit just long enough for you to get your Knights into position for a charge!

most importantly though, have fun! experiment with different units and see what gels with your personal style!

my question to you, good sir, is; do magic items count on the units total point tally for the 25%? i mean, the unit as is with full CG & full plate armor goes up to 241. If you add the Sword of Swiftness it surpasses the 250 point limit. So, is it worth the sword the downgrade of the armor to heavy? (asking for a friend)

I suppose we would need to do the mathhammer. But as you say.. having wolves for screening might do the trick.

 

[Sception]

yes mqgic items on the unit champ/standard count towards special/rare allowance. you can't *fully* kit blood knights in 1k.

 

[Nomad]

yes mqgic items on the unit champ/standard count towards special/rare allowance. you can't *fully* kit blood knights in 1k.

neither in 2k.. because I will go for two units of Blood Knigts
Either way.. it will be a question of trying out the Full Plate wo the Sword, and the heavy armor with the sword.

Thanks!

 

[Releonhardt]

I've not tried them with Full Plate yet, I've just been rocking the Heavy Armour and thats been enough so far!