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Sunny & Najo’s Vampire Counts Handbook (2014)

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Demian

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Hi!

About the Summoning Guide, perhaps we should use white as a color to the spell's titles, so that it is not mistaken with the Rating colors?

:D excellent work, by the way, keep it up!
 

Adam_Barrow

Sleepless Knight
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Morghast Archai are worth putting in your army. 3-4 of them. Summon the Harbringer.

I personally own 4 Archai and 4 Harbringers. I've used them in every (2x1, 3x1, 4x1, 2x2) configuration and summoned them. Both units are awesome. Harbingers are a lawnmower and archai destroy armored units, monsters and characters.
Word. Pretty much only interested in one box. I may still do Archai for the can opener job they do. A lot of Chaos armor, Gromril armor, and 2+ Ithilmar around these parts.
 
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I think Mortis Engines deserve a better rating on the raising chart than yellow. Yeah they're underwhelming in early turns, but raising them up turn 4 or 5 will net you a pulse of S5 or 6 hits. Depending on the board position that may well be more damaging than a terrorgheist scream.

Not to mention that (unlike a terrorgheist) they will deal all of that damage even if they die. Raising one up as chaff top of 6 means that, should your opponent decide to charge it, he's looking at an 18" bubble of 2d6 S6. That can be devastating.
 

Adam_Barrow

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I think Mortis Engines deserve a better rating on the raising chart than yellow. Yeah they're underwhelming in early turns, but raising them up turn 4 or 5 will net you a pulse of S5 or 6 hits. Depending on the board position that may well be more damaging than a terrorgheist scream.

Not to mention that (unlike a terrorgheist) they will deal all of that damage even if they die. Raising one up as chaff top of 6 means that, should your opponent decide to charge it, he's looking at an 18" bubble of 2d6 S6. That can be devastating.
That's a slick trick. "Excuse me while I summon a bomb."
 

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
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I think Mortis Engines deserve a better rating on the raising chart than yellow. Yeah they're underwhelming in early turns, but raising them up turn 4 or 5 will net you a pulse of S5 or 6 hits. Depending on the board position that may well be more damaging than a terrorgheist scream.

Not to mention that (unlike a terrorgheist) they will deal all of that damage even if they die. Raising one up as chaff top of 6 means that, should your opponent decide to charge it, he's looking at an 18" bubble of 2d6 S6. That can be devastating.
Yeah, that is solid. We will get things tweaked shortly.
 
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Can't take credit for it myself. Apparently these were a key strategy used by Jacob Brandon (sp?) with his Tomb Kings summoning engine at the masters. Was quite impressed with the notion of late-game Mortis Engine bombs. Especially since terrorgheists are quite underwhelming in certain matchups (wood elves, for instance, with their high LD and general lack of any sort of armour).
 

The Sun King

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The Mortis Engine as a late-game cruiser missile is by no means a new idea as Johnny Crass and myself has been big proponents for this tactic for years, but summoning them gives them even more flexibility as they can get BEHIND enemy lines :)
 
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Hey guys. Great job! :)
After reviewing some beginner's lists and thinking about sunnies newest challenge to make the worst list, i got to the idea that the unit size is an important factor for the rating scale. Could you add recommended unit sizes? This especially helps, if there are different unit sizes that work but serve different purposes.

As an additional input i got from a skaven forum, you could add army list guidelines. For example for skaven those guidelines were 1body/10points, 1slave/20 points, 1hammer/1200 points (+ what unit a hammer is).
For vampires, guidelines could be #redirectors/points #tarpits/points #hammers/points. I`m really interested, what your guidelines will look like! :)
 

The Sun King

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@der vued Thank you very much! Recommended sizes is a both a good and a bad idea. With this handbook we wanted to present each unit and it's abilities, not in a vacuum but considering the synergies that you can bring to the table. This also means that the handbook avoids leaning towards certain builds, which is why recommended sizes would be contrary to our goal since they don't take the armylist of the player into account. In other words we wanted to keep the unit entries flexible so what we wrote could be used in different builds. If we then use recommended sizes we lean towards the cookie cutter way of making a certain list. BUT there are many veteran generals here on the forum that will be happy to oblige with recommended unit sizes. You could start a thread with that and try to collect all the information in the OP?

I am not sure I understand your army list guidelines, could you explain further?
 
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Maybe I can start a thread this weakend. As I'm more the assembling-and-only-play-sometimes-in-the-garage-type of player, I will need to check some more professional army lists before starting the thread.

one guidelines i can imagine is: ~1-1.5 units of redirector per 1000 points of army. redirectors are: wolves, fellbats, and spirit hosts.
does this sound like a useful guideline?
 

The Sun King

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@der vued : Ahh I understand now. Well those kind of guidelines does not make sense i broad terms as VC/UL can field many very different builds and each has its own guidelines.
 
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You can play vampires indeed very differently, but you will have hard times if you don`t bring redirectors - especially as a beginner. After looking at your "challenges" lists I feel even more convinced that this kind of guideline makes sense. You usally use 3-4 redirectors and nearly always 2-5 (in ~2.4k lists). Also note that they are guidelines for beginners and not rules for everyone. ;)

But I will postpone the guidrlines for now until the unit sizes are done.
 

najo

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Speaking as a 25 year veteran, I agree with @The Sun King. Redirectors are very useful, but deployment and movement is even more useful. So, certain armies don't need redirectors. Likewise, if you get technical about it, there are ways to use non-redirectors as redirectors AND their main role (be it anvil, hammer, tarpit, etc). Plus, since we have raise dead, redirectors are optional in VC armies. It real comes down to your meta, level of experience and preferred play style.

With that all said, a new player should take at least 2-4 units of redirectors in a 2000-3000 point game. It will more often than not help them control the game and execute their tactics more successfully. But there is no hard and fast rule like you are looking for. Army construction is both a science and an art. There is an instinct you trust when building your army, and hard rules to follow takes that instinct away. If you need those guidelines, you need more experience and to hon that instinct
 
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@najo thanks for your reply. I wanted to work on this topic tomorrow, but since AoS is released and it is really round bases, I'm afraid this would be wasted energy. :/

@The Sun King Here is a challenge for you, I have been struggling with (for fluff reasons) for some time now: Make the best list with following restrictions and tell me what your tactic with list would be:
- No Blenders. Your Vamps should focus on manipulative abilities.
- No "unestetic" units (ghouls, zombies, crypt horrors, vargheists, varghouls, terror gheists) and no bloodknights.
- No specials characters.
+ Ethereal is a plus.

Have fun :)
 

LordTobiothan

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:)
@The Sun King Here is a challenge for you, I have been struggling with (for fluff reasons) for some time now: Make the best list with following restrictions and tell me what your tactic with list would be:
- No Blenders. Your Vamps should focus on manipulative abilities.
- No "unestetic" units (ghouls, zombies, crypt horrors, vargheists, varghouls, terror gheists) and no bloodknights.
- No specials characters.
+ Ethereal is a plus.

Have fun :)
So ghost wall skeleton units. Under those restrictions you basically play really stupid lists.

Dual mortis engine, big skeleton units with a wall of 4 wraiths and a banshee at the front, and maybe a ghoul king with scabscraith to hunt down things with magic attacks.

Tactic is basically just to fight things that cant hurt you, seeing as youve removed every heavy hitter we have.

That exercise seemed pointless, ive run this vs a friend before, he asked me never to do it again and he won a minor victory
 
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@LordTobiothan indeed a valid solution to the problem. :)
Please note that these restrictions are given by fluff and not to invented to make list building hard. It is true that you miss most of the heavy hitters (GG still possible) and this makes it necessary to adopt your playstyle. you can no longer punch, you have to squeeze your enemy. This makes it more challenging and in my opinion interesting.

I just noticed that this is the wrong thread. Can an admin please move this to sunny's challenge thread?
 

LordTobiothan

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You left out every heavy hitter, grave guard at best punch through small heavily armored units, as soon as the unit in question has more then 10 models, grave guard have trouble putting them down with only ws 3 and 10 attacks.

Under those building restrictions, the only way to give yourself a chance to make it past turn 3 is to annoy the hell out of your opponent, because you wont have the damage to actually kill them, you'll either get a draw, a major loss, or a minor victory.
 
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Well I just found this now and must have read this guide about 10 times now!

As a new collector it's been incredible. Really hope you guys are still active on this cause really want to say thank you!
 

Irisado

Ancient Vampire Lord
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As this topic is nearly six years old, I very much doubt that this is still being worked on, so I am closing it. Should the original authors wish to restart it at any stage, please contact me about reopening this topic.
 
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